20th AFL Team

[Coolangatta]

I've seen it suggested on these forums that Henson Park and/or Blacktown could be used as an upgrade so the Giants could play all their games in Western Sydney.

Either that or upgrade the Newcastle showgrounds and have them play a couple of games there while playing Sydney at Accor early in the season, so at least they get 9 rather than 8 games in Sydney and Newcastle can actually be tested as a future expansion option.

 

[Canberra Pear]

By 2033, I hope the Giants have built enough of a local fanbase that they could host a decent crowd for a marquee at Accor. It's in the same precinct, so not disruptive to their fans.

Only need one game in that Easter stretch to break up the long stretch without games.

It has to be a high-drawing game, otherwise it's just soulless.

The obvious solution is the derby. Could probably already pull 30-40k if it were held at Accor. Could have pulling power of 50k by 2033. But the downside is that they would lose their home ground advantage.

The Collingwood game got 21k. I reckon 30-40k could be doable for a non-derby marquee match by 2033. Build it up like Brisbane have with Easter Thursday, play it against a Victorian big four team, couple it with the Easter Show for promotion.

And the bonus of playing games at Accor means there's reason to keep it an oval. There remains an 80k oval option in NSW if there's ever the need.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

I've seen it suggested on these forums that Henson Park and/or Blacktown could be used as an upgrade so the Giants could play all their games in Western Sydney.

Either that or upgrade the Newcastle showgrounds and have them play a couple of games there while playing Sydney at Accor early in the season, so at least they get 9 rather than 8 games in Sydney and Newcastle can actually be tested as a future expansion option.

It would be interesting to see if they could pull a crowd at the SCG. I was reflecting on your suggestions too. The main questions would be how much funding is required to bring Blacktown or Henson Park up to standard? And would it be possible to attract the government support needed for the redevelopment?

By 2033, I hope the Giants have built enough of a local fanbase that they could host a decent crowd for a marquee at Accor. It's in the same precinct, so not disruptive to their fans.

Only need one game in that Easter stretch to break up the long stretch without games.

It has to be a high-drawing game, otherwise it's just soulless.

The obvious solution is the derby. Could probably already pull 30-40k if it were held at Accor. Could have pulling power of 50k by 2033. But the downside is that they would lose their home ground advantage.

The Collingwood game got 21k. I reckon 30-40k could be doable for a non-derby marquee match by 2033. Build it up like Brisbane have with Easter Thursday, play it against a Victorian big four team, couple it with the Easter Show for promotion.

And the bonus of playing games at Accor means there's reason to keep it an oval. There remains an 80k oval option in NSW if there's ever the need.

This is a fantastic idea, they should definitely do something like this post-Canberra. I still think they’ll need more than one home game in Sydney throughout that period though. I just checked the fixture and it’s two months - that’s a bloody long time!

 

[Canberra Pear]

It would be interesting to see if they could pull a crowd at the SCG. I was reflecting on your suggestions too. The main questions would be how much funding is required to bring Blacktown or Henson Park up to standard? And would it be possible to attract the government support needed for the redevelopment?


This is a fantastic idea, they should definitely do something like this post-Canberra. I still think they’ll need more than one home game in Sydney throughout that period though. I just checked the fixture and it’s two months - that’s a bloody long time!

This year's gap seems weirdly long for some reason, it's eight rounds without a Sydney home game.

Previous years have only been five or six games.

A match in the middle of a five-game stretch would mean they'd only have to go two games without a home crowd.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

This year's gap seems weirdly long for some reason, it's eight rounds without a Sydney home game.

Previous years have only been five or six games.

A match in the middle of a five-game stretch would mean they'd only have to go two games without a home crowd.

I agree that would be perfect.

 

[Coolangatta]

It would be interesting to see if they could pull a crowd at the SCG. I was reflecting on your suggestions too. The main questions would be how much funding is required to bring Blacktown or Henson Park up to standard? And would it be possible to attract the government support needed for the redevelopment?

I'm not sure. If we're talking long-term and Canberra has their own team, the Giants could just play the games they'd normally play at Manuka at Accor instead. The way they're tracking they aren't going to be anywhere near big enough to reach max capacity, but if they do grow and get some big drawing clubs, then Accor would be perfect for some early season games against the likes of Collingwood, Carlton, and Sydney, and by that stage they might crack some 60k+ crowds.

 

[BigChippa52]

By 2033, I hope the Giants have built enough of a local fanbase that they could host a decent crowd for a marquee at Accor. It's in the same precinct, so not disruptive to their fans.

Only need one game in that Easter stretch to break up the long stretch without games.

It has to be a high-drawing game, otherwise it's just soulless.

The obvious solution is the derby. Could probably already pull 30-40k if it were held at Accor. Could have pulling power of 50k by 2033. But the downside is that they would lose their home ground advantage.

The Collingwood game got 21k. I reckon 30-40k could be doable for a non-derby marquee match by 2033. Build it up like Brisbane have with Easter Thursday, play it against a Victorian big four team, couple it with the Easter Show for promotion.

And the bonus of playing games at Accor means there's reason to keep it an oval. There remains an 80k oval option in NSW if there's ever the need.

dogs that a big rivally, or us i think were a close enough to be a vic big 4 atm and have been with history

 

[Coolangatta]

It's a bit messy but Gemini generated this Canberra Owls design:

 

[Bjo187]

It's a bit messy but Gemini generated this Canberra Owls design:

View attachment 1938697

It's a great colour pallet, really distinct in the competition it would be.

 

[Thailander]

Unfortunately for the 20th team, it will never have the same level of popularity or love that the Tassie Devils have acquired in such a short time.

I think it's time to cap it at 19 - we've reached peak AFL.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Unfortunately for the 20th team, it will never have the same level of popularity or love that the Tassie Devils have acquired in such a short time.

I think it's time to cap it at 19 - we've reached peak AFL.

It would depend on where the 20th team would be located.

If the club is based in Darwin/NT or Canberra, reckon there would be some level of popularity and love.

If the club is WA3 or located in North Queensland or Newcastle, there wouldn’t be a lot of love and support at first glance.

Ideally sake for growing the code, Canberra should be high on the AFL priority of becoming the 20th team, as Darwin/NT is too expensive to host a club right now (relocation with North Melbourne) before WA3 becomes the 21st team and then SA, NSW and QLD can bid for a 3rd team in their states as part of the 22nd team by 2050.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Unfortunately for the 20th team, it will never have the same level of popularity or love that the Tassie Devils have acquired in such a short time.

I think it's time to cap it at 19 - we've reached peak AFL.

A Canberra team won't have the initial wave of popularity as Tasmania (especially outside of the state), but give it 10 years after entry, and I reckon Canberra and Tasmania will have pretty similar off-field numbers.

We don't have as higher footy fanaticism, but we still have as many AFL fans within driving distance of the stadium. And none of them currently have a full-time team to direct their passion towards.

 

[Coolangatta]

It would depend on where the 20th team would be located.

If the club is based in Darwin/NT or Canberra, reckon there would be some level of popularity and love.

If the club is WA3 or located in North Queensland or Newcastle, there wouldn’t be a lot of love and support at first glance.

Ideally sake for growing the code, Canberra should be high on the AFL priority of becoming the 20th team, as Darwin/NT is too expensive to host a club right now (relocation with North Melbourne) before WA3 becomes the 21st team and then SA, NSW and QLD can bid for a 3rd team in their states as part of the 22nd team by 2050.

Yep, you’ve nailed it. 22 teams by 2050.

Canberra 20, Perth or South West WA 21. If they get the secondary markets right, there’ll be games played in Newcastle, Auckland, and Cairns.

Team 22 as you say could be a competition between SA, NSW, QLD and NZ.

If it’s a healthy competition and the 22nd team is a difficult decision for the AFL then they can expand again in the 2070s and maybe NT becomes viable by then.

And it could keep going for as long as there are viable options but viability is key and shutting the door for the sake of shutting it makes zero financial sense.

 

[Coolangatta]

And boohoo that more teams makes it harder for clubs to win a premiership. St Kilda and other ancient clubs had 100 ****in years to win one when it was just 12 teams and they didn’t so **** em. It’s not the fault of new expansion clubs that they didn’t take their chances when they had them in their precious VFL days.

 

[GC2015]

North Australia Crocodiles, based in Darwin.

6 home games in Darwin, 3 in Cairns and 2 in Alice Springs.

Looks like this could actually be on the cards. AFL NT and AFL Cairns have just entered a partnership and both are apparently keen to bid for the 20th licence.

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

www.cairnspost.com.au

 

[Spirit Level]

I agree. Where do you think GWS should play their home games during the Easter Show period when the Showgrounds is unavailable? This should be an important consideration, because their choice of venue would be key ensuring they can maintain their presence and momentum with fans in Western Sydney throughout the entire season.

Surely a Derby at Accor and maybe a game at Blacktown (although I'm sure we'd always be picked for that).

Sydney haven't played consistently at Accor in around a decade so there wouldn't be such a home ground disadvantage

 

[Coolangatta]

Looks like this could actually be on the cards. AFL NT and AFL Cairns have just entered a partnership and both are apparently keen to bid for the 20th licence.

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

www.cairnspost.com.au

6 games in Darwin plus 3 in Cairns and 2 in Alice Springs would be shit, though.

You don't build a billon dollar stadium in Darwin just for 6 games, you need 7 minimum like Hobart is getting. Darwin is tiny, Alice Springs is microscopic. 1 game in Alice Springs is more than enough, I don't know why people suggesting a NT/NA side always seem to have a hard on for multiple Alice Springs games.

I'd go 7-3-1 if Alice Springs had to be included, otherwise just 7-4 split between Darwin and Cairns.

I still think it's a much weaker bid than Canberra, but sadly I can see them going the "No! GWS needs them!" bullshit.

But the irony is, Darwin, Cairns and Alice populations combined are still less than Canberra's.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Looks like this could actually be on the cards. AFL NT and AFL Cairns have just entered a partnership and both are apparently keen to bid for the 20th licence.

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

No Cookies | The Cairns Post

www.cairnspost.com.au

Do you have access to the story? Does it have an actual breakdown of where the games would be played?

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Unfortunately for the 20th team, it will never have the same level of popularity or love that the Tassie Devils have acquired in such a short time.

I think it's time to cap it at 19 - we've reached peak AFL.

But 19 teams means a bye a week for one team. Get to 20 teams, and we have an additional game a week to offer for broadcasting $?

 

[Bjo187]

Do you have access to the story? Does it have an actual breakdown of where the games would be played?

 

[Canberra Pear]

View attachment 1940230
View attachment 1940231

Thanks for that. Feel like I need a subscription to every paper for the expansion stories these days.

There's potential in that story that they're alluding to a joint northern team, but I think the journo is putting a bit of mayo on it. All of the juiciest quotes are from last year when they were pushing for a Cairns specific-team.

Also interesting that they combine all of the NT and Cairns' populations and only get 420k. And that includes the 80k that don't live in either Darwin or Alice Springs. Shows how sparse the north really is.

 

[GC2015]

Also interesting that they combine all of the NT and Cairns' populations and only get 420k. And that includes the 80k that don't live in either Darwin or Alice Springs. Shows how sparse the north really is.

One would assume Townsville would also be added to the Northern Australia academy zone, which would add an extra 200k and take the total to well over 600k.

The North Queensland Cowboys have a similar model where they represent all the main cities of North QLD and even went on tour throughout Townsville, Cairns, Mackay and Mout Isa when they won their historic first premiership in 2015. Even the New England Patriots in the NFL theoretically represent six separate states (Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island & Vermont) and they've been pretty successful so it's a model that can work, even when it crosses state borders.

 

[Canberra Pear]

One would assume Townsville would also be added to the Northern Australia academy zone, which would add an extra 200k and take the total to well over 600k.

The North Queensland Cowboys have a similar model where they represent all the main cities of North QLD and even went on tour throughout Townsville, Cairns, Mackay and Mout Isa when they won their historic first premiership in 2015. Even the New England Patriots in the NFL theoretically represent six separate states (Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island & Vermont) and they've been pretty successful so it's a model that can work, even when it crosses state borders.

That's still 600k spread over a truly enormous area.

The Cowboys may represent that area, but they play most, and usually all, of their home games in Townsville.

Any northern AFL team is being touted as spreading games across multiple cities.

Just say they're based in Darwin. Alice is 1200km away, Cairns 1600km and Townsville 1800km. The latter two are further away than Brisbane to Melbourne.

If they're based in Darwin, the players and staff would have to do the equivalent of an interstate trip maybe 18 times a season. That's brutal. West Coast complains about travel and they only have to do it 11 times a year.

 

[Coolangatta]

That's still 600k spread over a truly enormous area.

The Cowboys may represent that area, but they play most, and usually all, of their home games in Townsville.

Any northern AFL team is being touted as spreading games across multiple cities.

Just say they're based in Darwin. Alice is 1200km away, Cairns 1600km and Townsville 1800km. The latter two are further away than Brisbane to Melbourne.

If they're based in Darwin, the players and staff would have to do the equivalent of an interstate trip maybe 18 times a season. That's brutal. West Coast complains about travel and they only have to do it 11 times a year.

Yeah, I think the Cowboys play exclusively in Townsville all season and only play pre-season matches in Mackay and Cairns. They're all further away from each other than Hobart and Launceston are.

Even what I've suggested before upon reflection is crazy: 7 games in Darwin, 4 in Cairns. That's still (assuming 23 games per year) 16 road trips. Ouch.

Even 9 games in Darwin and 2 in Alice Springs is 14 road trips and as you've pointed out, they're about 1200km apart!

Darwin just doesn't have the weather for 11 games per year, though. I was thinking maybe they could play their first 2 games of the year in Alice Springs, play a pre season game or two there and hub early in the year. Give them a bye and then send them on the road in the fourth week for their third round of the year (wherever is closest). Then round five onwards they'd only play in Darwin and go back and fourth. They'd still have a hectic travel schedule but it'd be better managed.

This is what they could do with a North Queensland side. A game in Townsville, a game in Mackay, give them a break, then send them on the road, then rest of the year play home games in Cairns.

Of course, if we're going to split NT and NQ, then they have to be off the table for at least 50 years unless mega $$$ comes along for the NT.

The only way any kind of northern side can work is if we have some major breakthroughs in public transport and have friggin super/hypersonic trains/planes linking up the top end, which is reallly unlikely. Even then, you'd still need a minimum 7 games in Darwin to have a home base for the players, then go one each Alice, Mackay, Cairns, Townsville.

But the lengths I've had to go to for the "rationalisation" of a NT/Northern side just make me feel like it's never gonna happen.

 

[Perry Pie]

Team 20 will be one of Canberra, WA3 or SA3.

SA3 is unlikely unless SANFL figure there is a posative case that others will no go for and then decide to go for it.

WA3 is up to WA authorities. To date they are unconvinced (but if SA3 starts growing legs they might reconsider).

That leaves what should be favourite, Canberra. With the GWS considerations & no one really to go for it, it might is unlkely to go anywhere for 10 years...

19 teams is a rubbish situation for the AFL. I think they will do nothing on T20 until Tassie is up for sure & stadium is under way. Only then will anything happen (late 2025 or 2026 for that to clear). Until then the only thing to do for those with an interest is to quietly plot & plan.