5 Ruckmen

[costanza23]

We now have Ottens, Blake, West, D. Simpson and Mumford. I don't see the need for us to have rookied Mumford. Won't that just hinder West and D. Simpson's development and time on the ground?

The past few years we've always had 4 ruckmen on the list and if we needed, we just used another ruckman off the the VFL list to step in.

I would have thought that rookie drafting another key forward - in the event Nablett retires - was more of a priority.

 

[tenderwarrior]

Hawkins to replace N.Ablett, and Ottens to spend more time forward rotating in the ruck if we decide to play three talls. With five ruckmen expect the 'three ruckmen policy' to come into effect early in 2008.

 

[sarah.13]

Another ruckman in the rookie draft was an absolute necessity IMO and 4 ruckmen on the list was never going to be enough given;
Ottens is our main man and can be injury prone.
Blake has only played 33 games and could not carry the ruck on his own (physically not ready)
West and Dawson have not played a senior game between them. West might be able to play some senior football as the second string ala Blake.
Dawson will only be given 40% of game time in the Vfl as West was given over the last two years. That is all that should be expected of him.

If something were to happen to either Otto or Blake, West would be promoted as Bomber plays 2 rucks.
This would leave Dawson Simpson to ruck on his own in the Vfl.
Mumford is big and strong,has good skills and seems that he has knuckled down fitness wise. His selection was in consideration of the club as a whole and could be a blessing in disguise if he becomes a quality footballer because he was given a chance.
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[rizzo]

Mummy will play a forward role in the ressies. Keep in mind if an injury happens to any of our rucks mummy can come in.

Won't hinder any development of our players.

 

[WE Are Geelong]

If Geelong is ever considering to play 3 ruckman in the seniors at some point in time as they have often suggested they are open to doing then they wont have any issue with playing 3 bona fide ruckman in the VFL on any given day either.

Mumford is certainly there as a mature age body while West and Simpson progress towards becoming more senior players. If Mumford turns out to be better than that...well what a pick up.

I had my doubts at first but it's a win/win for mine at pick 57 in the rookie draft.

 

[CF]

Another ruckman in the rookie draft was an absolute necessity IMO and 4 ruckmen on the list was never going to be enough given;
Ottens is our main man and can be injury prone.
Blake has only played 33 games and could not carry the ruck on his own (physically not ready)
West and Dawson have not played a senior game between them. West might be able to play some senior football as the second string ala Blake.
Dawson will only be given 40% of game time in the Vfl as West was given over the last two years. That is all that should be expected of him.

If something were to happen to either Otto or Blake, West would be promoted as Bomber plays 2 rucks.
This would leave Dawson Simpson to ruck on his own in the Vfl.
Mumford is big and strong,has good skills and seems that he has knuckled down fitness wise. His selection was in consideration of the club as a whole and could be a blessing in disguise if he becomes a quality footballer because he was given a chance.
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good post

 

[3jimmy3]

This would leave Dawson Simpson to ruck on his own in the Vfl.
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Not if Mumford was still there on the VFL list. Didn't have to be rookied to play VFL. I really don't see why we needed five ruckmen, but I guess these people know what they're doing.

 

[sarah.13]

Not if Mumford was still there on the VFL list. Didn't have to be rookied to play VFL. I really don't see why we needed five ruckmen, but I guess these people know what they're doing.

Perhaps the recruitment staff and coaches see something in him that we don't.
Perhaps if Otto or Blake or both were injured,they might throw a 22 year old big bodied bloke into the ruck instead of throwing a lamb to the slaughter (Simpson).
The recruitment of Mumford leaves them with a few more options in case something disastrous were to happen.
Perhaps they just don't know what there doing!

 

[CF]

Not if Mumford was still there on the VFL list. Didn't have to be rookied to play VFL. I really don't see why we needed five ruckmen, but I guess these people know what they're doing.

Just look at who we let go this year....tall players. Mumford is a tall KPP player that can also play in the ruck if needed. We need him because what happens if one of our tall forwards is injured and NAblett doesn't come back? Our tall draft picks probably will only play VFL this year because tall juniors take much longer to develop normally. Mumford is already reasonably developed as a player and has shown he has the desire to go to the next level.

I don't think mumford has been recruited to be the 5th ruckman, he has been recruited to be a tall KPP.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Whats the scoop on West? I hear he is pretty handy skill wise and can be compared to a young Steven King... Can people fill me in on how he has been performing in the two's and if he is a realistic chance for senior ruck promotion next year?

Blake worries me a little...he is fantastic at the centre bounces, really good, but he just has limited ability outside of that initial contest. The thing that concerns me the most with Blake is his inability to take a pack mark or effect a hard spoil in a pack. I think letting King go was a mistake, and i hope Blake prooves me wrong...but i have my concerns.

 

[rizzo]

Whats the scoop on West? I hear he is pretty handy skill wise and can be compared to a young Steven King... Can people fill me in on how he has been performing in the two's and if he is a realistic chance for senior ruck promotion next year?

Blake worries me a little...he is fantastic at the centre bounces, really good, but he just has limited ability outside of that initial contest. The thing that concerns me the most with Blake is his inability to take a pack mark or effect a hard spoil in a pack. I think letting King go was a mistake, and i hope Blake prooves me wrong...but i have my concerns.

Trent West will be our number 1 ruckman once otto goes. He is athletic and is great around the ground. For a big man he has brilliant endurance. His skills are very good and he is good for a bi bloke on ground level.

Ruck wise he still needs to refine his hit outs. Sometimes they will miss sometimes they will be perfect.

He also has the ability to push forward and kick goals. While not as good as otto has a very similar game to him.

Expect him to really push Blake hard this year for a spot in the 22.

Then expect him in 2009 to claim blakes spot in the team.

Blake is a good tap ruckman but nothing else. Unfortunalty if he doesn't improve that part of his game it will pass him. The game demands ruckmen who can ruck and run. Something West Does and Blake doesn't.

Make no mistake blake will be feeling westy coming, can he keep his spot in the team? doubtful.

We have shown faith in westy by signing him for another two years, which will be enough for us to see where he is at.

I for one am on the West Bandwagon, will be a 200 gamer for the cats

Imagine in 2011, we will have the big fella in Dawson Simpson and the athletic West roaming around. Will compliment each other excellently.

 

[Asty]

Imagine in 2011, we will have the big fella in Dawson Simpson and the athletic West roaming around. Will compliment each other excellently.

Shame it won't do us any good as I hear the tigers have already booked the 2011 flag.

Blake reminds me a bit of Matthew Clarke. Good tap ruckman but not alot around the field. Although in later years Clarke started taking strong marks in defense a little more (filling the hole).

 

[DanA]

I think it is fine to have 5 ruckmen especially considering 3 are unproven and one (Blake) is still establishing himself.

If just one of West, Simpson or Mumford turnout to be a top quality ruckmen than we should be happy. The last thing we want is to end up like Collingwood, Carlton, St Kilda or Adelaide.

No ruckmen means no chance at a premeriship in my opinion.

 

[tenderwarrior]

It's been mentioned a few times that Mumford will play a key forward role rather than the ruck. I was under the impression that he was not all that mobile, or is that just a fitness issue, ie. he has good skills and is good below his knees but doesn't have a motor?

What do people think of West as a forward option? I have not seen alot of West, but he does move well for a big man. What is his marking and football smarts like? is he a natural footballer or more of an athletic type?

Dawson will be rotating off the bench and through the ruck and spending a little bit of time up forward. Like has been mentioned, will play around 40% max in the ruck in the VFL next year. He will be eased into it, and will be a project player who will not be expected to bear fruit before 2010.

Picking a mature bodied Ruckman is a masterstroke. It allows Dawson to develop slowly, and also allows experimentation with West if it is felt he has potential to play key forward. Sure, we may have been able to select someone like Renton who many tipped to go in the draft, but then we have two ruckmen to develop which would only compound the intitial dilemma.

Sure we could have had a mature-bodied ruckman as a VFL top up player instead, but it wouldn't have been Mumford as some have suggested because he was planning to play with Bendigo in 2008.

Obviously he showed something the coaches liked. He would not have been selected primarily as a long-term solution, but as an astute selection for the 'season' that the Geelong Football Club find themselves in. Who knows, he could prove to be a very important selection. Who knows, after all he is still only 22 - if he continues to get fitter and develop and impress he could find himself on the main list one day.

Especially if as mentioned, he is potentially able to play up forward.

 

[walks87]

I've played my whole entire footy career with mumford, and everyone keeps saying he is 22 but i know he was born in 86. if i do my maths correctly he is only 21 still. i know that shane would be picked not as a kpp but as a ruckman. the reason for geelong choosing him would be because of the amount of work he has been doing to get his fitness level right, and he has definately proved that. the guy is really fit now and when he moves down there to geelong and is in the right football enviroment he will only get better. it may seem like a ridiculous choice from the fans on the outer but this guy has worked really hard and obviously the recruiters have seen this and know there is potential there.

 

[tenderwarrior]

thanks, walks87.

Sounds like Mumford has worked really hard and is quite fit.

But can he play? Having played with him, what kind of Ruckman is he? Who would you say he is most like out of the current AFL ruckmen?

 

[GeeCat]

The imminent departure of Nathan and the expected improvement of Blakey will probably result in Otto spending larger portions of the game in the forward line. Depending on how Tomahawk and even Domsy shape up during the season, that may pave the way for West to make the odd cameo appearance helping Blakey handle the rucking duties. Essentially, and realistically, they are the three main rucks who will contend for positions in the seniors every week.

Dawson Simpson is probably even rawer than West at the same age (and that's something), whilst Mumford is abit of a filler in my eyes - he apparently as some upside, even if I can't see it, but nonetheless fills the speculative fifth ruck spot.

I think the important thing to keep in mind is team balance and the continuing changeover cycle of rucks that needs to take place every few years. On the latter (and touching slightly on the former - team balance), it's an issue I've always felt we haven't handled well. IMO, a club should realistically expect to carry 5 ruckmen - two to carry the load in the seniors every week, one capable/ready-made replacement (nipping at the heels, hopefully), and two raw, developing types (more or less rookie-type prospective picks). The cycle is such that usually the two raw types are replaced over the years more often than the others, if they don't look like making the grade - if they do, the hope is that they develop into capable back-ups, and down the line, into a capable senior ruck. As far as the others are concerned, senior ruckmen will retire/get injured/traded, back-ups who can't crack it/void of opportunities will be traded away (or cashed into the market for equal or greater value), and fresh blood will arrive.

Over the past few years, clubs like Port have done well to keep that cycle in tact, and have been rewarded for it. Think of Primus/Lade, with Brogan in the wings last time, and all the young developing rucks who have come and gone (Barry Brooks, Cain Ackland all traded away in the 'market', current younger guys like Giles, Minson, etc doing their time now). They understand the need to overturn ruck talent, yet maintain balance within the team list. I think, finally, we seem to have done the same.

 

[Rosso]

Refer to 2004. Kingy was the number 1 ruckman but struggled to get on the park. His back up, Sarge, tried hard but wasn't up to it. David Loats got injured but wasn't any good anyway and Jeff Smith came and went as a rookie selection.

The only positive to come out of having these 4 blokes as the sole ruckmen on our list was it forced Mooney to get a hell of a lot fitter, because he virtually became our number 1 ruck.

4 and 1 on the rookie list is ideal. The thing I love most is the mixture of rucks that we have on the list.

Otto just doesn't give up. His second and third efforts, especially when the pill hits the deck are fantastic. He is dangerous up forward and is a great contested mark around the ground.

Blakey is an old fashioned tap ruckman that plonks himself at CHB and is there as a link man if required. Despite his gangally action, he's actually fairly mobile for a big bloke too.

Westy is your utility in a ruckmans body. He appears to have a very good engine and has great skills for a bloke his size. He will really push for selection next season.

Smokey or Cougar is a giant. He is a project ruckman with a ready made ruckman build. Ruckwork, skills and endurance will be hammered into him but I've got the feeling that this kid will relish that sort of stuff.

Mummy appears more like your heavy artillary ruckman more likely to bash and crash than the others on our list. Has obviously put in some hard yards fitness wise and it'll be interesting to see where an AFL preseason gets him.

 

[GeeCat]

Refer to 2004. Kingy was the number 1 ruckman but struggled to get on the park. His back up, Sarge, tried hard but wasn't up to it. David Loats got injured but wasn't any good anyway and Jeff Smith came and went as a rookie selection.

The only positive to come out of having these 4 blokes as the sole ruckmen on our list was it forced Mooney to get a hell of a lot fitter, because he virtually became our number 1 ruck.

I'm not sure the primary consequence of having Moons rucking during that period was an increase in his fitness (I'd argue the continuing bash n' crash nature of it all took a toll on his body, which clearly wasn't prepared for full-time rucking)...

Anyway, I think what you've pointed out with the 2004 situation highlights what I'm getting at. The issue was twofold:

One, that we left Kingy rucking alone for too long (when the nature of the game demanded that at least two rucks were needed week in week out - Kingy coming up against two big, more refreshed bodies every week didn't help).

Two, and what I believe is a result of our blind faith toward/reluctance to support Kingy, is that for too long a period did we refuse to engage in that 'changeover cycle' of rucks. We thought Kingy could handle it all, we were wrong. That meant that when it finally became evidently clear to us (and it was far too late by then), we didn't have the necessary back-up ruck stocks in our list to support him and the team. Chambers was a battler at best, and should have been 'cashed back into the market' a long time ago. We had to bring in a scrubber like Loats, and immediately hope he'd stand up as the number 2 option. We ignored the ruck situation on our list for too long through drafts, and paid the price for it.

 

[walks87]

thanks, walks87.

Sounds like Mumford has worked really hard and is quite fit.

But can he play? Having played with him, what kind of Ruckman is he? Who would you say he is most like out of the current AFL ruckmen?

Shane is definately a crash and bash type ruckmen. He has the ability in our league if need be to crumb his own ruck work and give the hands off to the running player. The thing is with his new found fitness im not too sure how big his tank will be but i do know he is good in the congested packs feeding out the ball. it is hard to compare him to an afl ruckman becuase there really isnt ruckman his size, but i seriously believe that he could be a diamond in the rough with the way that he has been running on the roads down home and of his ex basketballing days he has the wonderful abiltity to palm as well as punch. I must say there was one game he punched the ball out of the centre to hit ff 45m out. he has an uncanny ability to punch the ball so far.

 

[Asty]

Shane is definately a crash and bash type ruckmen. He has the ability in our league if need be to crumb his own ruck work and give the hands off to the running player. The thing is with his new found fitness im not too sure how big his tank will be but i do know he is good in the congested packs feeding out the ball. it is hard to compare him to an afl ruckman becuase there really isnt ruckman his size, but i seriously believe that he could be a diamond in the rough with the way that he has been running on the roads down home and of his ex basketballing days he has the wonderful abiltity to palm as well as punch. I must say there was one game he punched the ball out of the centre to hit ff 45m out. he has an uncanny ability to punch the ball so far.

That description sounds similar to Ben Hudson.

 

[walks87]

That description sounds similar to Ben Hudson.

Yeah i know but ben hudson is a bit of a slug, i was going to say him, but i have a bit more bias to mumf

 

[Unwritten_Law]

I'm happy with the 4 (Ottens, Blake, West, Simpson) but if we were going to get a 5th ruck option I would have preferred a player potentially capable of holding down a key forward position in the future. A player like Mitch Clark that could play CHF and pinch hit in the ruck if we had injuries would have been a better fit - obviously you don't find too many of these in the rookie draft though!

 

[Asty]

I'm happy with the 4 (Ottens, Blake, West, Simpson) but if we were going to get a 5th ruck option I would have preferred a player potentially capable of holding down a key forward position in the future. A player like Mitch Clark that could play CHF and pinch hit in the ruck if we had injuries would have been a better fit - obviously you don't find too many of these in the rookie draft though!

Especially considering Mitch Clark went in the 1st round even after coming down with [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Meningococcal[/FONT]

 

[Unwritten_Law]

A player in the mould of Clark, not necessarily as naturally talented. Even the semi decent ones get snapped up on spec before the rookie draft though.