4 axed for 3rd test

[Furn2]

Well at least England lost to New Zealand, right?

 

[placebo]

Australia's metrosexual cricket captain, old ball batsmen extraordinaire, selector and part time model clearly has a petulent streak and a problem with robust men. Symo, Huss, Katich and now Watson (that we know of). Its quite a list. Not to mention the many good players grubbing around in domestic cricket, because they didn't get golden boys nod.

See, there's no way around this sort of post, because it's either one of two things. Either:

1. You're a troll. But, you're a terrible troll. Outdated, repetitive, has been done 2409252 times...2/10.
2. You're not a troll. In that case, you're simply a moron who I wouldn't trust to hold my balls without squeezing them too tightly. Nothing you've said makes any sense, especially the crack about being an old ball batsmen (how many times has he come in early over the last couple of years), the crack about being a 'metrosexual' is both irrelevant and says more about you than it does about anyone else. The last two lines are nothing but innuendo.


So which is it my challenged friend, are you a poor troll or a moron?

 

[NSWCROW]

Well clearly Clarke is part of the problem, if not the entire problem. So...

This is a big call but this might be the DUMBEST post i've ever read on BF.....
and that's no mean feat mate

 

[beatnik]

Which players that were in the team have actually gone forwards since Clarke took over? Which position has Australia improved in?

here's my list of players that have gone 'forwards' since Pup took over:

Siddle, Pattinson, Johnson, Starc, Lyon, Warner, Wade, Hussey...the list goes on...might be easier to ask who has gone backwards? (i.e. Watto)

as for the team, we went from 5th place to one win from #1 ranking in the world (and if Patto was not injured, we might have won Adelaide and Perth and been sitting atop the rankings)

we beat Sri Lanka, Windies and South Africa away and smashed India and Sri Lanka at home and only shocker was 1 loss to NZ in a series we still won - so not bad for 18 months' work as skipper I would have thought (oh, not to mention he managed to be best batsman in the world in a Bradman-like calendar year whiule doing all of that)

yes, I'm also unhappy with current crisis but let's not rewrite history on what has been a pretty good run as skipper by Pup

peace

 

[Caesar]

Clearly we disagree.

I just struggle to see the logical basis for your desire to pin all the problems of the national team on Clarke and his leadership. Even the best leadership won't make a bad team good. Bad teams will always be wracked to one extent or another by internal dissent, low morale and blame games.

As far as I can see Clarke is doing most observable things right for a team in the rebuilding phase, echoing exactly the same things done by guys like Border and Ian Chappell:

- Leads by example
- Demands hard work and strict adherence to team rules and discipline
- Captains on the field with positive tactics, even when losing, backing the guys in the XI to deliver
- Seems to have a clear idea of the team culture he wants to build, and is ruthless about making it happen
- Isn't afraid to speak out publically and bluntly about his team performing badly, and therefore put pressure on himself and the other guys in the side to perform

It's not always going to win friends but every omlette has a few eggs. If guys like Hussey and Katich and Watson don't like Clarke then frankly, in and of itself, it doesn't matter a whole lot. They are/were relics from the last era, comfortable in their positions and enjoying the security that comes with being senior members of the team, happy with the status quo. Clarke is there to make a difference, create a hunger in the side, lay the foundations for the next era. In fact you could say that if he wasn't coming into conflict with the old guard to some degree, there would be questions over the strength of his leadership.

If Clarke comes out of this period of turbulence without having moulded a cohesive team with a rejuvenated and positive attitude, then I'll be the first to question whether he really has what it takes to lead the side back up the Test rankings. But until then, I'm satisfied that he at least appears to be doing the fundamentals right. I'm bewildered that you can't recognise that, regardless of whatever scuttlebutt you're getting from a bunch of old wives in first class cricket.

 

[Xsess]

All Clarke's fault, eh?

Pretty much. He leads a dysfunctional and divided team of men and that is a failure of leadership and judgement. This thread is 26 pages long and people are roughly divided whether its good or bad to drop half a team in the lead up to the next test. Magnify that sentiment x1000 and that will be the level of division this action will have on the team in India. Any leader is measured on their ability to unite and inspire but Clarkes style divides and demotivates.

 

[Black Diamond]

I love how the only player who seems to be preparing correctly and performing is the one who is the problem.

I also love how people are still clinging to that hilariously implausible chain email just to justify their weird hatred of Clarke.

It's about the teams performance. If Clarke is dragging others down then it's on him and him alone.

 

[western royboy]

I just struggle to see the logical basis for your desire to pin all the problems of the national team on Clarke and his leadership. Even the best leadership won't make a bad team good. Bad teams will always be wracked to one extent or another by internal dissent, low morale and blame games.

As far as I can see Clarke is doing most observable things right for a team in the rebuilding phase, echoing exactly the same things done by guys like Border and Ian Chappell:

- Leads by example
- Demands hard work and strict adherence to team rules and discipline
- Captains on the field with positive tactics, even when losing, putting faith in the players to deliver
- Seems to have a clear idea of the team culture he wants to build, and is ruthless about making it happen
- Isn't afraid to speak out publically and bluntly about his team performing badly, and therefore put pressure on himself and the other guys in the side to perform

It's not always going to win friends but every omlette has a few eggs. If guys like Hussey and Katich and Watson don't like Clarke then frankly, in and of itself, it doesn't matter a whole lot. They are/were relics from the last era, comfortable in their positions and enjoying the security that comes with being senior members of the team, happy with the status quo. Clarke is there to make a difference, create a hunger in the side, lay the foundations for the next era. In fact you could say that if he wasn't coming into conflict with the old guard to some degree, there would be questions over the strength of his leadership.

If Clarke fails to come out of this period of turbulence without having moulded a cohesive team with a rejuvenated and positive attitude, then I'll be the first to question whether he really has what it takes to lead the side back up the Test rankings. But until then, I'm satisfied that he at least appears to be doing the fundamentals right. I'm bewildered that you can't recognise that, regardless of whatever scuttlebutt you're getting from a bunch of old wives in first class cricket.

Perhaps I am closer to it than you, perhaps I have more information on which to base my opinion on than you. Either way I am entitled to my opinion, I am not ramming it down your throat. Clearly there is a problem there at the minute. I think Clarke and Arthur are part of it - you think differently leave it at that.

 

[sherb]

Which players that were in the team have actually gone forwards since Clarke took over? Which position has Australia improved in?

And who do you blame for this lack of improvement?

 

[Caesar]

Perhaps I am closer to it than you, perhaps I have more information on which to base my opinion on than you. Either way I am entitled to my opinion, I am not ramming it down your throat. Clearly there is a problem there at the minute. I think Clarke and Arthur are part of it - you think differently leave it at that.

'I'm entitled to my opinion' is a stupid statement. Of course you are, but it's not worth a damn unless you can argue its merits. This is a discussion board. Discuss it.

"I know something you don't know" is a pretty shitty justification for anything.

 

[sherb]

It's about the teams performance. If Clarke is dragging others down then it's on him and him alone.

And how does Clarke's "dragging others down" manifest itself exactly?

 

[western royboy]

'I'm entitled to my opinion' is a stupid statement. Of course you are, but it's not worth a damn unless you can argue its merits. This is a discussion board. Discuss it.

"I know something you don't know" is a pretty shitty justification for anything.

I have explained my position, you choose to ignore it - we disagree move on - you reckon Adam Crossthwaite was hard done by as I recall.

 

[rickyp]

Perhaps I am closer to it than you, perhaps I have more information on which to base my opinion on than you. Either way I am entitled to my opinion, I am not ramming it down your throat. Clearly there is a problem there at the minute. I think Clarke and Arthur are part of it - you think differently leave it at that.

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't make your opinion valid.

 

[Caesar]

I have explained my position, you choose to ignore it - we disagree move on - you reckon Adam Crossthwaite was hard done by as I recall.

Your basis for your position is "unnamed sources say Clarke is a shitty captain". Strong argument.

Whatever you think of my opinion on Crosthwaite, I clearly laid out my rationale and argued it, and addressed the counterpoints people raised. I find it interesting that you deflect to other discussions than engage in this one. A cynical person would infer that it says a lot about the strength of your position.

 

[00Stinger]

Pretty much. He leads a dysfunctional and divided team of men and that is a failure of leadership and judgement. This thread is 26 pages long and people are roughly divided whether its good or bad to drop half a team in the lead up to the next test. Magnify that sentiment x1000 and that will be the level of division this action will have on the team in India. Any leader is measured on their ability to unite and inspire but Clarkes style divides and demotivates.

Other than Pattinson, which of the other 3 will be missed?

 

[courtjester]

Pretty much. He leads a dysfunctional and divided team of men and that is a failure of leadership and judgement manifesting as lack of respect...Any leader is measured on their ability to unite and inspire but Clarkes style divides and demotivates.

No. I'd say the problem is Clarke has a number of ********s in his team (Watson being the ringleader) who don't want to put in the effort to reach the standard Clarke and Arthur require.

Far better for management to decide Clarke is their man now, and then allow him the dignity of not having to lead players that are causing issues and being tossers.

This is far from a new phenomenon. Many players who played with Bradman when he was younger disliked him for various reasons (Fingleton & O'Reilly chiefly), while those younger than him whom he led in the 1948 team had enormous admiration for him, apart from maybe Miller, but that was largely to do with Miller's philosophy on how the game should be played, as opposed to to Bradman's. Miller undoubtedly respected him though.

 

[Black Diamond]

And how does Clarke's "dragging others down" manifest itself exactly?

If there are different rules for different players (Clarke's mates v others) then I think we can agree this would hurt the team. I don't know for sure, but it's hard to think Hughes is being held to the same standard as Khawaja for example.

 

[beatnik]

I can understand why players on the fringes losing respect for management and coaching staff. The constant chopping and changing of the team, the resting of players for no good reason - all of it contributes to poor morale and lack of team culture. Then the management putting it all back on the players to come up with ways to solve the problem - I'd tell them to piss off too.

wrong.

there's nothing wrong with asking players to reflect for themselves and everything wrong with failing to do it...

read this and you'll see that this is the sort of wake-up call the teams needs: http://www.news.com.au/sport/james-...ciplinary-breach/story-fnect155-1226595682870

I already loved Patto but he is pure gold to me now - way to take your medicine like a man!

 

[western royboy]

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't make your opinion valid.

Doesn't make it not either, clearly there is a split here, each group has based its view on their own interpretation of the events and their own knowledge.

 

[Furn2]

here's my list of players that have gone 'forwards' since Pup took over:

Siddle, Pattinson, Johnson, Starc, Lyon, Warner, Wade, Hussey...the list goes on...might be easier to ask who has gone backwards? (i.e. Watto)

as for the team, we went from 5th place to one win from #1 ranking in the world (and if Patto was not injured, we might have won Adelaide and Perth and been sitting atop the rankings)

we beat Sri Lanka, Windies and South Africa away and smashed India and Sri Lanka at home and only shocker was 1 loss to NZ in a series we still won - so not bad for 18 months' work as skipper I would have thought (oh, not to mention he managed to be best batsman in the world in a Bradman-like calendar year whiule doing all of that)

yes, I'm also unhappy with current crisis but let's not rewrite history on what has been a pretty good run as skipper by Pup

peace

South Africa away was 1-1 as was NZ at home, doing a bit rewriting history yourself there.

 

[rickyp]

wrong.

there's nothing wrong with asking players to reflect for themselves and everything wrong with failing to do it...

read this and you'll see that this is the sort of wake-up call the teams needs: http://www.news.com.au/sport/james-...ciplinary-breach/story-fnect155-1226595682870

I already loved Patto but he is pure gold to me now - way to take your medicine like a man!

Beatnik, do you have a history outside of bigfooty with cricket journalism? Or anything of a similar nature?

 

[The_Reaper]

wrong.

there's nothing wrong with asking players to reflect for themselves and everything wrong with failing to do it...

read this and you'll see that this is the sort of wake-up call the teams needs: http://www.news.com.au/sport/james-...ciplinary-breach/story-fnect155-1226595682870

I already loved Patto but he is pure gold to me now - way to take your medicine like a man!

Patto's made of the right stuff.

He'll accept his mistake and grow up.

 

[beatnik]

South Africa away was 1-1 as was NZ at home, doing a bit rewriting history yourself there.

We won both series, what's your point?

 

[The_Reaper]

We won both series, what's your point?

We drew both series.

 

[sherb]

Clarke must holding back all those batsman in the shield who are averaging over 50

Everything is Clarke's fault, didn't you know?