20th AFL Team

[The_Wookie]

I think if the bulldogs, souths, dragons, tigers, eels or even roosters win the nrl grand final, the attention and turnout by fans in Sydney vs the attention when the swans win would tell you if the swans were really the biggest club in the city.

We definitely saw categorically which is the bigger club in Brisbane following this years nrl and afl grand finals

No one. NO ONE. has said they were more dominant than NRL teams in their own towns. NRL arguments come down to the usual stat: tv ratings, and little else. It is NOT borne out by football revenue - particularly gate and sponsorships, it is NOT borne out by attendance or membership data.

The swans have a very active passionate core group of fans, including myself. As well as a good amount of very casual fans. They’re doing great. But let’s not try to kid ourselves and use the swans average crowd figures as a proxy for some mass level of afl popularity in this city.

Lets not kid ourselves that its meaningless. On every measure, other than tv ratings and gambling revenue, the Swans are the biggest professional team in Sydney.

tv crowd figures are a much better proxy for this,

tv ratings are a survey of 12,000 homes nationally. They are NOT much better.

of which the swans average way way down in comparison to other league clubs based in Sydney. Obviously you know this. If you’re going to use average crowds as a measure of popularity you would be doing a disservice to ignore tv figures in this assessment.

No I really wouldnt.

In comparison the warriors in nz, both their crowd and tv averages are well higher than their union competition, as well as large turnouts to away games and a major cultural impact made.

I couldnt give a damn about nz and its not relevant to this thread.

 

[The_Wookie]

also knock of the personal insults lads

 

[speedpeck23]

What on earth is "Victoria Stadium"? And no, there isn't a direct train line between Southport and Brisbane. You have to change at Helensvale.

Ok Victoria Park and indirect train line.

 

[hampton]

If you mean swans are the biggest football club in terms of paid memberships and average crowds yes they are. Partly because they have to be, like you say all the time Wookie afl and league have a different economics model.

If Swans are the biggest in terms of general support, very unlikely, because if they were their tv viewership wouldn’t be a fraction of what the nrl clubs are in Sydney.

 

[hampton]

One minute, deluded dumb dumb league fan shows he is barely literate and makes a nonsensical verballing.....

When it is as dumbed down as possible that:

popularity of RL in Christchurch <<<<<<<<< popularity of AF in Canberra

he refuses to engage......despite his entire cringeworthy claim that NRL in christchurch is "low hangin fruit" rests on this delusion




The Swans are far bigger than any NRL clubs in Sydney - this is attested by attendance, membership, and surveys dating back decades. You are twisting yourself in knots to try and deny that straight after making the far more spurious claim about the popularity of the New Zealand Warriors

You are sooooo delusional!

Tell me again that afl is just as popular as rugby codes in NZ I need a laugh.

Also it’s a moot point whether afl is more popular in Canberra than nrl is in Christchurch. Let’s say it is. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bigger opportunity for the nrl to open a club in Christchurch whereas Canberra presents a smaller opportunity and questionable impacts to GWS for AFL. It’s more clear that an nrl team in Christchurch is a bigger opportunity. There is a stadium (something missing from Canberra), there is momentum, there is a legitimate new market to tap into (people here tell me that Canberra is already an afl city, so less net new supporters).

You can’t have it both ways. If Canberra is already an afl town how is that going to help the afl much expanding there? It’s another Tasmania then.

Christchurch for nrl has a good mix of existing support and new fans.

 

[speedpeck23]

I've seen the thread. I'm literally the top contributor. It could've slipped me past, but I'm still get to see anything in that thread in which anybody from the AFL has said more than "never say never".

I think it's a worthy discussion, but the whole thread has spawned from those three words.

That's the same for all possible options for Team 20 irrespective of locations.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Tell me again that afl is just as popular as rugby codes in NZ I need a laugh.

Also it’s a moot point whether afl is more popular in Canberra than nrl is in Christchurch. Let’s say it is. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bigger opportunity for the nrl to open a club in Christchurch whereas Canberra presents a smaller opportunity and questionable impacts to GWS for AFL. It’s more clear that an nrl team in Christchurch is a bigger opportunity. There is a stadium (something missing from Canberra), there is momentum, there is a legitimate new market to tap into (people here tell me that Canberra is already an afl city, so less net new supporters).

You can’t have it both ways. If Canberra is already an afl town how is that going to help the afl much expanding there? It’s another Tasmania then.

Christchurch for nrl has a good mix of existing support and new fans.

You're being deliberately obtuse.

Canberra is a mixed-code town. You're not dumb. It's got a large enough AFL population to have a stable beginning, but enough of a non-AFL population to actually be worth expanding to.

And how does Christchurch represent a bigger opportunity than Canberra?

 

[Canberra Pear]

That's the same for all possible options for Team 20 irrespective of locations.

When asked about the discussion of the 20th team, Dillon raised a few places where the discussion has been focused on. He did not raise Brisbane or anywhere in Southeast Queensland.

All he has said about SEQ is "never say never", but that's not true of other prospects.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

If you mean swans are the biggest football club in terms of paid memberships and average crowds yes they are. Partly because they have to be, like you say all the time Wookie afl and league have a different economics model.

If Swans are the biggest in terms of general support, very unlikely, because if they were their tv viewership wouldn’t be a fraction of what the nrl clubs are in Sydney.

But what's the point of 'general support' if it doesn't manifest in revenue generaton?

It is neither the aims of the NRL or the AFL and its clubs to increase general support in a primary sense, it is to generate revenue to be able to run a competition and foster and promote the code generally.

Convincing people that they broadly "support" a team and the extent of their investment is the occasional watching on FTA TV (only worth $5 per person via their eyeballs on some advertisements) doesn't really achieve anything.

Nobody's denying here that RL teams might have more support in a broad sense such as that RL fans of other teams within Sydney would be more willing to watch a game as a neutral, than watch any NRL game. It's just that watching a game as a neutral really achieves nothing, whereas tens of thousands of Sydneysiders spending hundreds of dollars a year on tickets and memberships achieves a lot, and is representative of more Sydneysiders being willing to have deep investment into a Sydney game (as opposes to a neutral Sydney RL fan watching a neutral's game very shallow investment of a game that they don't do anything more than watch the game on FTA TV and they don't physically go to attend games as a netural, even to the extent of preliminary final tickets that NRL were giving away for free).

 

[Blackhawk42]

Do you mind if I ask where in the Riverina you're from?

I'm a bit unsold on grouping Albury with Canberra. Pretty much equidistant between Canberra and Melbourne by car, I figured it'd be harder to sway fans when we're as far away as the teams they already support. But happy to be proven wrong by someone who knows the area better.

I think the connection is stronger the further north of the border. I know lots of folks from Wagga in Canberra. As the nearest big city, lots already come here for work, study and sport. Last game at Manuka I saw a group with Turvey Park merch on. I can see a natural connection with Canberra and the region around Wagga.

Albury. And being from Albury means a 3 hour drive to Melbourne or Canberra isn't anything troublesome, even as a day trip.

The reason why a Canberra team should absolutely push to land a footprint here is because the facilities at the Lavington Sports Oval are prime for AFL matches nowadays. We've hosted literally every other sport in Australia for points (NRL, BBL, Shield cricket, A-League etc) except for the AFL.

I was hoping our council would make a hail Mary offer to Hawthorn about selling games here once Tassie is done, but it doesn't appear to be on the cards.

We have a strong GWS fanbase here, and a side from a local league even uses the Giants branding. As a result, if there was a team that jumped into the region and said 'hey, we're yours, and we're playing a game for points here every year', I feel as though it would take on pretty strongly.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Also it’s a moot point whether afl is more popular in Canberra than nrl is in Christchurch. Let’s say it is. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bigger opportunity for the nrl to open a club in Christchurch whereas Canberra presents a smaller opportunity

For this to be true, you have to admit that the AFL is a far bigger competition than the NRL (and therefore the minimum standards, such as turnover required in a given year to fund the operations of a team within a bigger competition are higher).

This is not something you've ever been willing to admit, though you're effectively admitting it now.

Why would the NRL have a bigger opportunity, but in a city where there's fewer fans?

The only way this make sense is if the NRL is simply a smaller competition and therefore you a smaller number of fans for an average or minimum standard team makes it viable.

 

[The Educator]

Tell me again that afl is just as popular as rugby codes in NZ I need a laugh.

OK, this guy could not be that stupid so he is deliberately trolling.

Also it’s a moot point whether afl is more popular in Canberra than nrl is in Christchurch. Let’s say it is.

It clearly is. You would need to be enormously delusional to think otherwise

Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bigger opportunity for the nrl to open a club in Christchurch whereas Canberra presents a smaller opportunity and questionable impacts to GWS for AFL. It’s more clear that an nrl team in Christchurch is a bigger opportunity. There is a stadium (something missing from Canberra), there is momentum, there is a legitimate new market to tap into (people here tell me that Canberra is already an afl city, so less net new supporters).

You can’t have it both ways. If Canberra is already an afl town how is that going to help the afl much expanding there? It’s another Tasmania then.

Christchurch for nrl has a good mix of existing support and new fans.

It has nothing to do with "having it both ways". You are now saying that Christchurch is a "bigger opportunity" for the NRL than Canberra is for the AFL. It probably is if you forget about the risk of the ability for the NRL to grasp the opportunity

You initially said NRL has several viable options and the AFL has none. Canberra is clearly a more viable option for the AFL than Christchurch is for the NRL.

The most likely outcome for a Christchurch NRL team is a perenial failure and enormous drain. Obviously it would be a huge win for the NRL if they could make it work and shift the culture but the requires the NRL behaving in a way it hasnt done historically and rugby union not getting its shit together.

You vastly over estimate the current support for RL in Christchurch and the appeal of the sport to shifting entrenched cultural popularity.

The difference with the AFL go in with a 50 year horizon in western Sydney and the Gold Coast and commitment to equalising resources and chance of success

 

[RedV3x]

Who laughed at it?

People once laughed at the idea of AFL in Sydney and Brisbane.
Well they're not laughing now are they. They are scared and running.
You have the NRL's leader doing all sorts of things to halt the growth of AFL in NRL "territory".

I don’t see that anyone did. Sydney swans and Brisbane lions are most certainly a part of the sporting landscape.

Well you're right. The Sydney Swans and Brisbane Lions are now a large part of the sporting landscape.
The Brisbane Lions rival the Broncos as the most attended professional sporting club in Brisbane.
The Sydney Swans at times rival the attendance of all the NRL home games in Sydney.

The reality is though that the

You are trying to dismiss all the opposition to the Sydney swans and Brisbane Lions
that these two teams had to overcome to get to the position that they bare now in.
But I don't care that your a throwback to these times.
I'm just glad that Australians appreciate Australian Football like I do
and I see a continuing and expanding role for Australian Football in Australia.

 

[RedV3x]

The only way this make sense is if the NRL is simply a smaller competition and therefore you a smaller number of fans for an average or minimum standard team makes it viable.

It would be far5 more productive if the NRL concentrated on a realistic focus.
A.T.M. all the NRL wants is to be like the AF and that's unfortunate because it's put the NRL on a collision course.

 

[RedV3x]

The AFL v NRL popularity debate in Canberra has been raging for decades and it's more nuanced than one data point can sum up.

The fact that there is such a strong debate means that Canberra is indeed ready.
So Canberra with an AFL team is going to many times AFL focused with an AFL team.

 

[hampton]

Obviously it would be a huge win for the NRL if they could make it work and shift the culture but the requires the NRL behaving in a way it hasnt done historically and rugby union not getting its shit together

Guess what! If you haven’t noticed rugby league has been getting its shit together and rugby union has been falling over itself.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Albury. And being from Albury means a 3 hour drive to Melbourne or Canberra isn't anything troublesome, even as a day trip.

The reason why a Canberra team should absolutely push to land a footprint here is because the facilities at the Lavington Sports Oval are prime for AFL matches nowadays. We've hosted literally every other sport in Australia for points (NRL, BBL, Shield cricket, A-League etc) except for the AFL.

I was hoping our council would make a hail Mary offer to Hawthorn about selling games here once Tassie is done, but it doesn't appear to be on the cards.

We have a strong GWS fanbase here, and a side from a local league even uses the Giants branding. As a result, if there was a team that jumped into the region and said 'hey, we're yours, and we're playing a game for points here every year', I feel as though it would take on pretty strongly.

I like the idea of tying in the Riverina, but I'm just cautious of overstretching a Canberra team before it's even started.

The Giants are having clear issues playing three home games away. The Suns are even having issues selling two home games. An AFL team playing only eight or nine games in Canberra is competing against the Raiders playing 11/12 games in the city.

I'd love for Canberra to be involved in the region, just don't know the best way about it. My approach would be to see an AFLW and preseason match in the region (alternating every year between Wagga and Albury). Then in the men's season I'd like to see a Victorian team hosting Canberra at either Wagga or Albury (or both if you can convince two Victorian teams), similar to what North is doing in WA.

 

[RedV3x]

If you haven’t noticed

We don't care. tell somebody who cares

 

[hampton]

It would be far5 more productive if the NRL concentrated on a realistic focus.
A.T.M. all the NRL wants is to be like the AF and that's unfortunate because it's put the NRL on a collision course.

Hardly, the nrl is playing chess while the afl has been caught flat footed playing checkers. International expansion, innovation in the game and events, domestic expansion, pacific strategy etc

Christchurch is not a big deal for the nrl because the scope of the nrl is smaller. It’s a big deal because it allows the game to expand deeper into NZ, unlocking fans and more elite pathways, negotiation with sky tv in Nz media rights, strong rivalry game with warriors and more. Ultimately it’s a strategy to becoming the major sport in nz.

 

[BigChippa52]

Hardly, the nrl is playing chess while the afl has been caught flat footed playing checkers. International expansion, innovation in the game and events, domestic expansion, pacific strategy etc

Christchurch is not a big deal for the nrl because the scope of the nrl is smaller. It’s a big deal because it allows the game to expand deeper into NZ, unlocking fans and more elite pathways, negotiation with sky tv in Nz media rights, strong rivalry game with warriors and more. Ultimately it’s a strategy to becoming the major sport in nz.

So, NRL isn't the major sport in NZ? NRL is so dependent on keeping up with the AFL. I appreciate the effort, but they won't get there

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Hardly, the nrl is playing chess while the afl has been caught flat footed playing checkers. International expansion, innovation in the game and events, domestic expansion, pacific strategy etc

Christchurch is not a big deal for the nrl because the scope of the nrl is smaller. It’s a big deal because it allows the game to expand deeper into NZ, unlocking fans and more elite pathways, negotiation with sky tv in Nz media rights, strong rivalry game with warriors and more. Ultimately it’s a strategy to becoming the major sport in nz.

Do you want people to take you seriously, or do you just want to gorilla style chest thump and say "NRL good, do good things" on a literal AFL form where the topic of discussion is a 20th AFL team?

What exactly are you trying to achieve here? What's your end goal? Your audience is AFL fans. If your want to convince us, you got to do more than chest thumping and effectively parroting back NRL vibes-based talking points. Surely you realise this? You can still be an NRL fan but actually think critically about the discussion points here?

 

[The Educator]

Guess what! If you haven’t noticed rugby league has been getting its shit together and rugby union has been falling over itself.

I agree that rugby union in A&NZ has been lost at sea......debatable how much rugby league has been "getting its shit together"

It is certainly a very different thing again to expect Union not renewing its first tier and rugby league being able to stick out the long grind it takes to shift culture and stick out long term investment.

 

[The Educator]

Hardly, the nrl is playing chess while the afl has been caught flat footed playing checkers. International expansion, innovation in the game and events, domestic expansion, pacific strategy etc

Christchurch is not a big deal for the nrl because the scope of the nrl is smaller. It’s a big deal because it allows the game to expand deeper into NZ, unlocking fans and more elite pathways, negotiation with sky tv in Nz media rights, strong rivalry game with warriors and more. Ultimately it’s a strategy to becoming the major sport in nz.

Oh good lord!

 

[loco3]

I like the idea of tying in the Riverina, but I'm just cautious of overstretching a Canberra team before it's even started.

The Giants are having clear issues playing three home games away. The Suns are even having issues selling two home games. An AFL team playing only eight or nine games in Canberra is competing against the Raiders playing 11/12 games in the city.

I'd love for Canberra to be involved in the region, just don't know the best way about it. My approach would be to see an AFLW and preseason match in the region (alternating every year between Wagga and Albury). Then in the men's season I'd like to see a Victorian team hosting Canberra at either Wagga or Albury (or both if you can convince two Victorian teams), similar to what North is doing in WA.

Surely the afl wouldn’t be giving a 12th game to that region? Thats 4 times as many games as currently played in Canberra. The afl would have other strategic priorities if they wanted to engage the regions (ie Sunshine Coast, Newcastle, keeping games in Darwin and Bunbury).

Wouldn’t the sensible outcome be 10 games in Canberra and 1 in Albury? The team wouldn’t really be losing any momentum or fan engagement in that situation.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Surely the afl wouldn’t be giving a 12th game to that region?

"That region"

It's 3.5hr away from Canberra. The same distance it is from Melbourne.

It's more akin to putting a game in Ballarat or Bendigo.

The afl would have other strategic priorities if they wanted to engage the regions (ie Sunshine Coast, Newcastle, keeping games in Darwin and Bunbury).

It also depends where the teams are willing to sell games.

Albury is a close option for any club wanting to grow their (essentially) Victorian base.