Training 2025 Pre-Season Thread

[Grasshopper17]

Lovin the pressure for a pre season game from the forward line. Gee whiz but if we have to see much of Joyce this season it’ll be tough viewing

Yes we missed Harris considerably I thought. Still our most important player going on Thursday night's performance.

13 tackles to 7 inside 50 a very promising sign. In fact some of our pressure and tackling all over the ground, particularly the number of run-down tackles by blokes back-tracking from forward of the ball, was a feature of our game I thought.

 

[Grasshopper17]

One thing I do love about Zac, and I'm not his biggest fans, is that he always works his arse off when he screws up, never drops his head.

I think he's had to learn this. It's taken some time but he's getting there. His defensive efforts have improved considerably. Tackled pretty well on Thursday night.

 

[Grasshopper17]

losing a lot of 1v1 in the air forward line

8 contested marks to 15 by the end of the game. Their big men out-pointed ours both ahead of and behind the ball. Payne in particular was given a bath by Thilthorpe unfortunately.

Still got a fair bit of work to do on our ball movement; we got slowed down often at half back and were forced to go long down the line too often. Whereas even when Adelaide were slowed down in similar situations, more often than not they were still about to find a short target and keep the play going.

It could be something as simple as holding our forwards a bit deeper to open up the mid-zone and corridor for our midfielders and half forwards.

Another strategy to combat teams who look to man us up one-on-one all over the ground (as Adelaide generally do and did on Thursday) is to set up screens, where players lead on 45⁰ angles but pass at right angles to each other. Yes, shepherding is illegal more than 5m off the ball, but if you just happen to be running in a direction and just so happen to collide with an opponent (who's chasing your team mate), the umpire can hardly do much about that. Suddenly, your team mate is loose and that's how you open up space even when you're being tightly marked.

We used this tactic quite regularly with great effect in Gaelic footy, a sport where there is neither the "mark" nor is "shepherding" allowed at all. So it would be even more effective here.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Really liking Answerth.

Famous last words I know, but on his preseason form I think he's ready to step up and take Stengle on Thursday night.

And potentially Papley in Round 1 should Starce still be recovering from his concussion.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Jeez, that was an absolute replay of Bez’s mark and goal in the granny.

I have to admit, when he kicked that goal I went full nuffy in the grandstand with the "he's waited 12 months for that moment, and it was not to pass him by".

Thankyou Gerard Whateley.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Wilmot hasn't had his best game, can't let guys dance around you like that in the real thing.

Agreed. Thilthorpe sidestepping around Lohmann in the last quarter just behind the wing also not Kai's best moment.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Henry Smith says hi

Liked Smith's game. Only got 10 minutes but showed a bit. We've probably backed ourselves into a corner with his limited game time, but would like to see him given more of a go this season. From the little I've seen from him, it seems as tho he would really benefit from a sense of belonging, feeling like he knows he is good enough to cut it at the level and has the trust of his team mates and the coaches.

 

[Grasshopper17]

75 metre penalty to Neal-Bullen there.

Balancing up the 25 metre penalty we got in the first quarter

 

[Grasshopper17]

This is like every game we’ve played against the crows the last few years. We dominate and get a lead and then the crows kick some bullshit easy ones and pull it back.

They scored incredibly easily and quickly from centre bounces. Often immediately after we had kicked one. Have a look at the score worm from Thursday night:

Goal for goal pretty much all the way from early in the 2nd to early in the last quarter, and several of them clumped very close together, indicating they came from centre bounces.

Adelaide in the end won centre clearances 17 to 12 and looked far more dangerous (coming out the front on the run) than we did (often lateral or hack kicks forward). We were more competitive around the ground (28-24), where it was often a bit less organised and our quick hands came into play.

 

[Nathan Barley]

They scored incredibly easily and quickly from centre bounces. Often immediately after we had kicked one. Have a look at the score worm from Thursday night:
View attachment 2238592
Goal for goal pretty much all the way from early in the 2nd to early in the last quarter, and several of them clumped very close together, indicating they came from centre bounces.

Adelaide in the end won centre clearances 17 to 12 and looked far more dangerous (coming out the front on the run) than we did (often lateral or hack kicks forward). We were more competitive around the ground (28-24), where it was often a bit less organised and our quick hands came into play.

Could be as simple as the extra rotations. I don't think Levi will see many centre clearances once the real games start

Plus we kept handballing to Oscar which was frustrating

 

[Grasshopper17]

Given we have so many arvo games, is having Derm tonight psychologically preparing us for season 2025.

Funnily enough I thought we struggled with the slippery ball at times on the night. I've mentioned it before but I still reckon there is merit to having at least some training sessions at night close to the start of the season.

Certainly this week at training we should be coating the balls with water and soap and whatever else it takes to replicate Thursday night's likely conditions.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Could be as simple as the extra rotations. I don't think Levi will see many centre clearances once the real games start

Plus we kept handballing to Oscar which was frustrating

"Never handball to a ruckman"!

A cliche, sure, but cliches are often cliches for a reason!

 

[Grasshopper17]

Wasn’t ready to see Murray Davis in the Crows coaches box.

Great preseason hit out to have against a team who basically knew exactly what we were gonna do for pretty much the whole game.

 

[Sproj]

Liked Smith's game. Only got 10 minutes but showed a bit. We've probably backed ourselves into a corner with his limited game time, but would like to see him given more of a go this season. From the little I've seen from him, it seems as tho he would really benefit from a sense of belonging, feeling like he knows he is good enough to cut it at the level and has the trust of his team mates and the coaches.

He did look good but would he have looked as good if it was 10 minutes against a fresh side and not one stuffed in the first hit out of the season?

 

[Dalions]

They scored incredibly easily and quickly from centre bounces. Often immediately after we had kicked one. Have a look at the score worm from Thursday night:
View attachment 2238592
Goal for goal pretty much all the way from early in the 2nd to early in the last quarter, and several of them clumped very close together, indicating they came from centre bounces.

Adelaide in the end won centre clearances 17 to 12 and looked far more dangerous (coming out the front on the run) than we did (often lateral or hack kicks forward). We were more competitive around the ground (28-24), where it was often a bit less organised and our quick hands came into play.

This is why on the night I could tell that our boys weren’t really playing for keeps.
As I mentioned to you on the night.
As soon as we kicked a goal there was an immediate drop off in intensity from our boys, we then wrestled the momentum back all night bar the last 10 mins or so.
We were only half there imo.

 

[Perrip]

'Pound The Rock' preview: How Lions went from chaos to champions

Watch the trailer for 'Pound The Rock', the 2025 AFL season launch film that goes inside the Brisbane Lions' stunning 2024 premiership victory

 

[Grasshopper17]

lol nice 2 minute drill there crows. Only gave us like 4 looks at it.

Alright THIS is what I've been gearing up to talk about. There's a fair chance this post is going to be massively taken out of context by at least someone, so I'll do my best to scope it out properly.

I actually thought overall it was a good-to-solid performance overall on Thursday night against a well organised opponent who came with basically a complete copy of our game plan (courtesy of Murray Davis). And midway through the last quarter we had still essentially broken them.

And this is the discussion I think is worth having.

I have no concerns with our "win-the-game" method. A semi final win over GWS, two goals in the final 2 minutes in the prelim, and getting two set shots (and nearly a third if Charlie had held on to that difficult mark in the dying seconds) in the final 2 minutes against Adelaide. All this points to this set of tactics being in good working order. Look at how well we moved the ball beyond half way, and THEN shifted the ball crossfield to our wingers who were unmarked both times. 90% of the time in those situations, teams (including us in the past) would panic, and just bomb it long as far as they can, right to where the opposition have (or should have) all their numbers set up.

So even tho we didn't get the W, a big tick on that front. Expected score would suggest both Rayner's and Fletcher's shot would be about 50/50, so it would be reasonable to expect one of those to go through normally.

But our kicking for goal was, of course, terrible for most of the night. This is a separate discussion. I'd be interested in learning from martinson, 3KZ is Football and our other Bigfooty "veterans" about the merits of the flat punt, which hasn't been seen in footy for at least 30 years, probably longer.

But I digress.

I'm reasonably comfortable with our "save the game" method. Wins against Melbourne, Sydney and the Giants last year are evidence of this. We tend to allow oppositions to play this stage of the game in their front half, so we run the risk that any free kick we concede is a likely shot at goal. It would be good if we could somehow play this phase in our front half instead, as Collingwood are often able to. But apart from that we've handled recent matches much better than we have in the past.

Bottle the ball up, keep your tackles low, get everyone around or behind the ball, HANDBALL rather than kick out of trouble (note Charlie vs Melbourne and Berry against the Giants), so that you don't concede a mark or an out on the full free kick.

But both of these methods are, by their very nature, a lottery. They are only used for short periods of play, so over the longer term they are just as likely to blow up in your face as they are to work. Even Collingwood, probably the greatest "close game" team we've ever seen, started losing close games in 2024, as teams started adapting to AND adopting their own tactics to use against them.

But there's another facet of the game I want to discuss, which has never really been touched on but the more I watch footy the more I'm beginning to realise it's a thing. I preface all this by saying that yes, Thursday night was a PRACTICE match. In isolation it DOESN'T MATTER.

BUT, we lost matches last year to Collingwood, GWS, Carlton and drew with Adelaide in very similar circumstances. So to me there's a pattern to the way we've treated all these matches.

It's our "ice the game" or "seal the game" method I want to discuss. I've come to realise this is the period of the game from 10-15 minutes to go, down to 2 minutes to go (when we go into our "save the game" mode as Fages has touched on before), where you have a lead of more than a goal, but less than, say, 6 goals, or the Leigh Matthews rule etc.

It needs a bit of work I think. I'm still fleshing out in my mind how I think this ought to look, but it's different to how you play 80% of the time, and it's also different to how you play when you're saving the game at the death.

But it's taking elements of both. So we might borrow some things from "save the game". For example, for 3.5 quarters, you might get tackled immediately but see a team mate, get the hands free and handball out. In this period, you just take the tackle, go to ground if you like, hold the ball in, get a ball up. Maybe you get tackled near the boundary line. Just let yourself be taken out of bounds. Get the stoppage, reset, go again.

But when you DO get the stoppage, no point sagging back as soon as you lose the contest, like we did on Thursday night. We went full on "prevent defence", which has limited use in NFL but is virtually useless in the AFL level. By allowing an opposition's ball players time and space to use their skills, you invite them to hit targets however they like, and that's exactly what Adelaide did in the final 10 minutes on Thursday night.

So you still have to apply pressure around the ball, the same as you would 80% of the game.

MAYBE you play a spare man. This would be my default "go to", altho we haven't always played this scenario well. Admittedly we did look better with Ah Chee doing the job late in quarters last year, so depending on our available personnel, this is a tactic I would use in this situation.

This dovetails in nicely with exerting pressure on the ball carrier. Force them to kick under pressure, to hopefully our spare.

Then, if we DO get the ball, we don't have to go hell for leather. We can play patiently, perhaps shelve a bit of the overlap handball stuff in lieu of a bit more kick-mark.

But this is the crucial part, and this is where teams fall down. It's where we fell down against Melbourne in 2023, and it's there the Giants fell down against us in the semi last year.

You still have to be THREATENING. Remember, at this stage of the game, one more goal to us and it's curtains for the opposition. We still have to maintain that potency, that threat. No use going laterally or backwards for 5 kicks and then going long down the line to where they have their ruckman and best intercept defender lurking. You still have to be prepared to use the full width of the ground, and take the ball FORWARD.

Remember at this stage of the game, the team who's losing is going to be hard one on one all over the ground. They can't afford to let you kick-mark all day long. They are trying to funnel you into kicking long down the line to their best marks. So, constant movement, laterally and on diagonals is absolutely key, creating space for one another in a manner similar to what I discussed a couple of posts ago (above).

And then even if you do turn the ball over, you've just spent a minute or so forcing the opposition to DEFEND, and defend the FULL WIDTH of the ground. (A) They'll be out of position to launch a quick rebound attack and (B) they'll probably be a bit gassed too from chasing us around. You've also been able to spend that minute getting your shape in order behind the ball, particularly if you haven't had to go backwards during that time.

But assume you're able to maintain possession. You've been able to move in a controlled yet purposeful manner down the field. Then you get to 70-75 metres from goal, and it's likely difficult at that stage to get any closer to goal without kicking to a contest, particularly if you haven't got to that point with any great speed.

Then it's a long kick inside 50, favouring the skinny side boundary. If you take a contested mark, fantastic, if not, hold it in, knock it out of bounds, get a stoppage. 25m from goal or closer. It's much easier to defend the ground when it's deep in your forward line.

If you DO get a mark 50-55 from goal, the tactic here is different to the other 80% of the game as well. Normally here you are sitting it up to the top of the square, hoping for a pack mark, or a crumbing goal. Not here. Here, you take any point on offer. This goes double if you lead by 11, 12, 17, 18, 23, 24, 29, 30 or 35 points.

Take your full 30 seconds, everyone else get set up for a behind. Bang it long and high, as far as you can, if you get a mark on the goal line, wonderful. But at least get a score, off hands, whatever. Take the "handy point". Even with the changes to the kick-in rules these days, teams rarely transition the ball full length of the field for a score. A turnover score the other way is still far more likely.

That's all I've got for now I think. As I said this is the first go I've had at fleshing out how this looks, so it's probably a bit rough and there are some holes in it. But a bit like the 30-40 over period in a one day cricket game, I think we need to play this stage of the game differently to the very end, but also differently to the rest of the game. It's quite nuanced, but the more I watch the more I'm convinced it's a thing, and something we need to improve at.

Looking forward to seeing how/if we address this going forward.

 

[Grasshopper17]

And a cyclist. Nothing worse than turning around at the half way point & finding out the trip home is into a headwind. Fatties like me need a tailwind for the home leg.

Makes two of us

 

[Grasshopper17]

Would be 100s of frees a game if they paid that one

For a few games. Then the players would learn and stop doing it.

 

[Grasshopper17]

He did look good but would he have looked as good if it was 10 minutes against a fresh side and not one stuffed in the first hit out of the season?

Yeah fair question. I still think we're going to give Day first crack on Thursday.

 

[Grasshopper17]

'Pound The Rock' preview: How Lions went from chaos to champions

Goodness. I might have to take Wednesday off.

 

[Whatamark]

'Pound The Rock' preview: How Lions went from chaos to champions

Blimey that and "Dancing on Ice" on Fox/Kayo. Seems the Lions journey hit a chord ! Not sure if other premiers have got that kind of treatment.

 

[Nunez]

Alright THIS is what I've been gearing up to talk about. There's a fair chance this post is going to be massively taken out of context by at least someone, so I'll do my best to scope it out properly.

I actually thought overall it was a good-to-solid performance overall on Thursday night against a well organised opponent who came with basically a complete copy of our game plan (courtesy of Murray Davis). And midway through the last quarter we had still essentially broken them.

And this is the discussion I think is worth having.

I have no concerns with our "win-the-game" method. A semi final win over GWS, two goals in the final 2 minutes in the prelim, and getting two set shots (and nearly a third if Charlie had held on to that difficult mark in the dying seconds) in the final 2 minutes against Adelaide. All this points to this set of tactics being in good working order. Look at how well we moved the ball beyond half way, and THEN shifted the ball crossfield to our wingers who were unmarked both times. 90% of the time in those situations, teams (including us in the past) would panic, and just bomb it long as far as they can, right to where the opposition have (or should have) all their numbers set up.

So even tho we didn't get the W, a big tick on that front. Expected score would suggest both Rayner's and Fletcher's shot would be about 50/50, so it would be reasonable to expect one of those to go through normally.

But our kicking for goal was, of course, terrible for most of the night. This is a separate discussion. I'd be interested in learning from martinson, 3KZ is Football and our other Bigfooty "veterans" about the merits of the flat punt, which hasn't been seen in footy for at least 30 years, probably longer.

But I digress.

I'm reasonably comfortable with our "save the game" method. Wins against Melbourne, Sydney and the Giants last year are evidence of this. We tend to allow oppositions to play this stage of the game in their front half, so we run the risk that any free kick we concede is a likely shot at goal. It would be good if we could somehow play this phase in our front half instead, as Collingwood are often able to. But apart from that we've handled recent matches much better than we have in the past.

Bottle the ball up, keep your tackles low, get everyone around or behind the ball, HANDBALL rather than kick out of trouble (note Charlie vs Melbourne and Berry against the Giants), so that you don't concede a mark or an out on the full free kick.

But both of these methods are, by their very nature, a lottery. They are only used for short periods of play, so over the longer term they are just as likely to blow up in your face as they are to work. Even Collingwood, probably the greatest "close game" team we've ever seen, started losing close games in 2024, as teams started adapting to AND adopting their own tactics to use against them.

But there's another facet of the game I want to discuss, which has never really been touched on but the more I watch footy the more I'm beginning to realise it's a thing. I preface all this by saying that yes, Thursday night was a PRACTICE match. In isolation it DOESN'T MATTER.

BUT, we lost matches last year to Collingwood, GWS, Carlton and drew with Adelaide in very similar circumstances. So to me there's a pattern to the way we've treated all these matches.

It's our "ice the game" or "seal the game" method I want to discuss. I've come to realise this is the period of the game from 10-15 minutes to go, down to 2 minutes to go (when we go into our "save the game" mode as Fages has touched on before), where you have a lead of more than a goal, but less than, say, 6 goals, or the Leigh Matthews rule etc.

It needs a bit of work I think. I'm still fleshing out in my mind how I think this ought to look, but it's different to how you play 80% of the time, and it's also different to how you play when you're saving the game at the death.

But it's taking elements of both. So we might borrow some things from "save the game". For example, for 3.5 quarters, you might get tackled immediately but see a team mate, get the hands free and handball out. In this period, you just take the tackle, go to ground if you like, hold the ball in, get a ball up. Maybe you get tackled near the boundary line. Just let yourself be taken out of bounds. Get the stoppage, reset, go again.

But when you DO get the stoppage, no point sagging back as soon as you lose the contest, like we did on Thursday night. We went full on "prevent defence", which has limited use in NFL but is virtually useless in the AFL level. By allowing an opposition's ball players time and space to use their skills, you invite them to hit targets however they like, and that's exactly what Adelaide did in the final 10 minutes on Thursday night.

So you still have to apply pressure around the ball, the same as you would 80% of the game.

MAYBE you play a spare man. This would be my default "go to", altho we haven't always played this scenario well. Admittedly we did look better with Ah Chee doing the job late in quarters last year, so depending on our available personnel, this is a tactic I would use in this situation.

This dovetails in nicely with exerting pressure on the ball carrier. Force them to kick under pressure, to hopefully our spare.

Then, if we DO get the ball, we don't have to go hell for leather. We can play patiently, perhaps shelve a bit of the overlap handball stuff in lieu of a bit more kick-mark.

But this is the crucial part, and this is where teams fall down. It's where we fell down against Melbourne in 2023, and it's there the Giants fell down against us in the semi last year.

You still have to be THREATENING. Remember, at this stage of the game, one more goal to us and it's curtains for the opposition. We still have to maintain that potency, that threat. No use going laterally or backwards for 5 kicks and then going long down the line to where they have their ruckman and best intercept defender lurking. You still have to be prepared to use the full width of the ground, and take the ball FORWARD.

Remember at this stage of the game, the team who's losing is going to be hard one on one all over the ground. They can't afford to let you kick-mark all day long. They are trying to funnel you into kicking long down the line to their best marks. So, constant movement, laterally and on diagonals is absolutely key, creating space for one another in a manner similar to what I discussed a couple of posts ago (above).

And then even if you do turn the ball over, you've just spent a minute or so forcing the opposition to DEFEND, and defend the FULL WIDTH of the ground. (A) They'll be out of position to launch a quick rebound attack and (B) they'll probably be a bit gassed too from chasing us around. You've also been able to spend that minute getting your shape in order behind the ball, particularly if you haven't had to go backwards during that time.

But assume you're able to maintain possession. You've been able to move in a controlled yet purposeful manner down the field. Then you get to 70-75 metres from goal, and it's likely difficult at that stage to get any closer to goal without kicking to a contest, particularly if you haven't got to that point with any great speed.

Then it's a long kick inside 50, favouring the skinny side boundary. If you take a contested mark, fantastic, if not, hold it in, knock it out of bounds, get a stoppage. 25m from goal or closer. It's much easier to defend the ground when it's deep in your forward line.

If you DO get a mark 50-55 from goal, the tactic here is different to the other 80% of the game as well. Normally here you are sitting it up to the top of the square, hoping for a pack mark, or a crumbing goal. Not here. Here, you take any point on offer. This goes double if you lead by 11, 12, 17, 18, 23, 24, 29, 30 or 35 points.

Take your full 30 seconds, everyone else get set up for a behind. Bang it long and high, as far as you can, if you get a mark on the goal line, wonderful. But at least get a score, off hands, whatever. Take the "handy point". Even with the changes to the kick-in rules these days, teams rarely transition the ball full length of the field for a score. A turnover score the other way is still far more likely.

That's all I've got for now I think. As I said this is the first go I've had at fleshing out how this looks, so it's probably a bit rough and there are some holes in it. But a bit like the 30-40 over period in a one day cricket game, I think we need to play this stage of the game differently to the very end, but also differently to the rest of the game. It's quite nuanced, but the more I watch the more I'm convinced it's a thing, and something we need to improve at.

Looking forward to seeing how/if we address this going forward.

I personally think we need to focus on winning games by 60+ points so we don't need to worry about icing games. Get it done Fages.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Blimey that and "Dancing on Ice" on Fox/Kayo. Seems the Lions journey hit a chord ! Not sure if other premiers have got that kind of treatment.

You'd imagine the club would put something together also. It would be strange (and a bit off) if they did something for the women's flag in 2023 but not for our men's team.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I personally think we need to focus on winning games by 60+ points so we don't need to worry about icing games. Get it done Fages.

Bit like this perhaps

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