List Mgmt. 2025 List Management 📃

[carlton_99]

Fast forward to the moment a high ball comes in and its either Boyd, Ollie or Saad marking a taller opponent. I dont doubt two of these players are good and one is ok. I doubt the balance is right if 3 of these player in the same back 7.

We disagree on metres gained and that's fine - your reasoning behind your belief is solid and makes sense. I just think it's a stat that gets overanalysed in our game. Gaining metres isn't always the best option no matter where you play. Sometimes a 25m sideways kick that opens up the ground is better than a 40m punt down the line. I think metres gained just oversimplifies a very complex game. Same thing with disposals.

On your comments about Boyd, Ollie and Saad I do agree on one thing and that is Ollie. I think he will be a defensive liability. Light frame, small and hasn't trained for very long as a defender. He is there to provide us some drive off HB - however if it doesn't work out and his defensive issues become a real problem I trust the coaches to shift him back to the wing and replace him. We have other options with Docherty as you previously mentioned an obvious one. On Saad and Boyd we disagree - I think they are more than competent one-on-one defenders. Saad outside of that with his closing speed makes a very good defender because even if initially out of position he consistently gets their for a spoil or to put pressure on the opponent.

Now on your balance point and the likelihood of the smalls getting matched up on talls too often. I think having 4 defenders 190cm+ in Weitering, Haynes, McGovern and Cowan should allow us to cover the talls of most forwards in the competition pretty comfortably. If we find that Saad, Boyd and Ollie are too small in that backline we always have the option of changing things up with our current list. We have Docherty who is slightly taller, JSOS as you mentioned training back there and even Matt Carroll who impressed me massively in his first game last week as options.

So, yes it would be amazing if we had a Starcevich or Idun type in our backline. It would definitely improve the team. But if you just look at the defensive options we have at our disposal even with Newman out they can do a lot of things:

• Weitering ==> lockdown + intercepting + distributor
• Haynes ==> lockdown + intercepting
• McGovern ==> intercepting + distributor
• Cowan ==> lockdown + rebounding
• Saad ==> lockdown + rebounding + distributor
• Boyd ==> lockdown + distributor
• O.Hollands ==> rebounding + distributor

We have players capable of covering a lot of different types of roles back there. And the flexibility to change things up if they aren't working with Docherty, Silvagni, Young, Carroll, Wilson etc.

 

[carlton_99]

But Cowan would be fringe at either Pies or Lions developing in the VFL. So again, 'we have a problem houston'!!

Collingwood are currently playing McInnes in their defence in an attempt to fix their defensive issues. Moore is an elite interceptor but as an accountable defender leaves a lot to be desired. They then probably have to go two of McInnes, Frampton, Dean or an ageing Howe. None of these players are great defensively and with Moore also very questionable it doesn't leave them with much when defending talls. Obviously their mid-sized defenders like Maynard and Quaynor at their best are great and Houston is obviously an elite rebounder. But overall defensively it isn't great. They are also now converting J.Daicos into a HB after playing majority wing - similar to Ollie for us. And Josh Daicos is like 5cm smaller than Ollie.

 

[JustOneTime]

We disagree on metres gained and that's fine - your reasoning behind your belief is solid and makes sense. I just think it's a stat that gets overanalysed in our game. Gaining metres isn't always the best option no matter where you play. Sometimes a 25m sideways kick that opens up the ground is better than a 40m punt down the line. I think metres gained just oversimplifies a very complex game. Same thing with disposals.

On your comments about Boyd, Ollie and Saad I do agree on one thing and that is Ollie. I think he will be a defensive liability. Light frame, small and hasn't trained for very long as a defender. He is there to provide us some drive off HB - however if it doesn't work out and his defensive issues become a real problem I trust the coaches to shift him back to the wing and replace him. We have other options with Docherty as you previously mentioned an obvious one. On Saad and Boyd we disagree - I think they are more than competent one-on-one defenders. Saad outside of that with his closing speed makes a very good defender because even if initially out of position he consistently gets their for a spoil or to put pressure on the opponent.

Now on your balance point and the likelihood of the smalls getting matched up on talls too often. I think having 4 defenders 190cm+ in Weitering, Haynes, McGovern and Cowan should allow us to cover the talls of most forwards in the competition pretty comfortably. If we find that Saad, Boyd and Ollie are too small in that backline we always have the option of changing things up with our current list. We have Docherty who is slightly taller, JSOS as you mentioned training back there and even Matt Carroll who impressed me massively in his first game last week as options.

So, yes it would be amazing if we had a Starcevich or Idun type in our backline. It would definitely improve the team. But if you just look at the defensive options we have at our disposal even with Newman out they can do a lot of things:

• Weitering ==> lockdown + intercepting + distributor
• Haynes ==> lockdown + intercepting
• McGovern ==> intercepting + distributor
• Cowan ==> lockdown + rebounding
• Saad ==> lockdown + rebounding + distributor
• Boyd ==> lockdown + distributor
• O.Hollands ==> rebounding + distributor

We have players capable of covering a lot of different types of roles back there. And the flexibility to change things up if they aren't working with Docherty, Silvagni, Young, Carroll, Wilson etc.

You have made me feel better. And I do know I'm mostly on my own here with my penchant for metres gained. I have high hopes of silvagni bringing more of what i feel is missing...contesting harder for the ground and air balls. Just that desperation.

In terms of your post above on how bad Pies older defenders may play out...you could be right in 2025 as they collapse abit thru Howe and the crapness of Frampton etc...my analysis (i did add up stats on a piece of paper before i posted) was using the moneyball approach of using what they produced in 2024 as a basis for their 2025 output.

I'm quietly confident that Haynes and JSoS could work well together if JSoS makes it.

 

[carlton_99]

In terms of your post above on how bad Pies older defenders may play out...you could be right in 2025 as they collapse abit thru Howe and the crapness of Frampton etc...my analysis (i did add up stats on a piece of paper before i posted) was using the moneyball approach of using what they produced in 2024 as a basis for their 2025 output.

I still think Collingwood will be a very good team in 25' because they protect their back 7 with great overall team defence from their midfielders and forwards. I think this is the area we need to improve in 2025 - especially when it comes to the midfield. It is why I was always so against Cripps/Hewett/Kennedy at CBAs and what I think Voss was seeing when he dropped Hewett and/or made Kennedy sub at times last year. Too many ball hunters and none of them can spread from the contest effectively enough to delay opposition ball movement inside 50 when we don't win the clearance. Cerra is our best at this for me and I think him being out/injured was a major reason we went from the best side at defending stoppage in 2023 to the 3rd worst in 2024. I also think this is why we wanted Jagga so much who is also very effective at getting from inside to outside. With Kennedy gone surrounding Cripps/Hewett with the likes of Cerra/Walsh/E.Hollands in the midfield is going to be important to get that balance right.

 

[Red_man2008]

Collingwood are currently playing McInnes in their defence in an attempt to fix their defensive issues. Moore is an elite interceptor but as an accountable defender leaves a lot to be desired. They then probably have to go two of McInnes, Frampton, Dean or an ageing Howe. None of these players are great defensively and with Moore also very questionable it doesn't leave them with much when defending talls. Obviously their mid-sized defenders like Maynard and Quaynor at their best are great and Houston is obviously an elite rebounder. But overall defensively it isn't great. They are also now converting J.Daicos into a HB after playing majority wing - similar to Ollie for us. And Josh Daicos is like 5cm smaller than Ollie.

Watching them last night their backline was horrible defensively. If it was t got accuracy early Richmond would have been leading up to 1/2 time.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

It is not about Boyd. Though he is fringe 22. It is about mix. We dont want Boyd, Ollie and Saad in the same back 6 at the same time. We lose body on body, we lose marking and we lose intimidation. It Boyd or Ollie. and it is on austin to find a starcevich unless Cowan is his hanswer to that as a Starcevich light version. But Cowan would be fringe at either Pies or Lions developing in the VFL. So again, 'we have a problem houston'!!

Boyd and Saad have no issues defending an opponent. Neither does Cowan. All 3 have done plenty of lockdown jobs in the past with good results.

Are any of them as good as Starcevic at locking down an opponent? Probably not, but not many defenders in the league are.

If you asked me who was better defensively out of Quaynor, Boyd, Saad or Cowan in 2024 there's not a chance in hell I'm taking Quaynor, he was woeful last year. To the point where he got moved to a wing just to avoid him getting torched in the D50 over and over again.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

And just a reminder defensively, Carlton were a very strong team when it came to defending turnover - this is the hardest source to defend. Their sticking point was defending stoppage an area where they were the best in the comp in 2023 - so they have shown they can do it. For me the issue was more the midfield than anything but regardless the personnel back their have shown they have be a very strong defensive unit. They do however need support up the ground from the midfield and the forwards.

this. Imo it’s a result of coaching and having ball hunters (Walsh and Cripps)

We may lose some scoring power from stoppages but we have to be more defensively mined at them. No doubt you have to give up something but the scores against from stoppages last year was too much to keep on backing in what we were doing.

 

[Stamos]

In terms of list mgmt, I've personally gone on a continual moan about our defence not being that great and it is something that austin needs to address. I've felt we needed a second key back (low expense like a Payne/Collins); I've also felt that most of our backline like handball receives and dont have a true defensive profile; players like Boyd, Mcgovern, Kemp, young who are all weak physically and get pushed around. We can carry Saad, but not Saad and others who cant defend one on one or who are body light (boyd/Ollie).

So i dont really get excited by Boyd/Ollie/(last season the soft tall def in Kemp/young) and Saad when it comes to the component of one on one body defending.

Wait, you don't think Saad can defend one-on-one?
Rarely gets beaten.

 

[sparkybagger]

Wait, you don't think Saad can defend one-on-one?
Rarely gets beaten.

His closing speed is a thing of beauty to watch....

 

[BigFrizz36]

In terms of list mgmt, I've personally gone on a continual moan about our defence not being that great and it is something that austin needs to address. I've felt we needed a second key back (low expense like a Payne/Collins); I've also felt that most of our backline like handball receives and dont have a true defensive profile; players like Boyd, Mcgovern, Kemp, young who are all weak physically and get pushed around. We can carry Saad, but not Saad and others who cant defend one on one or who are body light (boyd/Ollie).

So i dont really get excited by Boyd/Ollie/(last season the soft tall def in Kemp/young) and Saad when it comes to the component of one on one body defending. I like them when it is rebound time. I dont like young at all, and poor Kemp just outsized and embarrassing. MCgovern is hit and miss and I dont think has a defenders mentality either; he has speed and a good kick. For Mcgovern, it is on his terms when he wants to be physical or completely avoid contact.

I do like cowan as a developing back but should still be in the VFL or 7th defender based on possessions he can gather. I like Weitering and I'm 100% that I would take Saad as that one small because of all of his other non-contested marking strengths. After that, Austin needs to get to work...or it is Vossy.

Another thing that frustrates me is over the last two years our smaller/thinner defenders who have to give up size/strength then dont use their counter advantage (rebound run, speed, and fast transition out of defence). They close up/lock up/get defensively scared and hold back trying their hardest not to be the reason for a goal (boyd/kemp/young surely). Carroll's two runs out of defence in the sim game so highlighted the lack of a straight line defensive running out of the backline. Saad zips left, zips right then makes his mind up in a split second without any planning in his head of where to kick it causing ...well causing chaos. No one can lead for Saad when he darts around like mad and then hook kicks it.

As an example to highlight what we need to fix...you profile the Pies defence and its balance of defending/attacking. Their list manager just brought in Houston/Perryman because of that balance requirement (lost Noble and Daicos/sidey not playing HBF in 2025). They've equally got defenders and rebounders who know 'AND' do their 'actual' role and the list manager sourced exp because Pies are in their window like 8 other teams. At Carlton, we have players like Boyd/Ollie who are simply conundrum for us as one cant find the ball enough and the other isnt going to be able to hold his ground one on one due to his light frame. Our list manager did nothing in the off season to rectify this...not that it is easy to do.

So Weitering trumps Moore on defence and that is about it for mine. They overall have us covered for physical defending but annoying the hell out of me they have us for meters gained x possession adv too. Both components covered and i'm only talking back 7 and the creative drive it creates for fast transition and overlap goals (overlap goals they definitely score against us).

Finally, to complete my frustrating we have the match committee forcing square pegs into round holes (Boyd/Ollie) when actually Docherty and Williams are much better options back there and actually have produced the right level of defence/attack. People are quick to forget because of 2 free kicks against Williams that he played extremely well for GWS on the HBF, averaged 23 possies and 400+ metres gained that puts him WAY ahead of a developing Ollie and Boyd. But that is too obvious to try...a key area that is soo poor...rebound/fast transition out of defence.

Rant ended.

Go Boyd, go Cowan...i'll love your 14 possies each week (10 light of what it needs to be) and average metres gained. Ollie has osme hope but just not one-on-one.

Ok, I ranted a little more.

Did I say that I love the idea of JSoS...there..a positive to end it.

No mention of Carroll, Charleson, Wilson and O'Farrell who have been recently picked up to play defensive roles? Add those 4 to JSOS and hopefully Ison at 189cm third tall defender and Harry Dean and there's a completely new backline to put around Weitering and Cowan .

Probably not all of them will make it, pretty sure that they'll get their chances. Carroll was in the starting 23 last week.

 

[Lace_Out]

Has everyone forgotten about Ben Campo....
He will step up and fill a role I think...

Waiting for the bullets to come at me now... LoL [emoji38]

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There's talk his ankle infection is really bad and may sideline him for a big chunk of the season.

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[TrueQldBlue]

As I have mentioned before....
Owies must have done something to piss Vossy off ...
Or he didn't defend enough...I don't know what it was ...

BUT...now we have more small forwards than I can remember...

Are some of them going to have a run through the middle?

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[Coops93]

We’ve got some trading to do…

Who wants a broken 2nd hander..

Even at the time of signing Pittos length of contract seemed very generous from Carlton.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Even at the time of signing Pittos length of contract seemed very generous from Carlton.

Pitto has proven of value over that contract. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

Perfect ruck to have on the list with TDK.

 

[Coops93]

Pitto has proven of value over that contract. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

Perfect ruck to have on the list with TDK.

He's only been on the 4 year contract for 1 year and played 14 games, so he hasn't really proven to be of value in it just yet. We'll see in 3 years when HOK ideally will have overtaken him, and TDK in any case is the sole no.1 ruck.

I think for this year it's fine and ideally TDK is sole ruck for majority of the season with Pitto fine to sub in and out a handful of games, but beyond this year the 4 contract will seem 2 years too long imo.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

He's only been on the 4 year contract for 1 year and played 14 games, so he hasn't really proven to be of value in it just yet. We'll see in 3 years when HOK ideally will have overtaken him, and TDK in any case is the sole no.1 ruck.

I think for this year it's fine and ideally TDK is sole ruck for majority of the season with Pitto fine to sub in and out a handful of games, but beyond this year the 4 contract will seem 2 years 2 long imo.

Pitto is playing on an average contract and is servicable when needed. He's no TDK but he's a body that is capable of holding his own when called upon.

In a years time if HOK has passed him on by he'd be fine trade bait. Wouldn't get a heap for him but he's certainly not delisting material. Someone would want him.

0 issues with his contract. Durdin's was far more bizarre.

 

[Coona Blues]

It is not about Boyd. Though he is fringe 22. It is about mix. We dont want Boyd, Ollie and Saad in the same back 6 at the same time. We lose body on body, we lose marking and we lose intimidation. It Boyd or Ollie. and it is on austin to find a starcevich unless Cowan is his hanswer to that as a Starcevich light version. But Cowan would be fringe at either Pies or Lions developing in the VFL. So again, 'we have a problem houston'!!

You are criminally under rating Cowan. He may be one year short of optimum, but he is an absolute lock down back.

We have the cattle for a defensive group as good as most in the competition. I am not sure that we structure as well as we could. We appear to still function as individuals as opposed to a group. Losing Newman for the foreseeable future is a huge hit in that area.

I am hopeful that Nick Haynes can add some layers to the group. Through both experience and bringing intel from GWS, who are in the discussion for the best defensive group in the competition (even after Perryman and to a lesser extent Cumming moving on)

I know it doesn’t help with our season aspirations, but my focus regarding our defenders goes beyond our perceived staples like Saad and McGovern, unfortunately Newman as well, but I am somewhat hopeful he will hang around longer than the other pair if his body can hold up. He is a mentor.

Those “bitching” about our draft performance, and future requirements after Jagga’s short term demise will be forced to rethink. The Campo boys are borderline “first rounders” we gained for a steal. The big steal will be O’Farrell, was touted as a first rounder in early ratings and IS that quality.

Jack Silvagni will produce in any role thrown at him, and I am pleased he has been added to our defensive mix. He may not be a superstar, but he will do a job for us. He has been competing against the competitions biggest players in the ruck for a couple of years and has not been ragdolled very often. He has sufficient height and leap to compete against the 200cm key forwards if required. He has footy smarts which sadly his more mercurial predecessor Kemp lacks (I would love Kempy to play third tall defender long term - slightly less accountable than second key)

Mitch McGovern is in a contract year, so hopefully, at 30 years old, we will see more of good Gov than the too often unaccountable defender chasing stats. He seems to have found a new maturity with fatherhood, so I am quite hopeful. Both he and Haynes can play smaller, so a “four tall” defence is a real possibility.

I am confident all of Matt Carroll, Billy Wilson and Harry Charleson will make the grade as small/medium defenders. Lucas Camporeale could well excell down there too. Ollie Hollands adds another dimension with his run and ball carrying, it is a work in progress, but for now his input is necessary to help break some lines and add to our often lethargic transition. I won’t be surprised if Matt Duffy is pushing for game time by the business end if the season too (Not writing Monahan off, but coming from a long way back, we wasted a season of development trying to start him as a forward in a new game) I haven’t mentioned Boyd, who can become a staple, but admit I am still not as sold as some. He is wildly inconsistent with his levels, I am still trying to gauge if that is his issue or the way we are using him. At his best is a lock, but I am a yet to be convinced he brings it routinely. The other player who can definitely play a role is Cincotta when he returns from injury.

I don’t pretend that 2025 will give us a settled defensive group, but I have high hopes that we can rotate some excellent developing players through there along with meaningful contributions from the usual suspects. Also required is better pressure from up the ground, a fit Cerra and the grunt and RUN of Cooper Lord are likely to be critical in that space.

I suspect this year we are likely to draft father/son Harry Dean to complete our defensive future proofing, along with Jack Ison who shapes as a third tall utility probably best suited in defence from our NGA group.

 

[KJP7]

There's talk his ankle infection is really bad and may sideline him for a big chunk of the season.

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Was he not doing run throughs on the ground an hour before the St Kilda game?? It was light duties but looked to be on legs at least

 

[Beyond Blue]

Boyd and Saad have no issues defending an opponent. Neither does Cowan. All 3 have done plenty of lockdown jobs in the past with good results.

Are any of them as good as Starcevic at locking down an opponent? Probably not, but not many defenders in the league are.

If you asked me who was better defensively out of Quaynor, Boyd, Saad or Cowan in 2024 there's not a chance in hell I'm taking Quaynor, he was woeful last year. To the point where he got moved to a wing just to avoid him getting torched in the D50 over and over again.

Saad is a fine one-on-one defender. Boyd less so. Cowan is an ok one on one defender and has potential but he still gets a bit lost with his positioning.

I’d take Quaynor over Boyd (and probably Cowan too) every day of the week. Im not low on either but anyone thinking otherwise is overrating our own players.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Saad is a fine one-on-one defender. Boyd less so. Cowan is an ok one on one defender and has potential but he still gets a bit lost with his positioning.

I’d take Quaynor over Boyd (and probably Cowan too) every day of the week. Im not low on either but anyone thinking otherwise is overrating our own players.

Quaynor in 2023 yes, 2024 Quaynor was absolutely putrid. Were calls on masse to have him dropped or traded he was performing so bad.

 

[JustaBattler]

he was playing injured - Q/r is a gun

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

he was playing injured - Q/r is a gun

Wasn't playing with any injuries, that's coming straight from the Pies list team.

Just badly out of form and tried packing on too much muscle in the pre season to his detriment.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Pitto is playing on an average contract and is servicable when needed. He's no TDK but he's a body that is capable of holding his own when called upon.

In a years time if HOK has passed him on by he'd be fine trade bait. Wouldn't get a heap for him but he's certainly not delisting material. Someone would want him.

0 issues with his contract. Durdin's was far more bizarre.

Agreed. Even if everything went to plan (TDK re-signs and HOK improves substantially), we’d have absolutely no issue offloading Pitto without having to take on salary or give up picks. The ruck merry go round takes its course every year and he’s without a doubt one of the best back up rucks available. No real issues with his longer term deal.

 

[Coona Blues]

Wasn't playing with any injuries, that's coming straight from the Pies list team.

Just badly out of form and tried packing on too much muscle in the pre season to his detriment.

They tried to prepare him to take up some of the slack from Murphy who was ultra critical to them. Stuffed if I know why they wanted Houston when they needed size more than anything. They certainly have “different” list management philosophies.

 

[JustaBattler]

Wasn't playing with any injuries, that's coming straight from the Pies list team.

Just badly out of form and tried packing on too much muscle in the pre season to his detriment.

not the story from the usual Collingwood nuffies - oh well hope his form continues.