List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[PJays]

You can't answer with a solution so you have no argument.
All you have is who you DON'T want to get but nothing with who you do want to get.
Moot and irrelevant.

Show me where Saints management have specifically said Saints are so far under the 95% that we must find someone to pay.

 

[TheJackal]

Windy. Another great white hope on the stkilda board.

What has he done to warrant a bigger contract?

You literally just replied with the same hypothetical in my post.

Whilst I don't disagree with your sentiment, I just wanted to point out that the list rebuild is a delicate balance. Our indigenous boys are a tight knit group and Windy lives with Nas and Mitchito.

Plenty of premiership teams have players who 'accepted less to stay together', that's what building a team culture can do.

I'm being a bit hypocritical because I am all for paying whatever it takes to get a grade talent through the door. But I hope we don't blow up the young group we are building to do so.

 

[BigMonty]

Marshall is worth a frdp and a 2rdp.
TDK costs nothing in draft capital.

The big question is who is out there that we can get with 2xfrdp and 2x 2rdp in a compromised draft?

If we finish with say pick 8 and say 10.
They move out to 12 and 14 with academy picks, then play Marshall and TDK.

But if we get a top 5 pick then maybe that works....lots to play out before the rubber hits the road.

GCS and Brions will have to move on good footballers to facilitate their academies maybe we can get out snout in the trough.

Who needs Marshal?
WCE,....early pick
Blues irony there. pick 10 ish
Cats pick 13ish

Think I would keep Marshall for that.
Who knows..maybe depends on how King pulls up later this season

 

[Saints43]

You don't need a good ruck. You do need good mids and key backs.

He's like Marshall, he's like an extra mid.
But he's a better ruckman and improving.
Have you watched much of him? He could be anything.

 

[PJays]

He's like Marshall, he's like an extra mid.
But he's a better ruckman and improving.
Have you watched much of him? He could be anything

I haven't seen a huge amount

Do tell, if he's so good, why is he turning 26 in July with a grand total of one top 10 B&F finish? Being 7th last year?

Is he just a late bloomer?

 

[Saints43]

I haven't seen a huge amount

Do tell, if he's so good, why is he turning 26 in July with a grand total of one top 10 B&F finish? Being 7th last year?

Is he just a late bloomer?

He's 25. It's not that old for a ruckman.
And he's got coaches votes in plenty of games he's played in this year I'm pretty sure.
He came 7th in their b&f last year from 18 games. And if he plays enough games he'll finish high in it this year.

Anyway, I hope he comes because we need star quality at the club and TDK has it. And he'll bring energy with it.

Edit: And it will almost certainly stuff any chance Carlton has of winning a flag before Cripps is finished.

 

[aidansbonor]

Speaking of "ridiculous acts of self-sabotage", where will this end up ranking in St Kilda's sorry history, in 10 years time when we look back?

- Leaving Tasmania

- Moving to Seaford

- Ignoring Essendon people who said to keep away from Andrew Lovett, who ended up being charged with raping someone at a team mate's house

- Letting Ross Lyon walk away

- Letting Chris Pelchen have carte blanche over list management

- Picking McCartin over Petracca and Jack Billings over Bontempelli

- Signing banged-up Dan Hannebery whose Dad knew Simon Lethlean, (allegedly) without adequate medicals, who played 18 games in 4 years and (allegedly) loved the party life

- Trading Blake Acres and a top 10 pick for Brad Hill who became our highest paid player but never placed in our B&F

- Continually promoting Lethlean after he was kicked out of the AFL, despite lacking evidence of any acumen, and plenty of evidence to the contrary

- Signing a pair of 31 year olds to 3 year deals (Hill and Wood) despite minimal risk of losing them elsewhere

Where will TDK fit?

In 10 years someone might be writing another list like this.

It might include:

"Paying TDK double what he was worth, to fill a list hole that didn't need filling, reducing possibilities for signing midfielders we desperately needed, while losing Rowan Marshall over it- St Kilda's best ruck of the last 25 years"

Would love to know why Hill got a 3 year contract other than being good mates with Ross.

Losing patience with this club, the rigged draft and the two flops in charge of the AFL.

Will break me if we lose NWM and we are paying TDK and King massive contracts just for them to both be 'touch and go' for round 1.

Also Dave Mission can kick rocks

 

[bakes10]

The issue I have with Bergman is that he seems neither here nor there. A good player but not great, and he’d cost a fair bit.

TDK I’d love to have but I reckon paying overs for 1 player is not a sustainable way to build a list.

I think what we need are a group of ‘protectors’ like in the early 2000’s where we drafted Lawrence, Hamill, Black, Gehrig etc. We get a few tough guys in and play them alongside all the good kids we have until the kids mature. Then once the protectors have played their part we give them the flick and trade in elite mature players alongside the more mature kids we have.

Maybe we’re already doing that but I think we look pretty soft at times and I don’t think we have enough strong and tough leaders, so we should look to get a couple in.

 

[jwint43]

Marshall could well request a trade anyway, and no one could begrudge him. I think if we got a first round pick for him it’s a win for both parties.

Agreed. It's painful because we all love Roma, but he's given absolutely everything he can to us for the last few years while playing sore most weeks, and it's gotten him two top 8 finishes for 1 finals win. I'm just as guilty as anyone for getting attached to players (Hunter Clark breakout anyday now) but I think Marshall and Steele are the two older players that can be moved on. Sinclair and Wilkie are the two we need to keep.

 

[jwint43]

We’ll never improve as a club if we’re too sentimental to our own.

Love Marshall, absolutely love him. But his major downside is his pure ruck work.

Great around the ground, but his contested and tap work can be upgraded on.

TDK is an improvement, maybe not right now, but in 3/4 years time when Marshall is slowing down, we hope to be a top 4 team with TDK in his prime.

Completely agree. I am seeing alot of people in here saying "we have a good ruck, why are we getting rid of him just to bring in another" without realising the actual on field effect. There's a reason we are targeting TDK, he is probably Carlton's most important player. Pittonet got murdered by Grundy who is not even half the player he used to be.

Marshall has severely limited our already weak midfield by being a poor tap ruckman, and his first instinct is to get the ball and kick it as far as he can. Great for fantasy, but doesn't help us win games. It's been an issue for a number of years but he has been so impressive with his effort and workrate that we've just kind of accepted it. We were a far better team with Ryder as main ruck and these issues were raised back when he took over as the main ruckman.

I love Roma but it's naive to just look at the names and not the on field impact, which is why none of us in here will ever be list managers.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Our out of contract players remaining at end of year. Who specifically are you spending 1.7m on?

• Mclennan
• Schoenmaker
• Howard
• Boyd
• Keeler
• Webster
• O’Connell
• Stocker
• Windhager
• Hall
• Heath
• Nas (already negotiating new contract subject to agreement)
• Byrnes
• Cordy
• Jones

 

[snails13]

The one I'd love is Rowell. We should throw the Callaghan money at him

Any current best 23 player at GC would be nuts to walk out the door in the next few years.

 

[snails13]

Wr have holes everywhere and he may fill one.
Would rather have kept Battle but that ship has sailed.
Without Howard and Battle we are a rabble, McLennon is not up to it, Irish is no key back, Hammer is ok but stop gap.

We have to pay millions over to even have a chance of getting a FA, we can't even retain our key backmen, how do we attract a Wietering type ( who knocked us back)? Aleer is not the panacea but he may give at least a chop out.

Funny how so many people on here were bagging comments on the people who wanted Rory Lobb when his name got mentioned in player movement.
How handy he would be right now

Wr have holes everywhere and he may fill one.
Would rather have kept Battle but that ship has sailed.
Without Howard and Battle we are a rabble, McLennon is not up to it, Irish is no key back, Hammer is ok but stop gap.

We have to pay millions over to even have a chance of getting a FA, we can't even retain our key backmen, how do we attract a Wietering type ( who knocked us back)? Aleer is not the panacea but he may give at least a chop out.

 

[CursingFijian]

Has excess consonants in his name.
Do not want.

F off you say?

 

[mad-saint-guy]

To everyone going on about "we have to pay someone!" - the difference between the salary cap and the salary floor this season is 677k. I don't see why we couldn't just use that difference to front end the contracts of Nas and Pou for a season rather than committing to giving someone who isn't a need the biggest contract in the history of the sport.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Will be a good year to trade in 3 and draft 3. Wouldn’t over commit to this draft.

 

[stavro#4]

To everyone going on about "we have to pay someone!" - the difference between the salary cap and the salary floor this season is 677k. I don't see why we couldn't just use that difference to front end the contracts of Nas and Pou for a season rather than committing to giving someone who isn't a need the biggest contract in the history of the sport.

Because we are likely in this position:

“taken advantage of the rule that allows clubs to spend over the salary cap by up to five per cent, if they have underspent on players in the two previous seasons and have room to trade in more players this October.”

Because it’s been next to impossible for us to land an A grade free agent and now we are in the race & in first place, we have posters in true stkilda fashion dropping their bundles when it looks like we are about to win.

The hardest part of getting one. Get TDK on board and it shows others that they won’t be the scapegoat that we have the talent that players want to come and aren’t afraid of our history of being irrelevant.

 

[PJays]

To everyone going on about "we have to pay someone!" - the difference between the salary cap and the salary floor this season is 677k. I don't see why we couldn't just use that difference to front end the contracts of Nas and Pou for a season rather than committing to giving someone who isn't a need the biggest contract in the history of the sport.

Difference is $790k by my calcs.

If cap is $15.8mil Saints must be paying $15,010,000 (95%).

Next year the cap is $17.7 mil.

This gives the Saints $2.69 mil extra. ( and its possible to go over if under by same amount following year).

If TDK gets $2mil and NWM gets a $690,000 pay rise, there's your cap gone, before factoring in other pay rises (keeping in mind St Kilda's best 23 is 3rd or 4th youngest every week, and many will expect pay rises in coming years).

This means the stuff about "we must pay someone" must be nonsense. As is the idea that signing TDK won't reduce flexibility for the next few years.

You know what they say. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[L_W_P]

I can see the vision now:

Out -
NWM
Stk 2026 3rd
Stk 2027 3rd
Marshall
Stk 1st
Stk 2026 2nd

In -
PA 1st
PA 2026 1st
PA 2027 2nd
SDK
Geel 2026 3rd
TDK

Webster - Caminiti - Wilkie
Sinclair - SDK - Tauru
Wilson - Steele - Boxshall
Owens - King - Phillipou
Higgins - Sharman - Collard
TDK - Macrae - Garcia
Windhager - Travaglia - Shoenmaker - Stocker - Henry

 

[PJays]

Because we are likely in this position:

“taken advantage of the rule that allows clubs to spend over the salary cap by up to five per cent, if they have underspent on players in the two previous seasons and have room to trade in more players this October.”

Are you seriously arguing....

A. Saints should go OVER the cap

While simultaneously suggesting

B. We'll still have plenty of room for other Trades/FAs in future years even if we massively overpay TDK

Can you get your story straight please

 

[BrutThough]

Are you seriously arguing....

A. Saints should go OVER the cap

While simultaneously suggesting

B. We'll still have plenty of room for other Trades/FAs in future years even if we massively overpay TDK

Can you get your story straight please

It's not "over" the cap. It would mean our cap is 5% larger for two years due to saving that money in previous years. And if we dont use it, we lose that money

 

[PJays]

It's not "over" the cap. It would mean our cap is 5% larger for two years due to saving that money in previous years. And if we dont use it, we lose that money

So what if we lose it?

Is losing 5% in 2026 (well under a mil) a reason to overspend and throw $12.5 mil at a guy for 7 years? What kind of logic is that?

Edit: And 2ndly, going to 105% in 2026 still means you're going back to 100% in 2027, with a whole bunch of young players coming off contract (and TDK probably still being front loaded).

Which proves the point I've made all along- overpaying TDK creates a huge reduction in flexibility in 2026, 2027, 2028.

 

[PJays]

Difference is $790k by my calcs.

If cap is $15.8mil Saints must be paying $15,010,000 (95%).

Next year the cap is $17.7 mil.

This gives the Saints $2.69 mil extra. ( and its possible to go over if under by same amount following year).

If TDK gets $2mil and NWM gets a $690,000 pay rise, there's your cap gone, before factoring in other pay rises (keeping in mind St Kilda's best 23 is 3rd or 4th youngest every week, and many will expect pay rises in coming years).

This means the stuff about "we must pay someone" must be nonsense. As is the idea that signing TDK won't reduce flexibility for the next few years.

You know what they say. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Just realised these figures were a year behind- it's $17.7 mil in 2025.

Not sure what 2026 will be, but assuming a similar increase the logic holds exactly the same.

 

[stavro#4]

So what if we lose it?

Is losing 5% in 2026 (well under a mil) a reason to overspend and throw $12.5 mil at a guy for 7 years? What kind of logic is that?

Because it’s a tactical advantage that you can’t just develop from year to year. It’s something that you need to create over time.

So it’s of significant benefit to any club that should be used.

 

[BrutThough]

So what if we lose it?

Is losing 5% in 2026 (well under a mil) a reason to overspend and throw $12.5 mil at a guy for 7 years? What kind of logic is that?

Obviously it doesnt matter if we lose it but it's also a waste. So if we have the room, why not spend it? If we hold cap space and throw away what we've saved just waiting for the perfect person to spend it on, we will be waiting forever.

And let's not get too caught up in the 12.5 million, which would be the exaggerated absolute ceiling TDK could earn if he hit hundreds of unlikely bonuses in the deal.