Player Watch #22: Todd Goldstein - Re-signed until end 2022!

Passmore

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I think that Geelong and the football world at large think they are closer to a flag than we are; and of course they could still win it this year, who knows; but I also think like you H2H that we are not as far away as everyone thinks.

I think we will go into next year with a much more positive mindset. With our new Coach and despite the gloomy prognostications of many on the Draft and Trading thread, in particular as to the quality of our midfield, if we retain Goldy and Higgo, get Jacobs amd Majak back, see further progression in Simpkin, Zurhaar, Thomas, LDU, Scott, Durdin and hopefully a nice pick in the draft, we should be able to push into the top 8. We need a bit of luck on the injury front - if you have a look at this years top 8, at the business end of the year, only *essendon and Collingwood really have extensive injury lists - who knows what we can achieve.

I would give Goldy his three years and Higgo also and then see how it all pans out. It may be a fail but it is almost certainly going to be a fail next year if we let these two very good footballers go elsewhere.
We should be in the top 8 this year. Even with the horrendous start we were bad luck and bad umpiring away from sneaking in. If we played remotely competent football in the first 9 weeks, we’d well and truly in.

If we can get something resembling the best out of Jacobs and Daw, couple that with improvement from Simpkin, LDU, Larkey, Zurhaar, Thomas etc then we can improve again.

Losing Higgins and Goldstein would be taking a step backwards.


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RobZombie

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That is the tricky question. Unlike the best midfielders in particular, who when they start to slow down a little and can be used more sparingly in the midfield/on ball or moved forward/back into different roles where their superior abilities still allow them to play valuable roles, there are not a lot of options for a slowing down big man.
But what does "slowing down" even mean for a big man? It's not like his speed over the ground is what sets him apart. It's that he can work his man over getting up and down the ground, and his skills are good enough that he can be used in link-up play instead of a liability without his kicking license (cf Daniel Gorringe). While he takes the regular sort of physical beating that all ruckmen do, he doesn't rely on overt physicality to get the job done.

So the things he's good at deteriorate less than the things he doesn't need or rely on. He's not approaching a cliff. 2+1 should be a no brainer, we should just be haggling over the cash.
 

Joshen

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Way to miss the point. I just don't think losing a guy who is a very good to excellent player for the low chances of success that would come with a second round draft pick could be seen in any way as a good result.
I haven't missed the point. It was a facetious comment, in response to a facetious comment.

Obviously, Williams and Nielsen didn't turn out the way we would have hoped. Assuming that the all draftees will end up like them is dumb. Goldy himself was a third round pick.

A second round pick is nothing to sneer at. If we cannot put faith in our recruiters to find players in early rounds then we may as well shut up shop. Obviously they do not always work out. Drafting is not an exact science. But an extra pick gives us some more options when it comes to addressing our needs.

I am not in the 'trade everyone' camp but I do think we could do a better job extracting some value from our list.

It's almost as if it's better to retain an established elite player ...
In all circumstances?

My original comment was that we should not overpay for Goldstein just because Geelong is reported to be interested.

If he goes it is not the end of the world. (I still think keeping him is our preferred option.)
 

Hearts to hearts

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If Goldy does leave we get nothing in return, right?
If we didn't pick up a free agent, we'd be compensated as long as the leaving player was on a big enough deal (and you'd think Goldy would have to be if he went at all). In the gift of the AFL (yikes) but you'd expect a pick after our pick in the second round would be likely.
 

Tas

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If we didn't pick up a free agent, we'd be compensated as long as the leaving player was on a big enough deal (and you'd think Goldy would have to be if he went at all). In the gift of the AFL (yikes) but you'd expect a pick after our pick in the second round would be likely.
The free agency system is a complete mess, it is a great system if you are a contender, not so hot when you are not. We would be severely penalised if we were to look at any other players should Goldy leave via free agency and we would likely get better compensation out of a trade. The system just makes it easier for contenders to get stars out of non-contenders and pay nothing for it.

It will be harder to dislodge established contenders out of the top 8 if they are well managed. We have put ourselves in a predicament because we haven't been well managed and now find ourselves with the shoe on the other foot.
 

Hearts to hearts

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The free agency system is a complete mess, it is a great system if you are a contender, not so hot when you are not.
Also a great system if you come last and the AFL decides you have lost someone who is worth a first round pick straight after your pick 1. Neither of those things is ever going to happen for North Melbourne, so our best bet is to become a contender.
 

the flying ham

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The free agency system is a complete mess, it is a great system if you are a contender, not so hot when you are not. We would be severely penalised if we were to look at any other players should Goldy leave via free agency and we would likely get better compensation out of a trade. The system just makes it easier for contenders to get stars out of non-contenders and pay nothing for it.

It will be harder to dislodge established contenders out of the top 8 if they are well managed. We have put ourselves in a predicament because we haven't been well managed and now find ourselves with the shoe on the other foot.
Worked well when we got Higgins Dal Santo and W80 for nothing.

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LuvtheKangas

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I wonder where Preuss currently sits on the JJ Liston..
Good question. I looked it up and he finished equal 9th. Not a bad effort.

 

Tas

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That's nothing to do with free agency

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You are saying where clubs are at do not affect attitudes with other players? If we were entrenched in the top 4 and had won a premiership recently, do you think Kelly would have said no to our offer or Blakey would have picked the Swans?

Scott only picked us because it was more convenient for him as he wanted to study Engineering here in Melbourne.

That very brief period where there was public optimism was significant for us, players line up to go to Geelong, Hawthorn and now Richmond and Collingwood are going to make it an even worse system for us to compete in. We need to break the shackles of mediocrity or we are just going to be another St Kilda, Melbourne and Bulldogs, that is a bitter pill to swallow for people who experienced the 70s and 90s but we are a long way off being that type of club who did whatever it took to succeed.
 
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the flying ham

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You are saying where clubs are at do not affect attitudes with other players? If we were entrenched in the top 4 and had won a premiership recently, do you think Kelly would have said no to our offer or Blakey would have picked the Swans?

Scott only picked us because it was more convenient for him as he wanted to stay Engineering here in Melbourne.

That very brief period where there was public optimism was significant for us, players line up to go to Geelong, Hawthorn and now Richmond and Collingwood are going to make it an even worse system for us to compete in. We need to break the shackles of mediocrity or we are just going to be another St Kilda, Melbourne and Bulldogs, that is a bitter pill to swallow for people who experienced the 70s and 90s but we are a long way off being that type of club who did whatever it took to succeed.
You said free agency is a mess. I disagreed. You have referenced a father son and a trade to support your point. Neither have anything to do with free agency.

Go back and look at the player movements associated with free agency, it is way overblown. We have done fairly well from it. Hardly a mess. If anything they should do away with compensation altogether, but that is another discussion. If we lose goldy as a free agent, so be it.
 
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DesertRoo

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Good question. I looked it up and he finished equal 9th. Not a bad effort.

Not bad at all, I was surprised and a bit happy to see Will Fordham and Mitch Hibberd names up there.
 

Tas

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Good question. I looked it up and he finished equal 9th. Not a bad effort.

He only played 10 games in the VFL, racked up 521 hitouts at an average of 52.1, our Campbell got 477 hitouts from 15 games for 31.8 average.
 

Tas

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You said free agency is a mess. I disagreed.
You think it is fine for clubs in the top 4 to replace retiring stars with mature aged stars of non-contenders at no cost to themselves?

You have referenced a father son and a trade to support your point. Neither have anything to do with free agency.
You missed the point. The destination club thing is a general attitude about where a club is and where it is heading. If our public perception is so bad that we can't even get some kids who have significant ties with the club motivated enough to join, and Kelly has been public about his reason for staying at GWS, then what hope do non-contenders have in attracting elite free agents? Sure, we can get some sideways movement of average players but if anyone had the chance to go to a contender vs go to us, who would pick us?

Go back and look at the player movements associated with free agency, it is way overblown. We have done fairly well from it. Hardly a mess. If anything they should do away with compensation altogether, but that is another discussion. If we lose goldy as a free agent, so be it.
We got Dal Santo, Higgins and Waite during that brief period there was any optimism for our prospects. We weren't roaring favourites but they were hardly stars at the time they moved. Higgins and Waite achieved more with us than they did at their former club.

First round comp players:

2012: Goddard went from St Kilda to Essendon
2013: Franklin went form Hawks to Swans. Thomas went from Collingwood to Carlton.
2014: Frawley went from Melbourne to Hawthorn
2015: No 1st round comp worthy movement
2016: No 1st round comp worthy movement
2017: Rockliff went from Brisbane to Port Adelaide. Motlop went from Geelong to Port Adelaide.
2018: Lynch went from Gold Coast to Richmond. Lycett went from West Coast to Port Adelaide.

Second round comp players:

2012: Pearce from Port Adelaide to Fremantle. Troy Chaplin from Port Adelaide to Richmond.
2013: Sylvia from Melbourne to Fremantle. Dal Santo from St Kilda to North.
2014: Higgins from Bulldogs to North. Malceski from Sydney to Gold Coast
2015: Suckling from Hawthorn to Bulldogs. Selwood from West Coast to Geelong. Leuenberger from Brisbane to Geelong
2016: Vickery from Richmond to Hawthorn. Wells from North to Collingwood. Maybe from Fremantle to Collingwood
2017: None
2018: Dahlhaus from Bulldogs to Geelong

The vast majority of the movement is from players jumping ship from clubs not expected to content to clubs expecting to contend or are on the expected rise. Some moved to go back to their original state. Some movement is lateral. The number that have moved downwards are extremely rare and didn't work out well.

It would be exceptionally hard for us to attract any kind of star to move to us, it was really only ridiculous levels of cash that we were in the conversation at all with some players and even then, the money alone was not enough. Most players who said no ended up signing contracts worse than the ones we offered. Not all were related to free agency, some where. Martin remained and Gaff chose not to pursue free agency. Our club was just not an attractive place at the time, we were losing mature age players and we were sinking out of the top 8. It is not an environment that makes it easy to attract free agents and makes you more prone to losing required players to clubs who are contending.

The only saving grace is that there are few players eligible to free agency, the AFLPA wants to make that period significantly shorter.
 

the flying ham

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You think it is fine for clubs in the top 4 to replace retiring stars with mature aged stars of non-contenders at no cost to themselves?



You missed the point. The destination club thing is a general attitude about where a club is and where it is heading. If our public perception is so bad that we can't even get some kids who have significant ties with the club motivated enough to join, and Kelly has been public about his reason for staying at GWS, then what hope do non-contenders have in attracting elite free agents? Sure, we can get some sideways movement of average players but if anyone had the chance to go to a contender vs go to us, who would pick us?



We got Dal Santo, Higgins and Waite during that brief period there was any optimism for our prospects. We weren't roaring favourites but they were hardly stars at the time they moved. Higgins and Waite achieved more with us than they did at their former club.

First round comp players:

2012: Goddard went from St Kilda to Essendon
2013: Franklin went form Hawks to Swans. Thomas went from Collingwood to Carlton.
2014: Frawley went from Melbourne to Hawthorn
2015: No 1st round comp worthy movement
2016: No 1st round comp worthy movement
2017: Rockliff went from Brisbane to Port Adelaide. Motlop went from Geelong to Port Adelaide.
2018: Lynch went from Gold Coast to Richmond. Lycett went from West Coast to Port Adelaide.

Second round comp players:

2012: Pearce from Port Adelaide to Fremantle. Troy Chaplin from Port Adelaide to Richmond.
2013: Sylvia from Melbourne to Fremantle. Dal Santo from St Kilda to North.
2014: Higgins from Bulldogs to North. Malceski from Sydney to Gold Coast
2015: Suckling from Hawthorn to Bulldogs. Selwood from West Coast to Geelong. Leuenberger from Brisbane to Geelong
2016: Vickery from Richmond to Hawthorn. Wells from North to Collingwood. Maybe from Fremantle to Collingwood
2017: None
2018: Dahlhaus from Bulldogs to Geelong

The vast majority of the movement is from players jumping ship from clubs not expected to content to clubs expecting to contend or are on the expected rise. Some moved to go back to their original state. Some movement is lateral. The number that have moved downwards are extremely rare and didn't work out well.

It would be exceptionally hard for us to attract any kind of star to move to us, it was really only ridiculous levels of cash that we were in the conversation at all with some players and even then, the money alone was not enough. Most players who said no ended up signing contracts worse than the ones we offered. Not all were related to free agency, some where. Martin remained and Gaff chose not to pursue free agency. Our club was just not an attractive place at the time, we were losing mature age players and we were sinking out of the top 8. It is not an environment that makes it easy to attract free agents and makes you more prone to losing required players to clubs who are contending.

The only saving grace is that there are few players eligible to free agency, the AFLPA wants to make that period significantly shorter.
We literally just picked up two players who could both be top 5 in the BnF. Blakey was a Academy player, born and bred at the Swans. You conveniently glossed over us getting Bailey Scott. Martin, Kelly, Gaff - all literally at the peak of their powers stayed at their incumbents - 16 other clubs missed them too.

The trading free agency apocalypse talk is rubbish. We attracted 4 players in the last off season - two of them could be top 5 in our BnF. The other two could well be very solid citizens next year. Because we missed the best players in the comp doesn't make us struggle to attract talent. If hawthorn want castaways like scully and Patton, they can have him. Melbourne look to be heavy hitters for some talent this year, likewise Saints. So much for top 4 clubs stealing the talent

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SonofSamsquanch

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That is the tricky question. Unlike the best midfielders in particular, who when they start to slow down a little and can be used more sparingly in the midfield/on ball or moved forward/back into different roles where their superior abilities still allow them to play valuable roles, there are not a lot of options for a slowing down big man.

My view is that because he has had an injury free career and is still very mobile, he probably has another 3 years in him. But a list manager has to consider very carefully, not so much the next 2 years but rather that third year of a new contract.

For the Cats, giving him 3 years is not so much of a risk, because they see their next flag in this small window of this year, next year and maybe in 2022.

The Cats have an ageing list of stars. Ablett is 35 and may well retire this year, Harry Taylor is 33 and looks certain to retire, Joel Selwood and Tom Hawkins - the All Australian Full Forward on the basis of goal assists rather than goals - no goals and no goal assists in the recent Qualifying Final - but I digress - both 31 and born in the same couple of months as Todd, while Patrick Dangerfield turns 30 next year.

So they may figure that if Goldy gives them a really good year next year and they snare a flag, if he quickly falls of the cliff afterwards, the risk of a third year is well warranted. Likewise they may see the same risk/reward in recruiting Higgo.

We are not in the same list situation as the Cats so maybe a third year for us is harder to justify.
TLDR/ Scotts topping up
 

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