List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[TheJackal]

One thing that needs clarification is this constant rabbiting that we have money we need to spend or we lose it. That is not really correct is it. What is actually the truth is that in 2022 we paid 95% of the cap meaning that in any of the next 4 years we could spend up to 105% of the cap. We then repeated the process in 23,24 and 25. If we don't spend 105% in 2026 we don't lose any money. We could in fact pay 95% of the cap again this year which would mean we could shift the overpay down another 12 months.

I would argue that currently as we are a mid to bottom table side we should be paying below 100% anyway.

Factoring in contracts paid forward and my head just about rolls off its shoulders.

Unless we have the facts and figures, this is impossible to properly understand where we sit.

 

[Sully111]

A bit out there - don't hate on me - but with the loss of Jimmy, I'd like to see Garcia tried as a small defender. IMO he would be more valuable in that position for us than as another mid.
We're thin on other options and will have enough midfield depth.

A puppy just died

 

[SinCitySainter]

Factoring in contracts paid forward and my head just about rolls off its shoulders.

Unless we have the facts and figures, this is impossible to properly understand where we sit.

I agree completely but my point was around the idea that it is use it or lose it. We don't actually lose anything.

 

[SaintSteele9]

Give Windy the years and just tweak the dollars ffs get it done

 

[ScrappyDo]

I agree completely but my point was around the idea that it is use it or lose it. We don't actually lose anything.

Hmm l don't think clubs want to toddle along at minimum spend just because they can..

 

[sauce_head]

One thing that needs clarification is this constant rabbiting that we have money we need to spend or we lose it. That is not really correct is it. What is actually the truth is that in 2022 we paid 95% of the cap meaning that in any of the next 4 years we could spend up to 105% of the cap. We then repeated the process in 23,24 and 25. If we don't spend 105% in 2026 we don't lose any money. We could in fact pay 95% of the cap again this year which would mean we could shift the overpay down another 12 months.

I would argue that currently as we are a mid to bottom table side we should be paying below 100% anyway.

Part of the problem came in that our list was not even good enough to pay 95%, which is why we had some salary dumps to ensure we don’t pay the lesser players too much to meet the 95% threshold and then create a situation where everybody wants it. I had thought that the bonus paid to senior players were to reach 95%, but not entirely sure.

 

[Remboy]

Part of the problem came in that our list was not even good enough to pay 95%, which is why we had some salary dumps to ensure we don’t pay the lesser players too much to meet the 95% threshold and then create a situation where everybody wants it. I had thought that the bonus paid to senior players were to reach 95%, but not entirely sure.

Caro said earlier in the year we were front ending contracts just to get to 95% and that without the front ending we'd be close to 85%.

 

[BrutThough]

Caro said earlier in the year we were front ending contracts just to get to 95% and that without the front ending we'd be close to 85%.

Add in that we were also paying Billings and Crouch to not play for us as well.

 

[JG22]

Give Windy the years and just tweak the dollars ffs get it done

Stay firm with 2 years at 450.

He can't kick.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Possible 2026 Team- dont get ya knickers in a knot, just a what if?

That's if? we obtain all the players we seem to have interest in.

B. Hastie JSOS Wilkie

H.B. Flanders Aleer Sinclair

C. Voss Hall Windhager

H.F. Ryan  Keeler Wilson

F. Sharman King Higgins

Foll. TDK NWM MacKenzie

l/C. Boxshall, Garcia, Henry, Owens, Phillipou

Caminiti & Howard & Tauru not there

or Butler, Clark, Hill, Macrae, Marshall, Steele or Wood

 

[TheJackal]

Who do Flanders and Mackenzie push out of our midfield?

That's the question for me.

Garcia? No

Pou? hope not

Box? Shame

Trading Steele makes the most sense

I guess questions like these need to be answered brutally if we are getting someone in who is under 25. If the young guys we are getting in are pushing out anyone then that means we are getting stronger and that's a win.

 

[bwardi]

God I almost feel sorry for Carlton for a moment but then I read their bigfooty forums and remember they are a bunch of insufferable melts. I wish them great lack of success for a great amount of time.

 

[MrFoster]

You literally don't have to. You can keep organically growing and do the list build in a very slow deliberate low risk way. We are choosing to go hard next year and will need to gets some results for the fireworks. We have created a bit of hype and momentum by throwing cash around. It needs to translate to wins now.

I hope our training and medical staff get chucked out and started again. Keeping our players on the park is probably more important than recruiting at this stage.

I don't agree.

By your account, we should stick with a bottom 4-6 midfield (Marshall, Steele, Macrae, then the young mids) and hope they would magically grow into a power house without recruiting new players? Midfield is the key, we've been playing a defensive / pressure / flood game style for a decade because our midfield is too bad to compete head on e.g. have to bring two or more additional forwards for clearances.

Then there is the benefit of internal competition, with a Flanders / Mackenzie coming in, it raises the bar even higher, Garcia/Boxshall/Philipou need to go to a higher gear if they want to play midfield. Competition creates excellence, the reason why Dunstan, Billings, Acres did not succeed with us is also due to the poor list/standards we had.

 

[wannabewinner]

Ah why does period have to be so far away

The trick is to think of this thread as a collective load blowing station.

 

[Significant]

Does something like this work with Flanders, TDK, Ryan, JSOS/Aleer in?


SENIORS

FB: Wilkie, Howard, JSOS/Aleer
HB: Flanders, Caminiti, Sinclair
R: TDK, NWM, Steele
C: Wilson, Windhager, Henry
HF: Owens, Marshall, Sharman
FF: Higgins, King, Ryan
IC: Macrae, Philiipou, Hall, Garcia, Clark

RESERVES

FB: Stocker, Barrat, Hastie
HB: Schoenmaker, Tauru, Byrnes
R: Heath, Travaglia, Boxshall
C: Hill, Dow, Carroll
HF: Wood, Keeler, Butler
FF: Collard, Dodson, Said
IC: Armstrong, O'Connell

Only obvious gap I can see is for small defenders, with a bit too much height present.

I'd suggest a changing of the guard needs to happen, with Hill, Wood, and maybe to a lesser extent Stocker, Butler, Howard spending time at VFL, which would be a good thing, providing a lot of advice and guidance (along with Jones and Cordy if they hang around!) to the young blokes there.

Genuinely buoyed by the ambition, but the collection of the Dow's, Carroll's, etc. only adds to the ??? around what does our best team look like. If everyone played to their highest and best performance, it would make for finals football in both leagues AFAIC.

 

[OxSaint]

A bit out there - don't hate on me - but with the loss of Jimmy, I'd like to see Garcia tried as a small defender. IMO he would be more valuable in that position for us than as another mid.
We're thin on other options and will have enough midfield depth.

I always felt that was where windy was going to settle as we moved up the ladder and had less need for a tagger.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We’re not really doing too much damage if we restrict the ott offers to quality.

Nas we were cornered and had to do it. We tried to sign him for over a season and were outplayed by his team, Adelaide and port drove up the price but without the assets to satisfy us. If and when he leaves $2 million goes with him and picks/players come back.

TDK overpaying for a free agent is standard, how much is open to debate. Part 2 as I understand it was Marshall out and a pick in. With a front loaded deal, get a younger better ruckman.

Any of Flanders, Mackenzie, Walsh are all quality mids which we still badly need. The cost is the unknown but all are worth a first and good contract. If we want them there’s no way around it. Again part of that plan is Steele out, cash off the books a decent pick back and again we get younger and hopefully better.

Now we’re into the yeah it helps but don’t go crazy with the cash or picks bin.

Ryan would help but I’d be against paying overs in cash or picks, he also probably keeps Collard out. Question mark is does he replace Butler.

Silvagni is a free agent who’s a cash only guy plus 3 + 1 won’t cruel us long term.

Aleer I hope doesn’t happen if we get Silvagni but if it does it’s a little too long on a little too much.

I quite like what we’re doing as long as we retain Windhager I’ll be happy enough. It’s a risk but not a massive one and we’ve really been backed into it to some extent.

Still a lot to play out and a lot of if’s but with a fit list you’d fancy our chances to play finals. Nas must have delivered thousands of memberships, I bought 3 myself. So a finals list and probably record membership is something to celebrate imo.

Just sign windy !.

This.

 

[gringo2011]

Who do Flanders and Mackenzie push out of our midfield?

That's the question for me.

Garcia? No

Pou? hope not

Box? Shame

Trading Steele makes the most sense

Flanders best footy has been off HBF. Nas is playing a lot more on ball at the moment but it robs Peter to pay Paul. This gives us a doubling of a Sinclair type who can also go on-ball and impact. Being able to move them in and out depending on form and match up looks tasty AF.

 

[gringo2011]

I will bow to your greater judgement as I haven't watched Hawthorn all that often and when I have he looked pretty meh to me

I was talking Caldwell.

 

[SainterinSydney]

God I almost feel sorry for Carlton for a moment but then I read their bigfooty forums and remember they are a bunch of insufferable melts. I wish them great lack of success for a great amount of time.

Never feel sorry for Carlton. Never.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Does something like this work with Flanders, TDK, Ryan, JSOS/Aleer in?


SENIORS

FB: Wilkie, Howard, JSOS/Aleer
HB: Flanders, Caminiti, Sinclair
R: TDK, NWM, Steele
C: Wilson, Windhager, Henry
HF: Owens, Marshall, Sharman
FF: Higgins, King, Ryan
IC: Macrae, Philiipou, Hall, Garcia, Clark

RESERVES

FB: Stocker, Barrat, Hastie
HB: Schoenmaker, Tauru, Byrnes
R: Heath, Travaglia, Boxshall
C: Hill, Dow, Carroll
HF: Wood, Keeler, Butler
FF: Collard, Dodson, Said
IC: Armstrong, O'Connell

Only obvious gap I can see is for small defenders, with a bit too much height present.

I'd suggest a changing of the guard needs to happen, with Hill, Wood, and maybe to a lesser extent Stocker, Butler, Howard spending time at VFL, which would be a good thing, providing a lot of advice and guidance (along with Jones and Cordy if they hang around!) to the young blokes there.

Genuinely buoyed by the ambition, but the collection of the Dow's, Carroll's, etc. only adds to the ??? around what does our best team look like. If everyone played to their highest and best performance, it would make for finals football in both leagues AFAIC.

Some seem to be banking alot on Marshall being a forward. Hasn't ever really shown it.
With another pre-season, l'd prefer Keeler there rather than Marshall.
Seems more natural to him at least.

 

[Falchoon]

if we could keep one out of marshall or steele which one would you keep?

Marshall by a mile.

we don't have a CHF, we don't have a forward who naturally moves towards the ball (Owens does), King is a back shoulder player, Sharman is a cutter (comes in from the side) Mason Wood is more comfortable moving towards goal, Marshall moves towards the ball, not quite Stewie Loewe style but in that direction, and he can kick!

Please play Marshall at CHF.

and King can't yet be banked upon.

Steele is being overtaken by numerous mids (including Windy) and we're talking of bringing 2 more in.

 

[gringo2011]

Is this all together accurate though? From the little we know, the thing that sticks out for the future is that no SC increases have been built into current contracts. According to RTB on Agenda Setters when NAZ signed, us and Essendon are the only two clubs to do this.
For us it means any increase will be excess to what we have in contracts currently. For other clubs it may mean stress if the SC doesn't go up the total expected.
Look, valid concerns when cash is splashed. Can it go t1ts up? Well history shows we have one flag in 150 years so chances are yes.
However we are all sick of 15 years of mediocrity. The strategy has been worked out in the environment of AFL corruption towards destroying the balance of the competition by favouring clubs with NGA's and FS for nothing picks.
We tried to fill out the list in 2019, got us to finals but was not satisfactory. We have drafted pretty well, used our mature aged rookies pretty well and seemingly managed contracts well enough that SoS could go to senior players managers and give them substantial bonuses because, as Ross put it, he had 'money left over in the cap'.
I am not over excited with the shopping list, Flanders seems the best, however as a whole I think they make the team better.
In the future we WILL have cap issues, however I am hoping it is because we have become a consistent top 8 team and there is pressure to keep star players.
With that comes the chance that good players want to come to the Saints as we are successful, something we have to buy at the moment.

It will still bite at some point. 2027 looks like list Armageddon if we are struggling and or we have a heap of kids that come on and want a pay day. Cap space is infinite. A lot of our old guys are well paid but haven't been on huge coin. It's not like Wilkie coming out of contract will cover Nas or TDK. TDK is probably on something like three times Wilkie's wage next year.

There is a lot of kicking the can down the road. We really need to make hay next 2 years and build a side that players want to stay involved in.

 

[jimmytigs]

The Korn being nice to us? Whats going on there.

doesnt like us but despises hawthorn,salivating over the prospect of anyone giving them grief,then if they win out well its only the saints in his mind

he is excited about a possible win with no real downside

 

[gringo2011]

Could we trade winhager + Clark for future first from North, onsell it for mckenzie, trade Marshall for a late first from cats, onsell that for Flanders. Midfield improved out of sight, keep steele, keep pick 7

Add TDK and JSOS and we improve massively

Windhager just doesn't make any sense to let go. He's the type we should be chasing and Cmac is a downgrade at this point and certainly no guarantee that he'll end up a better player long term either.

Marshall going makes sense because it's really rare that two rucks has worked. If we could turn him into Flanders I think it probably adds to the midfield mix. Not sure that we need both CMac and Flanders.