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A flaw in the Kent Kingsley argument

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GeeCat

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First off, this is not another 'bag Kent Kingsley' thread - or at least it is not intended to be one.

It amuses me to read the various posters, most of them advocates of the man in question, who are of the general view that Kent does not warrant a large majority of the criticism he garners from both the public and supporters alike, due to one, rather simplistic, reason - that being of the now tiredly used "Kingsley is/should be played as a 3rd tall".

Such an argument, to what I understand, runs along the lines of "Kingsley is being played out of position at FF. He is clearly a third tall, and will thrive as such when in a position where given the opposition's third best defender etc". This 'theory' seemingly aims to justify the usual down motions in the seasonally rollercoaster ride Geelong fans have, no doubt, now become accustomed to. People seem to be of the mind that, given the circumstances Kent plays through, that of against the opposition’s numero uno defender (which in itself is questionable), he plays to the restrictions well, and thus any criticism aimed at him is not at all warranted in the irrational amounts of which it is delivered.

Furthermore, and perhaps more particularly, many then are led to the assumption that, given the proper position and the ensuing proper opposing man, Kingsley will truly show his colours. I myself have found this ‘theory’ to be quite logical at times, and thought it to be the simple solution or excuse of hope for the moments in which we cringe when things don’t go right with Kent. Yet the more I think about it, and search through the true logic of such a theory, the more I find a flaw presenting itself.

Is not the main criticism of Kent his woeful kicking, and to a lesser extent, his lack of intensity and urgency to do those highly underrated one percenters? If this is true, then I fail to see how it will all be solved when Kingsley is given the opportunity to play in his ‘true position’. Do correct me if I’m wrong, but how would playing on a ‘easier’ opponent, so to speak, result in a sudden higher strike rate? If the problem lies in his kicking therein, then the quality of the person standing the mark will bear no effect to how he puts boot to ball.

At a glance, simple logic would indeed suggest that Kingsley playing in his arguably ‘true’ position would result in a higher return to that of Kingsley playing in a position unsuiting to him. Yet I’m not quite so sure what many followers of this logic expect to happen. Do they expect a higher goal return from the current 50 he contributes? I certainly would not.

Kingsley is getting as many signed and sealed deliveries as he ever will in his current position. One would have thought the reason we would be able to peg Kingsley as a third tall would be due to the availability of 2 other bigger, and better, talls. Following this rich vein of logic, would it not make sense to deliver more entries to the aforementioned two other talls ahead of Kingsley? I certainly wouldn’t imagine we’d be using them simply as decoys. If anything, Kingsley is looking at lesser opportunities for shots on goal (this, of course, disregarding the cheapees he gets from backs of packs when the game is won).

Kingsley is, what I believe to be, a prime example of ‘what you see is what you get’. Those searching for hope of improvement via such theories (which itself are more excuses than anything) are bound to be disappointed. He is an above average player milking the surrounding situations for all its worth (a thing I don’t consider bad considering all things). Every player has his flaws, yet it’s a rather unfortunate situation for both himself and the club that his are more strikingly noticeable than many of those around him. Of course, if he finds the solution to fixing them, he has the capacity to better - but much like that of every other player in the AFL.

Those seaching for such hope through this logic are searching in vain.
 
I agree with most of what you say GeeCat. Good post.

I've gotten used to people bagging Kent. I don't even try to counter their arguments anymore.

For a bloke that's kicked 217 goals for us over 5 seasons and only cost us pick 42 in the 2000 draft (traded to Kangas) I think he's paid himself off.
 
Whilst Kent needs to be congratulated on a fruitful return this year, I to share the feelings of GeeCat, a very sensible post here.

My problem is his kicking ability and lack of intensity. He clearly has mental demons in front of goal and they need to be fixed. But tackling and pressure on defenders is something that should not be effected by a mental state of mind, unless of course you are a bit on the soft side.

I also think he has a slight flaw in his overhead marking action which needs to be fixed. He seems to run too far under the ball and leaps very vertically with his body almost straight at the point of impact with the ball. All the great overhead marks that this game produces seem to take their marks with their hands outstretched but also marginally in front of their head at the point of impact with the ball, thus reducing the defenders chance to spoil and make direct contact.

Whilst this is a very astute post, many of us have to realise some players are what they are, and will never be changed. Kent has served us well, but with the improvement of NA and H, and a fully fit Ottens, it is forseeable that KK's days are numbered in our forward line.

His lack of kicking ability, and hardness at the footy is no doubt a major factor in why Pagan didn't rate him as a footballer.
 
To call it straight, that first post was like reading a high school essay. Overexcessive use of formal terms to deliver particularly little content, and content that has been repeated many times on this board.

I admit Kent's not great, and many of your points are valid. However I also believe in cutting the worst players from the team first, and there are a few to go through before it gets to KK.
 

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GeeCat,

Are you sure you're not Sammy, Sue's strapping young lad off Cats Claw? ;)

Anyway, i think many would argue it's a matter of psychology. You only have to look at the weekend's game to see what a bit of pressure can do to people. Nick Davis obviously thrived under it. Kent Kingsley went missing.

You are right on one count, though. It is an illogical argument in one sense. But, i'll use Matthew Lloyd as a example to further illustrate my point. Two years ago, Lloyd took like 10 marks and kicked 1.4 whilst playing on Matthew Scarlett, the best fullback in the competition. People put it down to an 'off night' given his impeccable record when kicking for goal. However, it's an odd coincidence, don't you think? He just happens to kick poorly the one night of the year he met Scarlett. I'm sure to some extent that had to do with where Scarlett made him lead and how far out etc... But 3 of them were definitely getable goals, for the adriotly skilled forward.

Now apply that to Kent Kingsley. As you rightly pointed out, many argue Kent is constantly 'out of his depth'. Thus, the pressure is doubled for him. He is playing on a Matthew Scarlett each week, because he should rather be playing on say, a Matthew Egan (when you consider our defensive structure). When that happens, he might kick straight, you just never know.

I'm not saying i necessarily adopt this philosophy, just offering it to the people on this board to consider. I think Kent Kingsley, whilst he tries very hard, is too concerned with life away from football to suceed at elite level. The same goes for Charlie Gardiner. They need to get serious.

Cheers.
 
Shaitan said:
I think Kent Kingsley, whilst he tries very hard, is too concerned with life away from football to suceed at elite level. The same goes for Charlie Gardiner. They need to get serious.Cheers.

Interesting point you raise. I remember reading about Kent's brother being some kind of personal assistant to Elle McPherson or some famous model (could be a bit off the mark here) and how Kent thought of joining him after having trouble breaking into an AFL side. Does anyone know much about his current pursuits outside of football? (i.e. Is he devoting a heap of time & energy into some venture?)
I've got no problems if he is (He had a good year this year), but I agree that he doesn't really look hungry for the game in the same way that GAJ or Moondog do while on the field. Now, after reading your post, I thought maybe he's just not the kind of guy who lives, breathes & bleeds aussie rules footy, which says to me, he has reached his potential for what he wants to put in.
 
There is 57 flaws in the argument of those who wish to trade him. Kingsley will not be traded anyone who suggests he will or should, has no idea.
 
bulletproof said:
There is 57 flaws in the argument of those who wish to trade him. Kingsley will not be traded anyone who suggests he will or should, has no idea.

Wise words bulletproof. I shudder to think where we’d manage an extra 57 goals without Kent and that’s just to break even. We’re looking to improve!
 
Im not one of the out position types either. To me he is a FF that cant kick straight. He has hardly any balanace/recovery around the lose balls like an Ablett or a Johnson so to me he is more of a mark and kick type player.As a third tall , he might be getting the third backman but would get less ball directed at him so would not get as many shots at goal. Does he have talent yes but I have to ask why there is no apparent improvement in set shots. I said at least 2 years ago the guy should spend hrs each day set shot kicking at specific target like one post to install a reliable shape and direction.To me setshot kicking is like so many other repeatble skills in numerous sports. A golfer will practice hitting thousands of balls, learn to hit differnt types of shots,fades,draws, low balls and they learn to trust their swing. KK has no idea where the ball will start or finish.He either has no commitment to his position or is beyond improvement.Either way he is taking sombody else spot, while he is in the side others are denied their chance. Bye,Bye KK
 
lowbo said:
To call it straight, that first post was like reading a high school essay.

:p

Whatever it takes to deliver and drive the main points home.

lowbo said:
I admit Kent's not great, and many of your points are valid. However I also believe in cutting the worst players from the team first, and there are a few to go through before it gets to KK.

Not once in the original post did I indicate the need to trade Kent. Not once.

In fact, let me clear this up one more time. I, like many, often come away filled with frustration built up through Kent's dismal plays. However, I've also come to realise I can't rely on Kent to kick a tidy 3.1 every game; he's going to have dirty nights in front of goal, he's going to frustrate me, he's going to leave me shaking my head more often than not.

And I've somehow accepted that Kent is all that. In the scheme of things, 50 goals is a wonderful return from a forward, tall or small, on the opposition's best defenders or the opposition's third best defenders. Many people get too caught up with the journey Kent takes to get there - it's one full of frustration - than realise 50 goals is a fair return either way; the man should get his kudos.

Sure, many may say he has the capacity or potential to kick even more if he can just straighten up a little, and in the case of this thread, just play in a suitable position. But isn't every AFL footballer not without his own 'justs'? Kent's may seem a little more simpler than most, but for a man who has been supposedly working on finding the key to his 'just' for many offseasons with little success, I can't see him finding it anymore time soon than he already has taken.

I said it before in the original post, Kent is an above average footballer milking the surrounding situations for all its worth. Perhaps unfortunately for the Geelong Football Club, that is the best we have on hand at the moment.
 
Shaitan said:
Are you sure you're not Sammy, Sue's strapping young lad off Cats Claw? ;)

:D

If I am, I haven't found the gene trait within me that allows me to fall in love with the dashing #45.

Shaitan said:
As you rightly pointed out, many argue Kent is constantly 'out of his depth'. Thus, the pressure is doubled for him. He is playing on a Matthew Scarlett each week, because he should rather be playing on say, a Matthew Egan (when you consider our defensive structure). When that happens, he might kick straight, you just never know.

One could argue though that Kingsley has had such oppurtunities to play on anyone but the opposition's best defender, or as you put it, a Matthew Scarlett, yet come away with results that hardly differ.

In the past few weeks, disregarding the Sydney game, Kent has been assigned an opponent who is not the opposition's 'Matthew Scarlett', yet has still failed to produce.

And yes, you may have a point with the 'psychological' side of the game. However, I don't think it is one where the man standing the mark bears any influence toward it. Kent's issue is more self belief than anything IMO. Give him the opposition's Matthew Scarlett or the opposition's Matthew Egan, and his kicking will still always come down to him.

His kicking problems are something that only he can change, not his opponent.
 
Shaitan said:
GeeCat,
He is playing on a Matthew Scarlett each week, because he should rather be playing on say, a Matthew Egan (when you consider our defensive structure). When that happens, he might kick straight, you just never know.

Cheers.

I remember Kent kicked 7 straight on Inspector Gadget (Dustbin Fletcher) last year so would technically disagree with you, but there are more blindingly obvious flaws in our fwd line than KK. He has had a great year and career highest return of 60 odd goals. If NAB/Otto are fit and firing next year that will free Kent up to play a role further up the ground (HFF) but his return will be significantly lower - maybe 30 goals, but if NAB/Otto are kicking 30-40 that more than covers KK. Great year though KK
 
GeeCat said:
In the past few weeks, disregarding the Sydney game, Kent has been assigned an opponent who is not the opposition's 'Matthew Scarlett', yet has still failed to produce.

In the Sydney game his opponent was Dempster. Any kind of top forward should have kicked goals on him. Kent kicked zero.

I don't want to think about what the real Matthew Scarlett would do to Kingsley.
 

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If hes had a great year then his trade value must be up.I am convinced that he is a bit player and bit players are a dime a dozen,really.Yes, he has been great value for the pick it cost us but in the end I say we cant go further forward with him in the side.Id love to trade him while he is worth something but Id doubt there would be many bites.

I'd offer him to Adelaide for that kid Watt or to Brisbane for one of their young kids.
 
The argument about Kent being a 3rd tall is a weak one, it basically says he isn't up to it. He's a FF, just not a very good one. The reason why he would perform better as a 3rd tall up forward is that his flaws are less noticable on a lesser player. Kent's biggest problem though is his kicking and lack of intensity, on a lesser forward his lack of intensity is hidden, he is given more space and the spoils are not as good, hence he gets more opportunites. The only problem is that his kicking is still s#!t. If he could improve this area (I forever live in hope :( ) then he will be a valuable asset. This year he has taken less shots from the flanks and pockets due to to our more direct footy, hence his conversion is up on last year.

Where the argument about his abilities as a 3rd tall has some credibility though is when another more dominant forward is present, in our case Ottens. If Ottens is there, Kingsley gets the 2nd or 3rd best defender, if he starts kicking goals, the opposition coach is not going to change his setup because he will not leave Ottens with a third tall backman. Hence Kingsley's value as a third tall. I think with players such as N.Ablett, Mackie and even Gardiner on our list, Kingsley's time in the 22 is limited however he can extend this time if he improves his kicking.

It's up to him, he's a forward, forwards kick goals, if he can't do that he will be out.
 
WestCat said:
Where the argument about his abilities as a 3rd tall has some credibility though is when another more dominant forward is present, in our case Ottens. If Ottens is there, Kingsley gets the 2nd or 3rd best defender, if he starts kicking goals, the opposition coach is not going to change his setup because he will not leave Ottens with a third tall backman. Hence Kingsley's value as a third tall. I think with players such as N.Ablett, Mackie and even Gardiner on our list, Kingsley's time in the 22 is limited however he can extend this time if he improves his kicking.

It's up to him, he's a forward, forwards kick goals, if he can't do that he will be out.

Well said. Kingsley's refusal to mark in front of his body and attempting to mark on his chest all the time has nothing to do with his opponent. Add the fact he can't mark overhead. Plus of course he's the only full forward in history who doesn't want to kick goals.
 
Partridge said:
Well said. Kingsley's refusal to mark in front of his body and attempting to mark on his chest all the time has nothing to do with his opponent. Add the fact he can't mark overhead. Plus of course he's the only full forward in history who doesn't want to kick goals.


It's why he struggles to get a kick on good FBs. If he can get a break on them with his pace, then he can just mark it on his chest, but without that break, he has no room to mark on his chest. So in other words, he needs to improve his marking as well. I still find it hard to understand how a player who is a shonky kick and can't mark the ball in front of him manages 54 goals in a season. I think the rest of our team is highly underrated.
 
WestCat said:
It's why he struggles to get a kick on good FBs. If he can get a break on them with his pace, then he can just mark it on his chest, but without that break, he has no room to mark on his chest. So in other words, he needs to improve his marking as well. I still find it hard to understand how a player who is a shonky kick and can't mark the ball in front of him manages 54 goals in a season. I think the rest of our team is highly underrated.
Id like to see the 54 put on video. Id like to see how many a man in a clown suit with the three foot long shoes could of got. Really if he was matched up next to Scarlo and the ball was a 50/50 I cant see him winning more than 1 in ten
 

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