A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[RedV3x]

From my time in Canada, AR had leagues in five provinces, RL in three, and many of those teams were rugby union clubs that fielded a side for a bit of fun. The AR juniors was miles ahead of RL juniors.

Australian Football now has the status of a "national sport" in Canada and played in all of the southern provinces.

 

[Ticky009]

Firstly it's a British paper.
The OFFICIAL rugby league participation is 100,000 players in a state population of over 8 million that's %1.25
so saying Australian Football has a participation rate in Western Sydney of %1.0 is pretty good for a sport almost new to the area.
Claiming %24 (that's one in four) of people play rugby league is an absolute joke.
Adding tag and touch figures is a total joke.

Then there's the you beaut NRL recruitment of 13-15 year olds which we can't fight against.

Sitting teenagers down and offering them medical cover and contracts when AFL players aren't up for draft until 18 years old is difficult to fight against when a lot of these kids play both sports at that age still.

 

[Bjo187]

Speaking of NRL, I see now Perth are looking to come in as a new club but under the north sydney bears title. So Perth bears playing 80 percent games in Perth and 2 or 3 at north Sydney oval.

This is basically my idea of what the AFL should have done when establishing a second sydney team. Instead of the s**t offer to north to relocate to gold coast, they should have offered north to become north sydney retaining 3 home games in Melbourne. Would have been 10x more successful than starting from absolute scratch in western sydney, as it would have retained the north Melbourne fans with the few home games and other vic games. Opportunity missed not putting in a team in north sydney with the backing of an already rusted on supporter base.

 

[RedV3x]

Instead of the s**t offer to north to relocate to gold coast,

It was a good offer and the "Northern Roos" would have fitted in nicely.

they should have offered north to become north sydney

They basically did that but North was so dumb that they said immediately that there was no way they were shifting.

Would have been 10x more successful than starting from absolute scratch in western sydney,

The Roos might have had a little more traction in the begginning but I see GWS as having ultimately more potential.

it would have retained the north Melbourne fans with the few home games

Not doing terribly well in Tasmania a.t.m. and that's a "football" state.

Opportunity missed not putting in a team in north sydney with the backing of an already rusted on supporter base.

If the AFL had thought really long term they would have established the North Sydney Swans which they basically are, but they didn't.

 

[Magpie03]

Speaking of NRL, I see now Perth are looking to come in as a new club but under the north sydney bears title. So Perth bears playing 80 percent games in Perth and 2 or 3 at north Sydney oval.

This is basically my idea of what the AFL should have done when establishing a second sydney team. Instead of the s**t offer to north to relocate to gold coast, they should have offered north to become north sydney retaining 3 home games in Melbourne. Would have been 10x more successful than starting from absolute scratch in western sydney, as it would have retained the north Melbourne fans with the few home games and other vic games. Opportunity missed not putting in a team in north sydney with the backing of an already rusted on supporter base.

No it wouldnt have.

North Melbourne became the Northern Kangaroos in an attempt to conquer the Sydney Market and even aligned with Campbelltown in the local comp to strengthen their position. That was about 25 years ago from memory, I was invited to their launch at the SCG when they played St Kilda by Citibank, fun night and a sore head the next morning. North though as history shows failed miserably to garner any sort of foothold up here and gave up hence the AFL creating the Giants.

 

[RedV3x]

No it wouldnt have.

North Melbourne became the Northern Kangaroos in an attempt to conquer the Sydney Market

But they said they were never going to move to Sydney, that is, they were always going to use Sydney.
The Sydney public saw through that and didn't appreciate being used with quite dismal results.
GWS results have always been better.

A smart person would have said to Sydney "maybe, it's not out of the question and depends upon the public's reaction."
At the same time a smart person would have said to Melbourne "show us that we don't want to move to Sydney"

 

[Magpie03]

But they said they were never going to move to Sydney, that is, they were always going to use Sydney.
The Sydney public saw through that and didn't appreciate being used with quite dismal results.
GWS results have always been better.

A smart person would have said to Sydney "maybe, it's not out of the question and depends upon the public's reaction."
At the same time a smart person would have said to Melbourne "show us that we don't want to move to Sydney"

They might have said that publicly to temper the unrest in the melbourne support base but blind freddy knew what they were up to.

 

[Bjo187]

You can't honestly think dipping your toe into the water playing out of the scg as a fly in team for a few games per year is the same as being permanently based in north sydney playing out of a redeveloped north sydney oval under the name of the north sydney kangaroos is the same thing.

As I said previously, in the book by Dr Hunter Fujak, stats show north sydney has the lowest interest in nrl out of any area in nsw and a population of over 1 million people without a professional sporting club. Plus you would have been retaining the Melbourne based roos fans by playing around 8 games in Victoria each year through both some home and away games. North Sydney has arguably the strongest afl interest in sydney, west sydney the lowest and with the most competition from other sports.

Something else though, having gone to high school in a multicultural suburb, things that are Australian are seen as 'not cool', in the more affluent areas of sydney, Australian things are seen as cool. I honestly don't think the private school suits in Melbourne at the AFL have any idea about this, the more 'ethnic' you are the better in these areas, they love bagging anything Australian do the high school kids in these tougher multicultural suburbs.

As an aside to all that, I also like the contrasting blue to the swans red that the roos have, I think it would have been great, they probably would have even gathered some support from the central coast areas too over time.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Like a broken record you are.

Not saying you are wrong either but it´s hilarious how hard you get anything negative AFL.

Quick remind us again where the AFL loses money and how it´s not popular outside of Australia.

LOL.... so threatened and upset by a game.

I only deal in facts, and some people struggle with that
Remind me how negative i have been with the Tassie bid and wanting GWS to stop playing games in Canberra so Canberra can have its own team

 

[Aussie in exile]

Speaking of NRL, I see now Perth are looking to come in as a new club but under the north sydney bears title. So Perth bears playing 80 percent games in Perth and 2 or 3 at north Sydney oval.

This is basically my idea of what the AFL should have done when establishing a second sydney team. Instead of the s**t offer to north to relocate to gold coast, they should have offered north to become north sydney retaining 3 home games in Melbourne. Would have been 10x more successful than starting from absolute scratch in western sydney, as it would have retained the north Melbourne fans with the few home games and other vic games. Opportunity missed not putting in a team in north sydney with the backing of an already rusted on supporter base.

Zero chance of a NRL club in Perth all the while Peter V'landys is at the helm.
Another club in Queensland before that happens i would think.

 

[RedV3x]

North Sydney has arguably the strongest afl interest in sydney,

And that is where the Swans garnered a lot of support - north, hills, eastern suburbs and inner west.
You cannot double dip and quite frankly I don't know where the support for the Roos was supposed to come from in Sydney.
At least the Roos had the option of Gold coast to themselves.. and Canberra... and Ballarat... and Tasmainia
i think you're flogging a dead ....roo.

 

[RedV3x]

Remind me how negative i have been with the Tassie bid and wanting GWS to stop playing games in Canberra so Canberra can have its own team

A Tasmanian team doesn't exist so you're on save ground there.
How stopping AFL games in Canberra is going to promote AFL in Canberra is beyond me.

 

[juddy_Like]

Yes, you probably should move on since you cannot comprehend plain English.
For what ever reason the WCE stated behind Fremantle in their AFLW quest.
From my experience they weren't terribly interested in AFLW where as Fremantle was.
That's probably the same thinking the AFL had.

Stated behind or do you mean started behind?
In your previous post, is it your or you’re?
You sure you comprehend plain English yourself champ?” Regardless I’ll probably lay off the personal insults.

Again, we were interested and wanted a team from Day 1. That’s why we applied when quite a few clubs didn’t.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Aussie in exile]

A Tasmanian team doesn't exist so you're on save ground there.
How stopping AFL games in Canberra is going to promote AFL in Canberra is beyond me.

I'm 100% behind Tassie having there own team. Look at my posts on the subject

I'm not advocating games not being played in Canberra. I want Canberra to have their own team, and that won't happen all the while GWS play some games there.

 

[YeahGnar]

Sydney and GWS are both fully owned by the AFL, and make a massive loss every year.

AFL might not be smart, but geez they wouldn't really be this stupid, right?

 

[Bjo187]

Zero chance of a NRL club in Perth all the while Peter V'landys is at the helm.
Another club in Queensland before that happens i would think.

He already endorsed the idea.

 

[Aussie in exile]

He already endorsed the idea.

I must have missed that.

 

[RedV3x]

I'm 100% behind Tassie having there own team. Look at my posts on the subject

As i said, A team that doesn't exist yet. why don't you tell us about an existing team that you like.

I'm not advocating games not being played in Canberra. I want Canberra to have their own team, and that won't happen all the while GWS play some games there.

Well GWS are playing games in Canberra until Canberra gets it's own team. You'd be all for that then.

 

[RedV3x]

Regardless I’ll probably lay off the personal insults.

Well, unless you delete you statements they stand so add hypocrite, boring monotonous, unimaginative tedious etc to your list.
All I can do is re-state the obvious in that WCE started behind Fremantle in their AFLW endeavours for whatever reasons.

 

[BringBackTorps]

AFL fails to win over western Sydney and is underestimating the NRL

Figures have revealed that just one per cent of sports participants in western Sydney are playing Aussie Rules, adding pressure on the AFL to help the Giants land the Tigers superstar.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I read this article and thought it flew in the face of everything else we are being told.

Is this just the RL based newspapers trying some scare-mongering ??

GWS sacked its coach last week, has greatly underperformed, winning only 2 games, & has had some disappointing home crowds (cf its average of c.11k pre-covid).
Bad news sells, time for a "doom article". There are, however, "lies, damned lies, & stastistics"!

The Daily Mail article does:-

. not mention WS male contact RL nos.; & that these have been in a long term, severe decline throughout all Greater Sydney (excluding the Penrith District RL comp.).

. not mention all Sydney GR snr & jnr RL comps have had to combine in recent years, due to the severe decline in male contact RL nos. (even Penrith District RL comp. was no longer discrete from U16 inclusive, to snrs).

. include Touch Football & Tag players to"boost" artificially "RL" nos.- but these are non-contact sports.
Touch Football is a massive sport, & is played, AFAIK, in a big majority of schools etc. in NSW, ACT, & Qld.

The Touch Football Association said "There are so many reasons that Touch Football is Australia’s largest [?] social sport, with 700,000 participants around the country (my emphases)".

About Touch Football

About Touch Football

touchfootball.com.au

. not mention that male & female League Tag & Oz Tag nos. (in contrast to male contact RL nos.) are growing very strongly- thus also boosting "rugby league" nos.

. not mention that Both Touch Football & Tag are widely played for 10 months of the year. AF, generally, is not.

It is very likely, therefore, that many of these players, playing an "easy-on-the body" non-contact game, could, & do, play in several comps. per year. Many registered players would, thus, be double/triple counted, boosting the "RL" nos. incorrectly.

(All sports- inc. AF- have some double/triple counting of the same players, in various formats of the same sport.

Soccer, which is also played 10 months per year, is likely to be the biggest "overcounter", as it is played in almost every primary & secondary school in Australia; & has multiple formats: school & club soccer, futsal/indoor soccer etc., school phys.ed programs etc.).

The NRL & GR RL clubs are heavily promoting summer Oz Tag (was a privately-run comp., but bought by the NRL in 2016) Eg. Asquith Facebook

"It so great we have community sport back, and what better way to keep the team together, and keep improving on your fitness and skills than playing Oz Tag.
Asquith Magpies and Hornsby & St Ives Junior Oztag have partnered up to offer all registered players a special discount".




. not mention that, in recent years in the MSM, multiple RL officials (inc. P. V'landys. A. Abdo T. Greenberg, P. Beattie, J. Grant etc.), ex- elite RL players, & RL journalists have been lamenting the decline of GR male contact RL nos., &/or the rise of AF, in all Sydney (some inc. WS), NSW & Qld.

(There are c. 80+ links in this Thread, & the Thread "What Are The Chances Of Footy Overtaking League" attesting to this).

In the MSM, P. Kent, G. Alexander, M. Chammas, & some GR regional RL experts etc. (all linked in this Thread) have specifically stated that the NRL etc. is using Tag & Touch nos. to deliberately downplay the severe decline in male contact nos.- just citing "participant" or "registered" (inc. Tag etc.) nos.

. not mention that, even prior to 2020 covid, the RL Annual Reports etc. have stopped giving the exact nos. of their regd. contact players! Why!

. assume that all touch & tag players are NRL fans. Anecdotally, some are not.

. cherrypick only Parramatta District, for a WS comparison of GR RL vs AF nos. The Parramatta District RL comp., in recent decades, has been GR RL's second biggest (to Penrith) in Sydney. AF is, obviously, far smaller in WS.

If it chose Inner WS, or NW Sydney, where GR AF is relatively strong vs GR RL, the WS comparison would have been more favourable for AF!

. not mention that regd. GR AF nos. have more than doubled in the WS area since 2012! Elite AF has given RL a 100 year head-start in WS, so is good growth.

. not mention that, in the last 2 years, some Sydney RL comps. began U5 Divisions (not the traditional U6 first year)- but continue with U6 Divs. also.
GR soccer skill programs, for many years, start from 3 y.o. AF Auskick starts from Prep, U6- so not true & equitable comparisons.








2.

If the AFL are thinking of putting in another NSW team after Tassie they can get ducked.

No current or previous AFL executives have stated a 3rd AFL club in Sydney is being considered in the near future- only a 19th Club in Tasmania.

K. Sheedy is a very influential figure in AF, & he stated in April 2022 that a 20th AFL club should be located in Newcastle- but gave no approx. dates.

On 23.3.22, A. Demetriou said

“Greater Western Sydney, even though it didn’t know anything about AFL football (in 2008) and it wasn’t an AFL market; it ticked all the boxes (big non-AF population). It was the perfect place to put an AFL team” he said.
“I’ve often said this is a 20-to-30-year build in Greater Western Sydney, but it’ll be a very, very big club one day (my words in brackets, & emphases)".

Giants will be a ‘very, very big club’ but Suns just ‘a small, niche’ one says ex-AFL boss Andrew Demetriou

Giants will be a ‘very, very big club’ but Suns just ‘a small, niche’ one says ex-AFL boss

www.foxsports.com.au

Demetriou also stated, in the above link, that the AFL is very keen to expand into new, non-AF areas with a "large population, diversity, massive growth potential". This implies that Sydney 3 will, eventually, be on the agenda (ABS estimate, late 2019 is that very influential & wealthy Sydney will have a pop. c. 8m in 2050).

I, & almost everyone who comments on this Thread, have stated there will be no 3rd AFL club in Sydney, until GWS is financially stable, & self-sufficient. Probably many years after 2022.








3.

Its total flapdoodle to suggest there is going to be another team in NSW in at least 40 years all the while there is the huge financial blackhole called GWS, and anybody who does is a total ninnyhammer.

Why do you think GWS is a "huge financial black hole"?

You have been commenting on this Thread for 4+ years.

You have read the comments (linked in this Thread) from AFL officials & expert finance journalists, since 2019, that the $418m pa Rights deal (initially until 2022) was achieved because the AFL was introducing 9 games pw- & they specifically apportioned the 9th game to be worth to the AFL Rights (probably including much improved Govt./Council/private funding, multiple GR expansion benefits etc. in NSW & Qld.) c. $50m to $58m pa.

Clearly, the inclusion of GCFC & GWS are much more than paying for themselves.

In my above post#4531 re the forced amalgamation of the NSW North Coast Group 2 & Group 3 U15 distant comps., why do you think this has occurred?
And why would the NRL's Canterbury Bulldogs (in SW Sydney, much further than other NRL/NSWRL Cup clubs) be managing this U15's comp.?

 

[Bjo187]

GWS sacked its coach last week, has underperformed, winning only 2 games, & has had some disapponting home crowds (cf its average of c.11k pre-covid).
Bad news sells, time for a "doom article".

There are, however, "lies, damned lies, & stastistics"!

The Daily Mail article does:-

. not mention WS male contact RL nos.; & that these have been in a long term, severe decline throughout all Greater Sydney (excluding the Penrith District RL comp.).

. not mention all Sydney GR snr & jnr RL comps have had to combine in recent years, due to the severe decline in male contact RL nos. (even Penrith District RL comp. from U16 inclusive, to snrs).

. include Touch Football & Tag players to"boost" artifically "RL" nos.- but these are non-contact sports.
Touch Football is a massive sport in Australia, officially claiming 700k players, & is played, AFAIK, in a big majority of schools in NSW, ACT, & Qld.

The Touch Football Association said

"Why Play Touch?​

There are so many reasons that Touch Football is Australia’s largest social sport, with 700,000 participants around the country".

About Touch Football

About Touch Football

touchfootball.com.au

. not mention that male & female League Tag nos, cf male contact RL nos., are growing very strongly- thus also boosting "rugby league" nos.

. not mention that Both Touch Football & Tag are widely played for 10 months of the year. AF, generally, is not.

It is very likely, therefore, that many of these players, playing an "easy-on-the body" non-contact game, could, & do, play in several comps. per year. Many registered players would be counted several times, boosting the "RL" nos. artificially.

(All sports- inc. AF- have some double/triple counting of the same players, in various formats of the same sport.

Soccer, which is also played 10 months per year, is likley to be the biggest, as it is played in almost every primary & secondary school in Australia- with multiple formats: school & club soccer, futsal/indoor soccer etc., school phys.ed programs).

An example of the heavy promotion by RL clubs of summer Tag.

The NRL & GR RL clubs are heavily promoting summer OzTag (a privately-run comp., which it bought out in 2016) amongst GR RL clubs etc.

eg Asquith JRLC facebook

"It so great we have community sport back, and what better way to keep the team together, and keep improving on your fitness and skills than playing Oz Tag.
It's also a great way for anyone wanting to put there toe in the water and join a team and try something new.
Asquith Magpies and Hornsby & St Ives Junior Oztag
have partnered up to offer all registered players a special discount.
Contact your team manager or the club for details....
See more "




. not mention that, in recent years in the MSM, multiple RL experts have been lamenting the decline of GR male contact RL nos. in all Sydney, & the rise of AF.
P. Kent, G. Alexander, P. Chammas (SMH), & some GR regional RL experts etc. have specifically stated that the NRL etc. is using Tag & Touch nos. to downplay the severe decline in male contact nos.
(There are c. 60+ links in this Thread, & "What Are The Chances Of Footy Overtaking League "Thread attesting to this).

. chose, for a WS comparison of RL vs AF, only the Parramatta District RL comp., to compare it with AF nos. there. The Parramatta District RL comp., in recent decades, has been GR RL's second biggest (to Penrith) in Sydney. Contact RL nos. are obviously much superior there, AF is much smaller in WS!

If it chose Inner WS, or NW Sydney, where AF is relatively strong vs RL, the WS comparison would have been more favourable for AF!

. not mention that regd. GR AF nos. have more than doubled in the WS area since 2012!

. not mention that, in the last 2 years, some RL comps. in Sydney introduced U5 Divisions (not their traditional U6)- but still continue with U6 also.
AF, with Auskick, starts for Prep kids, U6- so, inevitably, not a true & equitable comparison.








2.

AFAIK, no current AFL executives have stated a 3rd AFL club in Sydney is being considered in the near future- only a 19th Club in Tasmania.


K. Shedy is an influential figure in AF, & he stated in April 2022 that a 20th AFL club should be located in Newcastle- but gave no approx. dates.


On 23.3.22, A. Demetriou said

“Greater Western Sydney, even though it didn’t know anything about AFL football (in 2008- my words) and it wasn’t an AFL market; it ticked all the boxes. It was the perfect place to put an AFL team,” he said.
“I’ve often said this is a 20-to-30-year build in Greater Western Sydney, but it’ll be a very, very big club one day".

Giants will be a ‘very, very big club’ but Suns just ‘a small, niche’ one says ex-AFL boss Andrew Demetriou​

Giants will be a ‘very, very big club’ but Suns just ‘a small, niche’ one says ex-AFL boss".

www.foxsports.com.au


Demetriou also stated, in the above link, that the AFL is very keen to expand into demographics it does not, currently, have strong support, offering "the most potential". It wants to expand into non-AF areas, wihich have a big population. This implies that Sydney 3 will be on the agenda.


I, & almost everyone who comments on this Thread, states there will be no 3rd AFL club in Sydney, until GWS is financially stable, & self-sufficient, probably. many years from 2022








3.

Why do you think GWS is a "huge financial black hole"?

You have been commenting on this Thread for 4+ years.

You have read the comments (linked in this Thread) from AFL officials & expert finance journalists, since 2019, that the $418m pa Rights deal (initially until 2022) was achieved because the AFL was introducing 9 games pw- & they specifically apportioned the 9th game to be worth to the AFL (probably including much improved Govt./Council/private funding, multiple GR expansion benefits etc. in NSW & Qld.) c. $50m to $58m pa.

Clearly, the inclusion of GCFC & GWs are much more than paying for themselves.


In my post #4531, re the forced amalgamation of the Group 2 & Group 3 comps. for the U15's, why do you think this has occurred?
And why would the NRL's Canterbury Bulldogs (in SW Sydney, relative to other NRL clubs, very far from the North Coast) be managing this U15's comp.?

All good points, however Demetriou is covering for his own idea in his comments, so he will be dead and gone before he is even judged by his success on bringing in gws.

Gws need to get Clarkson and more importantly dusty to get some profile in a tough market. In Sydney you need a star to sell the product, dusty is second only to Franklin in this regard in the AFL. Also it helps that he partly grew up in gws himself. So that and engaging with local footy clubs to create a specialised supporter group to bring some atmosphere to games at giants stadium are a few things that could make it 'cool' to be a giants fan.

 

[Coolangatta]

All good points, however Demetriou is covering for his own idea in his comments, so he will be dead and gone before he is even judged by his success on bringing in gws.

Gws need to get Clarkson and more importantly dusty to get some profile in a tough market. In Sydney you need a star to sell the product, dusty is second only to Franklin in this regard in the AFL. Also it helps that he partly grew up in gws himself. So that and engaging with local footy clubs to create a specialised supporter group to bring some atmosphere to games at giants stadium are a few things that could make it 'cool' to be a giants fan.

Can GWS afford both Clarko and Dusty? I would've thought Dusty goes to GWS and maybe Hird takes over as coach (he'd still be considered a "big" name Hirdy, unproven coach but great big name former player of the game), Clarkson to the Suns but in a Paul Roos type role instead of head coach since Dew might have the Suns on the up.

 

[Bjo187]

Can GWS afford both Clarko and Dusty? I would've thought Dusty goes to GWS and maybe Hird takes over as coach (he'd still be considered a "big" name Hirdy, unproven coach but great big name former player of the game), Clarkson to the Suns but in a Paul Roos type role instead of head coach since Dew might have the Suns on the up.

They are separate caps though aren't they, coaching and player? Coaching should be fine as Cameron isn't contracted next year so it's a clean slate, on the player cap they'd have to ask Kelly and Coniglio to take a 10 or 20 percent pay cut on their ridiculous salaries (which as captain's you'd hope they would), plus trade out a taranto or someone like that. They would also need to get the AFL to pay a promotions part to dusty to get it over the line. So say for example 800k playing plus 500k for game development.

 

[Coolangatta]

They are separate caps though aren't they, coaching and player? Coaching should be fine as Cameron isn't contracted next year so it's a clean slate, on the player cap they'd have to ask Kelly and Coniglio to take a 10 or 20 percent pay cut on their ridiculous salaries (which as captain's you'd hope they would), plus trade out a taranto or someone like that. They would also need to get the AFL to pay a promotions part to dusty to get it over the line. So say for example 800k playing plus 500k for game development.

Yeah, that might work, but don't the AFL want the Suns to be just as successful as the Giants? I don't think Dew should be sacked if he can get the Suns to at least 10 wins without Ben King, but if I were Gil, I'd want Clarko there in a Roos role. The Giants need a good coach, yes, but surely there are other options who'd be good for them. See who the fans want if they couldn't get Clarkson, I guess. Yze might be good.

 

[Bjo187]

Yeah, that might work, but don't the AFL want the Suns to be just as successful as the Giants? I don't think Dew should be sacked if he can get the Suns to at least 10 wins without Ben King, but if I were Gil, I'd want Clarko there in a Roos role. The Giants need a good coach, yes, but surely there are other options who'd be good for them. See who the fans want if they couldn't get Clarkson, I guess. Yze might be good.

I think clarko wants to be head coach though not a coaching director, plus dew is loved by Cochrane, Evans and the players, so I think they will see it through with him. They look impressive at the moment and have buy in from everybody at the club for the first time in the clubs history.