AAMI Stadium $5.5mill Lights Upgrade

[Mego Red]

In a perfect world, I'd love a new multi-purpose stadium within the CBD, because quite frankly, I loathe AAMI Stadium.

I honestly can't be bothered dragging up statistical, economical or political data to justify my argument, so here are my reasons, not based upon anything other than my opinion and what affects me personally. (of course, with my trademark of predictable lashings of bias)

The Gospel according to Matt.

Bravo.

 

[Southerntakeover]

This is my point.

The powers that be (SANFL, AFL, State and Federal Governments, and *cringe* Adelaide City Council) should get together and at least commit to looking at it further, instead of continuing to throw money at a problem that isn't getting any better.

A hint of foresight instead of taking the quick and easy way out.

Sorry, i missed your last post because it was the last one on the other page.

I would agree with you on that atleast, and certainly hope the government is doing the proper research on this... if not a new stadium, upgrading the public transport to AAMI stadium at the very least would be nice i agree. Ive only been asking if anyone has the proper information to support the debate, not arguing for or against upgrades.

On a side bar though, AAMI stadium has never stopped me from attending a game, and it never will.

 

[Mego Red]

Matt I agree with most of your points and even in the face of the continual upgrading of the MCG, Telstra Dome and now what Perth are doing I find it interesting that people are still arguing that we dont need it.

They used to say we didn't need a team in the AFL, too.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Any ideas then? How about an opinion.

Ahh, ive been trying to avoid putting one down, as itd be somewhat hypocritical of me.

To be honest, i simply want more information in order to form an educated opinion. For all i know the stadium could actually be the best option... ill admit to being sceptical though.

Just as food for thought though, and keeping in mind im not presenting this as anything definitive, id also like to see the potential benefits of investing that money into improving our states IT sector, or our education system as an alternative. Is a new expensive stadium the most pressing need for this state?

 

[Dogga79]

Ahh, ive been trying to avoid putting one down, as itd be somewhat hypocritical of me.

To be honest, i simply want more information in order to form an educated opinion. For all i know the stadium could actually be the best option... ill admit to being sceptical though.

Just as food for thought though, and keeping in mind im not presenting this as anything definitive, id also like to see the potential benefits of investing that money into improving our states IT sector, or our education system as an alternative. Is a new expensive stadium the most pressing need for this state?

I see what you are saying, but take this for example. There probably wasn't a pressing need when football Park was built either.

I just know if I had a few million bucks and i was looking to invest in a project that didn't involve a natural resource, it wouldn't be in South Australia. It screams cold fish.

 

[Southerntakeover]

I see what you are saying, but take this for example. There probably wasn't a pressing need when football Park was built either.

I just know if I had a few million bucks and i was looking to invest in a project that didn't involve a natural resource, it wouldn't be in South Australia. It screams cold fish.

There was for the SANFL who commissioned it... theyd had their falling out with the SACA and needed a high standard ground.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

I think you have two choices. To be that outraged after I use the shocking phrase "grannies on respirators," you're either:

1. being fake in order to win an argument on the internet, which is kind of sad, or;
2. actually that offended, which is kind of tragic.

I can see there are positives and negatives with both of those positions. Well, negatives and more negatives is more like it.



I agree. Has anyone said that? Or are you trying to distort opposing points of view so they seem less credible?



Downtown (equivalent to a "central business district" in British English) is a term used in North America when referring to a city's core, usually in a geographical, commercial, and community sense.

I think the most tragic and sad thing about this is that there are more and more people like you in the world today. I am a lot older than you and came from a more caring generation. And living and working in what is probably the least caring city on the planet, I can understand your thinking.
Now that I've anointed you as the then OIC of the me generation, you can now go off to what ever you do.


But as I asked you where downtown was in Adelaide, not what it was, I guess you don't really read threads properly either.


I've enjoyed our little chat. Bye.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

I wouldn't say Crow-mo hates change, he just champions economic responsibility. I agree we cant afford it but I still want a new stadium. There is always a way, and I am sure the mountain of cash we are going to get from the resources boom can fund a lot of new infrastructure.

As for the minority holding us back you are absolutely correct. It has always been the way that special interest groups and aging hipsters wet blanket popular opinion in SA.

Can we keep some perspective here. We need development, the right development. That doesn't include a sporting stadium that is owned privately.

We are in desperate need of infrastructure and transport upgrades before anything else. Both the north and south corridors are stretching further and further. Lets get the transport, hospital and schools, for these new areas first. And if we still like building further and further away from the city, then building a new stadium there wont mean a damn thing for those people who choose to live there anyway, because again it will be too far for them.
Catch 22.

And the word is hippies bye the way.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

The thing I want to know for those that say it isnt need is where does our club continue to grow by maintaining the status quo at AAMI ? How can we continue to build our member base when the membership is at its limit ?? Do you think that the aging and uncomfortable AAMI stadium will attract more future supporters over a newer stadium in the CBD ??

But it's not our stadium. We are mere tenants.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

They used to say we didn't need a team in the AFL, too.

On our own terms bucko, not the way it happened.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

I see what you are saying, but take this for example. There probably wasn't a pressing need when football Park was built either.

It's been mentioned before but Ill say it again. It was built because of a major rift between the SACA and the SANFL about being dictated to.
It was the home for the SANFL until the SACA thought they could stand over their tenants because they had no where else to go.

So they went cap in hand to the SA Government of the day for a loan and that is how it came about. The abridged version.

Now Ill say it again, the SANFL will not move their stadium that they have poured millions of dollars into to upgrade it. Regardless of how many people believe it's passed it's used by date.

 

[relapse]

Ahh, ive been trying to avoid putting one down, as itd be somewhat hypocritical of me.

To be honest, i simply want more information in order to form an educated opinion. For all i know the stadium could actually be the best option... ill admit to being sceptical though.

Just as food for thought though, and keeping in mind im not presenting this as anything definitive, id also like to see the potential benefits of investing that money into improving our states IT sector, or our education system as an alternative. Is a new expensive stadium the most pressing need for this state?

I think most of us here would be happy if it was at least put on the agenda for at least a feasibility study. I am sure that noone here would want it built if it wasnt going to be economically viable.

 

[relapse]

But it's not our stadium. We are mere tenants.

That is true, but since you are arguing for the status quo to be maintained I am interested in your opinion as a crows supporter about how the club faces those issues in the future. Seriously the SANFL should be thinking of this also, but the problem is that the 2 AFL sides never seem to be the main priority of the SANFL as long as the money is coming in they dont seem to care.

 

[relapse]

On our own terms bucko, not the way it happened.

Once Ross Oakley took over the reigns the SANFL were never going to join unless they had to. It has been speculated that Basheer hated the fact that Oakley held an opinon that the SANFL wasnt in the same class as the then VFL and didnt hold the SANFL up on pedestal. Basheer believed that the VFL should have been chasing them and courting them to join and not vice versa.

 

[Woodpecker Warrior]

That is true, but since you are arguing for the status quo to be maintained I am interested in your opinion as a crows supporter about how the club faces those issues in the future. Seriously the SANFL should be thinking of this also, but the problem is that the 2 AFL sides never seem to be the main priority of the SANFL as long as the money is coming in they dont seem to care.

The SANFL could not fund a new stadium without the assistance of the SA government. It could contribute 30-40% of costs associated with a new stadium via the sale of Football Park land , which leaves 60-70% of funds (360 Mil - 420 Mil) to come from other investors most likely SA Gov.
If you look at the investment that the SANFL has put into Football Park to cater for the needs of the two AFL clubs and their supporters since the inception of the AFL , I think you can safely say that the Crows and Power are their number one prority.
Other than transport issues of arriving and leaving, the stadium is fine for watching football.
I would love to see a new stadium in Adelaide CBD however you should lobby the SA government as they are the only feasible investor that could initiate the construction of the stadium.

In regards to major infrastructue required in this city the number one priority for the economy is an efficient North- South road and rail corrridor. This is what the government(s) should concentrate on in the next 1- 6 years

 

[relapse]

This is my point.

The powers that be (SANFL, AFL, State and Federal Governments, and *cringe* Adelaide City Council) should get together and at least commit to looking at it further, instead of continuing to throw money at a problem that isn't getting any better.

A hint of foresight instead of taking the quick and easy way out.

 

[Crow-mo]

I didnt say it was random, but I am trying to say that you cant supply any definitive evidence to substantiate it and that surveys and analysing similar situations around the world will provide a good basis, but many not accuratly predict the success or lack of success of a new stadium. There will always be a degree of uncertainty to it so there will always be an element of risk to it. Noone could come out and provide proof that would guarantee it's success.

You are the one trying to take the "facts" route regarding the posters beliefs of the possible success of it, so I am just highlighting that you can hypothetically keep raising the bar regarding the proof because no firm proof can be give to substantiate that it would be successful, so it is pointless if you are just going to take the continual provide proof route.

put another way, as you have obviously conceded there is nothign resembling an even vague business case, so you're trying the tactic of massive irresponsibility by trying to pretend it's a crapshoot.

no developments go through on that basis, so stop trying to steer things to the nobody knows side. because I can GUARANTEE you, that unless you can demonstrate some sort of predictable, justifyable economic payoff NO ONE is going to lend you the money!!!

no one. FFS

but this is going around in circles

 

[Crow-mo]

Clearly Crowmo is one of these grey haired oldies who hate change and is a member of the "minority" holding back the states development.

clearly you're one these 12 year old kids who've never had a proper job, and doesn't know what it's like to have to face up to the adult world of economic responsibility. or is that you just expect others to give you what you want?

i wonder how far away I am?

 

[Brenton Davy]

It's been mentioned before but Ill say it again. It was built because of a major rift between the SACA and the SANFL about being dictated to.
It was the home for the SANFL until the SACA thought they could stand over their tenants because they had no where else to go.

So they went cap in hand to the SA Government of the day for a loan and that is how it came about. The abridged version.

Now Ill say it again, the SANFL will not move their stadium that they have poured millions of dollars into to upgrade it. Regardless of how many people believe it's passed it's used by date.

Reality is that the SANFL was forced to West lakes as a result of government pressure from the Dunstan Govt who were frantically promoting the (then) new West Lakes development which was full of controversy from Day 1. The Liberal opposition of the day was pushing for the new stadium to be constructed at the then disused Islington rail yards where it had transport infrastructure already in place (rail) and relatively stable earth, as opposed to landfilled swamp.

The decision to put the stadium at West Lakes was purely a political one designed to promote the new development as opposed to the sensible one which would have been Islington. As a result we got what we got.

By the same token, a light rail system to and from West lakes would help with a large proportion of the problem. The parking problems would be largely sorted with decent public transport to and from the ground. This might be largely hypothetical because I cant see any of that being implemented in the near future.

 

[Crow-mo]

Thanks for that.

So, between 2001 and 2012, we will have spent $150+ million on AAMI and nobody bats an eyelid over cost, yet it's apparently a ridiculous notion to suggest we can fund a $400 million inner city stadium at some stage?
Yes, it's currently a pipedream, especially given that we've already gone and pumped so much into Waverly AAMI, but the way some people carry on over here, you'd think we were an impoverished city. There aren't a hell of a lot of cities in the world in a better position to be undertaking a project like this than ours.
I'm not claiming to be an expert on Adelaide's economy, but there's a ridiculous amount of pessimism on this board.

fair point. but a dollar is not worth the same amount in 2012 as it is 2001. when you discount for the time value of money, you cannot just add all the cashflows together.

also there is no basis for the 400million price tag it could easily be a great deal more than that. further the actual financing of construction, is going to add a great deal to the cost. say it takes 4 - 5 years to construct (could take a good deal longer) then you have to pay interest on that loan, while the asset is not income producing. how long you plan it to take, and how long it does can be very difficult to predict. so you need a big amount of margin built in, which again might be the sort of thing to push the costs way out, and be hard to fund.

there is very little way of making a rational business case to an unbiased panel. which is why there is a little point in worrying about it, it will not happen, it is not a good idea, and it cannot and will not be justified.

 

[Crow-mo]

So what. See you don't even care about the city. Well done, I win.




Not mine. I have already said I have a job. So I have as much a right to say what its spent on as you. 75m is being spent at AO, most of it being provided by the Government. Adelaide Oval is used by alot less people then AAMI. Why not have a whinge about that too?




HAHA. Well thats just the thing. Adelaide hasn't had anything to be exited about in YEARS. Why when we finally took the giant leap to aerobridges at our Airport it made the news and thousands of people inspected our 'first class' airport. People crave for new things, they love it. Thats why Hitler went on massive public building schemes.



No your just opposing a proposal that most people want, and that what I am proposing wouldn't be built for tens of years.





Real good . Well go have a look at a statistics book for SA. Net Migration loss. Also SA is classified as a regional zone. Meaning its a lot easier to get into. Yet our international immigration is below par (but increasing ). Population growth at 1% and Economic Growth below par.

Got any plans to try an attract people to this state. Go on. Try me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

[Crow-mo]

An interesting philosophy, im not going to get into the merits of spending vs saving with you but i will say this... If we were determined to undertake spending on a big project, it still does not mean it has to be a stadium.

and that is why not every opinion is created equal.

that is precisely the point. a small number of bias members of a self interested group decide this is the only outcome?

 

[Crow-mo]

FACT: Three of our draftees, when selected by the Crows this year, said they were happy to come to Adelaide as they heard it was "nice, like a big country town."

how is that a fact? or more to the point when did the sincerity of a new draftee's public statements become reliable? when convenient?

FACT: Important, major cities are always evolving and improving. If you stop change, a city dies.

fact: that is a platitude, not a fact.

I got your gold rain right here, bucko.

Yes, we've all seen a bunch of journalists do lazy reporting and quote pretty much the same two studies questioning the value of stadiums, one of which can be found in online (interesting reading - The Stadium Gambit and Local Economic Development).

not sure what the currency is for your gold rain, but where did anyone say what studies were referred to? is that gold rain or the colour of straw?

in truth the comment did not make reference or distinctions to whether the studies were even in the public eye. the comment is that there are an increasing number of studies that local municipalities (not sure where your golden compass came down with 'same two studies', 'lazy reporting' etc) are relying upon when making real decisions about the economic worth. this is a statement reflecting the new reality, that teams are finding it hard to justify their cases, because of information being used in rebuttal. be interested to know how you divine what the nature and source of this information is, whether it is public or private commission, and what the quality of it's analysis is. merely a statement that they are using it, not an opportunity to try and pretend that everyone is using 2 apochryphal studies.

Of course, economics is a faux science

really? what were you saying about lazy quotes

like psychiatry, and you can squeeze numbers to forecast a number of different things.
And you're not comparing apples to apples in these cases, as ALL of these studies focus on a city getting a sporting franchise and building a major new sports stadium to house them. We are discussing revitalizing a dead downtown by shifting the city's number one asset (the Crows) there.

see above. you need to stop making convenient assumptions here. Gennaro is talking about studies being used in assessing the economics of a new stadium in a town that already has a team and a stadium. Further you are well aware, despite a suspicious absence from your reasoning, that the reason these teams petition for a new stadium is that they are unable to maximise their revenue in the old stadium because of a lack of super boxes etc.

And if you want to read an economist who actually has something interesting to say about urban regeneration, you should read Richard Florida.

is this faux scientist richard florida?

 

[Crow-mo]

The SANFL could not fund a new stadium without the assistance of the SA government. It could contribute 30-40% of costs associated with a new stadium via the sale of Football Park land , which leaves 60-70% of funds (360 Mil - 420 Mil) to come from other investors most likely SA Gov.
If you look at the investment that the SANFL has put into Football Park to cater for the needs of the two AFL clubs and their supporters since the inception of the AFL , I think you can safely say that the Crows and Power are their number one prority.
Other than transport issues of arriving and leaving, the stadium is fine for watching football.
I would love to see a new stadium in Adelaide CBD however you should lobby the SA government as they are the only feasible investor that could initiate the construction of the stadium.

In regards to major infrastructue required in this city the number one priority for the economy is an efficient North- South road and rail corrridor. This is what the government(s) should concentrate on in the next 1- 6 years

this is spot on.

if you want a new stadium, lobby the state government. try and convince them it makes sense, if it does you might get lucky.

if that doesn't work stand as a single policy independent at the next election. but mind you, be prepared for some real scrutiny along the way.

 

[Johnny Utah #9]

Once Ross Oakley took over the reigns the SANFL were never going to join unless they had to. It has been speculated that Basheer hated the fact that Oakley held an opinon that the SANFL wasnt in the same class as the then VFL and didnt hold the SANFL up on pedestal. Basheer believed that the VFL should have been chasing them and courting them to join and not vice versa.

Spot on. For a long, long time the SANFL held a view that they were the equal or better of the VFL. This way shown by their attitude of "why do we need a team in the VFL?". It was only when Port put them in a awkward situation by wanting to jump ship that they were forced to act and the Adelaide Crows were literally conceived overnight. The SANFL are only interested in THEIR best interests and NOT the games or the supporters.

Adelaide is intrisically a very conservative city. I must stress that this is not always a bad thing. The Adelaide Oval is fantastic and retains a charm that has been lost on once similar grounds such as the SCG (eg: the hill, old scoreboard etc).

Sadly this conservatism holds the city back in many areas and many locals do not think anything wrong of it, whereas outsiders just find it confusing and humourous.

Some examples to consider:

* Adelaide Airport - old & new. Any other city of a similar size would have rid itself of an outdated old airport such as the one here in the 1980's not the mid-2000's. Finally when the new airport is built the construction is screwed up and once open it is held up as some kind of world class masterpiece! I agree that it is a good airport, but it was built without any foresight and is already at capacity. Imagine what it will be like once more international flights start coming in?

* Heysen Tunnels: Again, lauded as some kind of engineering feat of brilliance when really the rest of the world has been doing stuff like this for 50 years. Should have been built 30 years ago.

* Tram Line: To think a public infrastructure project of $31m could cause a public rally to Parliament is laughable. $31m is chicken feed in terms of a state budget. Too many people here are still bedazzled by the figure of $1million dollars. The letters written to the Advertiser summed it all up "Why are we spending $31m on a tramline, shouldn't we be spending that on hospitals?".....couple of months later the $1.7 billion Marj hospital is announced yet the same conservatives write in "Geez, $1.7bn, way too much money, can't we just fix the old one?". Seriously, Seinfeld couldn't come up with stuff this funny.

* One Way Freeway: Say no more!

* Vic Park Grandstand: The place is a dump and falling down yet the council thinks the place is fine. Could be a horse racing and car racing showpiece. Imagine twilight races every fortnight in the summer on a Friday night...would be awesome!

These examples amongst others showcase Adelaide as a ultra-conservative "do nothing" place to do business. If you run an interstate or overseas corporation and were thinking of getting something done in Adelaide, you would seriously wonder how effective the place is when a 1.5km tram line extension and a new (much needed) grandstand are so controversial people march in the streets in protest!!