Current Abduction of 4yo Blowholes Shacks WA *Terence Kelly Convicted

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Dogs_R_Us said:
A four year old doesn’t wear nappies. They can almost dress themselves at that age. He might have bought them but my four year old niece would reject them totally.

A four year old doesn’t have the knowledge or the imagination to feed the fears you would have at 40.

Cleo might have been missing her mother terribly and feeling totally bewildered but unless he was really horrible to her, shouted, manhandled her, or worse, she wouldn’t have been in fear. After eighteen days, that fear if it existed should have been very obvious to the rescuers, to the parents and hospital staff. Every photo has shown her calm and smiling.

I know it sounds like I’m defending TK but I suspect he’s not your usual kind of offender.
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I find this so offensive and ignorant.

I have PTSD. I've spent lots of time with lots of people with PTSD.

From five to 8 I was molested by a relative and each visit I came away smiling. Told everyone I had a great time. Never said a word to anyone else. Never refused to go back there.

It wasn't until years later and another victim came forward that the truth came out. And I only admitted it once he had.

And the worst bit for me was not the abuse, it was wanting to go home to my mother and him refusing. That deprivation of freedom was excruciating.

It is not at all unusual for trauma victims to appear "fine" immediately after, even years after.

I would love to think she was okay being kept alone in a locked room by a stranger for 18 days with no contact with her parents but my experience tells me otherwise.

And her parents have talked about how she has changed "at her core", has a fear of locked doors, has suffered nightmares, hasn't talked much about it and appears to have "forgotten" much of it.

I remain hopeful that because she is so young and has a loving supportive family and has access to professional help she will make a full recovery.

But to suggest it wasn't traumatic because he was a harmless eccentric who took good care of her is so dismissive of her experience and the absolute nightmare her parents suffered. Those parents will likely need long term supports.

And plenty of 4 year of olds wear nappies to bed at night. It's very normal. A GP won't look at investigating night wetting until a child is over 7.

Kids Health Information : Bedwetting

www.rch.org.au www.rch.org.au
 
I cannot believe some of the comments.

We have no idea what happened in those 18 days. Even her own parents say she hasn't told them everything.

Just because she was sent home quickly from the hospital doesn't mean she's all good, look she's smiling! As if they are going to disclose personal details to the media.

Do people understand that abuse doesn't always leave evidence? He may not have ever touched her, but could still commit an act against her.

I'm aware my own experiences can cloud my view. But it would be so extraordinarily rare for something untoward not to have happened during this time.

I'm hopeful that because this whole case has been so extraordinarily rare that nothing like that did happen.

But even if he was kind and caring, it's still an awful experience for a 4 year old and her parents.

I'm not suggesting it's doom and gloom. They all might be just dandy in a week or a month or a year, but it doesn't take away from the terrible crime he is alleged to have committed.

I need to take a step back from this thread.
 
Dogs_R_Us said:
Every photo has shown her calm and smiling.
Click to expand...
Maybe any photos or video of her, or that were about to be taken of her, where she was not calm or smiling, were either never taken (because she was not calm and smiling), or were taken and never published, either at the request of the parents, Police, health services, advisors/agents to/for the parents, or as photographer, or media editorial decisions.

As another poster in here pointed out tonight with their horrific experiences as a child, behind the smiles (in photos or out of photos), there can be a lot more going on than meets the eye.

Things aren't always as simple as some body language experts like to make you think. Particularly when it comes to infants and young children, abuse, and highly unusual events.
 

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deanc said:
I'm often bemused/confused by those who like to portray the extremes in online discussions, objectives are numerous and often unclear, to me anyway.
If you strip away the emotional narratives and related speculation, what we know or are at least can be reasonably certain of is:

A. With the exception of ransom motives, any child adducted/kidnapped and missing for a period of more than a week, the probability of them being discovered/rescued 'relatively unharmed' is extremely rare..!

B. Relatively unharmed, firstly as the hospital did not find any evidence that CS had been physically abused or even restrained in any manner during her captivity. Relatively unharmed, secondly, while not ignoring CS's current signs of trauma, 'as this stage' psychologically CS appears to have little comprehension of her experience, however this will not always be the case.

C. While TK's criminal commission was abhorrent, inconceivable, unforgivable - fortunately for CS his actions (at least for 18 days) were apparently not to harm her. While we do not know for certain what took place during her captivity and will probably never know - the authorities, related experts, her parents and even the media have not even suggested there was any form of abuse that occurred.

D. Whether people like it or not, TK's defense will argue that CS was placed in a misconstrued environment of care, not danger..!
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Yes, all this leads me to wonder what he intended to do with her in the long run. People seem to assume that he was keeping her as a "living doll" to add to his collection, weird, maybe even a bit simple, but not evil. There was no way he could have pretended she was his child/sibling even if she was kept out of sight for years.

Did he intend to set her free?

Did he intend to sell her?
 
Lady O said:
this leads me to wonder what he intended to do with her in the long run.
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What he intended to do, and what he might have done, or risked happening to her had the kidnapping gone on for much longer, let alone years, might well be completely different things.

IMO, he needs to be punished based on the worst things that could have happened to her if he hadn't been detected, arrested, and she was wasn't safely released after 18 days.
 
firstly I am going to preempt this comment by saying by no means am I inferring there was no harm done. Clearly there was.

Is there a chance that TK's mental age is that of a chlid himself and he just wanted a little 'doll' or friend to play with and in his mind he was never going to 'hurt her'? I haven't actually heard anything about his mental capacity, I mean clearly, he is a nut job, but clinically, does he actually have the mental capacity of anything close to an adult?
 
Flash of power said:
I haven't actually heard anything about his mental capacity, I mean clearly, he is a nut job, but clinically, does he actually have the mental capacity of anything close to an adult?
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So what?

That didn't help convicted murderer Martin Bryant much when it came to sentencing.

en.wikipedia.org

Martin Bryant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Psychological and psychiatric assessments​

Descriptions of Bryant's behaviour as an adolescent show that he continued to be disturbed and outlined the possibility of an intellectual disability. When leaving school in 1983, he was assessed for a disability pension by a psychiatrist who wrote: "Cannot read or write. Does a bit of gardening and watches TV ... Only his parents' efforts prevent further deterioration. Could be schizophrenic and parents face a bleak future with him."Bryant received a disability pension, though he also worked as a handyman and gardener. In an examination after the massacre, forensic psychiatrist Ian Joblin found Bryant to be borderline mentally disabled with an I.Q. of 66, equivalent to an 11-year-old.

While awaiting trial, Bryant was examined by court-appointed psychiatrist Ian Sale, who was of the opinion that Bryant "could be regarded as having shown a mixture of conduct disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity and a condition known as Asperger syndrome". Psychiatrist Paul Mullen, hired at the request of Bryant's legal counsel, found that Bryant was socially and intellectually impaired. Furthermore, finding that he did not display signs of schizophrenia or a mood disorder, Mullen concluded, "Though Mr Bryant was clearly a distressed and disturbed young man, he was not mentally ill." Bryant was eventually diagnosed with Asperger syndrome while incarcerated at Risdon Prison.
 
Dogs_R_Us said:
Every photo has shown her calm and smiling.
Click to expand...

She was scared stiff, pale and nervous, she couldn't say her name until the police asked for the third time and she began to understand she was safely getting out of there.

The neighbours had heard her crying over those 18 days.
 
BFew said:
So what?

That didn't help convicted murderer Martin Bryant much when it came to sentencing.

en.wikipedia.org

Martin Bryant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Psychological and psychiatric assessments​

Descriptions of Bryant's behaviour as an adolescent show that he continued to be disturbed and outlined the possibility of an intellectual disability. When leaving school in 1983, he was assessed for a disability pension by a psychiatrist who wrote: "Cannot read or write. Does a bit of gardening and watches TV ... Only his parents' efforts prevent further deterioration. Could be schizophrenic and parents face a bleak future with him."Bryant received a disability pension, though he also worked as a handyman and gardener. In an examination after the massacre, forensic psychiatrist Ian Joblin found Bryant to be borderline mentally disabled with an I.Q. of 66, equivalent to an 11-year-old.

While awaiting trial, Bryant was examined by court-appointed psychiatrist Ian Sale, who was of the opinion that Bryant "could be regarded as having shown a mixture of conduct disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity and a condition known as Asperger syndrome". Psychiatrist Paul Mullen, hired at the request of Bryant's legal counsel, found that Bryant was socially and intellectually impaired. Furthermore, finding that he did not display signs of schizophrenia or a mood disorder, Mullen concluded, "Though Mr Bryant was clearly a distressed and disturbed young man, he was not mentally ill." Bryant was eventually diagnosed with Asperger syndrome while incarcerated at Risdon Prison.
Click to expand...
So what?? I wasn't referring to sentencing, I was simply trying to gauge his mental capacity to try and understand his motives, and his potential actions once he abducted her.. We can only thank whatever god we believe in that he didn't let loose with a semi-automatic weapon at the camp site like Bryant did.
 
Awakening said:
I find this so offensive and ignorant.

I have PTSD. I've spent lots of time with lots of people with PTSD.

From five to 8 I was molested by a relative and each visit I came away smiling. Told everyone I had a great time. Never said a word to anyone else. Never refused to go back there.

It wasn't until years later and another victim came forward that the truth came out. And I only admitted it once he had.

And the worst bit for me was not the abuse, it was wanting to go home to my mother and him refusing. That deprivation of freedom was excruciating.

It is not at all unusual for trauma victims to appear "fine" immediately after, even years after.

I would love to think she was okay being kept alone in a locked room by a stranger for 18 days with no contact with her parents but my experience tells me otherwise.

And her parents have talked about how she has changed "at her core", has a fear of locked doors, has suffered nightmares, hasn't talked much about it and appears to have "forgotten" much of it.

I remain hopeful that because she is so young and has a loving supportive family and has access to professional help she will make a full recovery.

But to suggest it wasn't traumatic because he was a harmless eccentric who took good care of her is so dismissive of her experience and the absolute nightmare her parents suffered. Those parents will likely need long term supports.

And plenty of 4 year of olds wear nappies to bed at night. It's very normal. A GP won't look at investigating night wetting until a child is over 7.

Kids Health Information : Bedwetting

www.rch.org.au www.rch.org.au
Click to expand...
I'm really sorry you had such a horrible experience and want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and insight. I agree with your post.
....I know of some one who as a child & young teenager stayed at their fathers home with his new family. The child appeared to love going there. Now 20 years later we find out that although they had lots of good times there, the father was physically and verbally abusive to all the children and the step mother and that it was a nightmare most times. This child always came back smiling and telling tales of all the fun they had and couldn't wait to go back there. You would never have guessed.
 
BFew said:
Maybe any photos or video of her, or that were about to be taken of her, where she was not calm or smiling, were either never taken (because she was not calm and smiling), or were taken and never published, either at the request of the parents, Police, health services, advisors/agents to/for the parents, or as photographer, or media editorial decisions.

As another poster in here pointed out tonight with their horrific experiences as a child, behind the smiles (in photos or out of photos), there can be a lot more going on than meets the eye.

Things aren't always as simple as some body language experts like to make you think. Particularly when it comes to infants and young children, abuse, and highly unusual events.
Click to expand...
Her mother said she loves seeing posters and pictures of herself around the town and for people to recognise her and say hello.
 
Kurve said:
She was scared stiff, pale and nervous, she couldn't say her name until the police asked for the third time and she began to understand she was safely getting out of there.

The neighbours had heard her crying over those 18 days.
Click to expand...
Probably when she was left alone. I never said she was happy to be there.
Why didn’t the neighbours do/say anything? If they really did hear her.
 
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Dogs_R_Us said:
Probably when she was left alone. I never said she was happy to be there.
Why didn’t the neighbours do/say anything? If they really did hear her.
Click to expand...

Even if that was true, we might call that a form of stockholm syndrome which often goes hand in hand with PTSD and manifests in the kind of behaviour that Cleo's mother has described. Victims of 'grooming' are more susceptible to stockholm syndrome. Kelly told Cleo her parents couldn't take care of her any more because her sister was sick. That's grooming.

While there's going to be room to take into account the sad circumstances of Kelly's life and the difficulties he's had, the days are gone where we can dismiss or trivialise the real harms done to children in abusive situations.
 

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Flash of power said:
So what?? I wasn't referring to sentencing, I was simply trying to gauge his mental capacity to try and understand his motives, and his potential actions once he abducted her.. We can only thank whatever god we believe in that he didn't let loose with a semi-automatic weapon at the camp site like Bryant did.
Click to expand...
Yes, a rather blunt reply by Bfew to your genuine query and I'm not sure referencing MB's horrific mass shooting is in anyway relevant here.

TK's psychological profile which may or not explain his criminal actions is critical as motive is often a key factor in determining sentencing, although this is not always the case and there are many examples regarding TK's commission of this crime which do not support his mental inability to defend his actions.
I also find it interesting the media has not really broached this subject, while they have provided an overview of his challenging upbringing and his obsession with dolls, perhaps authorities have requested they not speculate on TK's mental health..?

In regards to the forthcoming sentencing hearing refer a basic overview here.
Sentencing Hearing in WA | Kingdom Legal | Criminal Lawyers Perth

Additionally, specifically related to this case given it's high profile, I suggest it's conceivable the actual sentencing term/conditions will already be negotiated by both parties and presented to the judge for his/her consideration prior to the hearing.
I also suggest some should prepare themselves for a sentencing outcome that, for a number of reasons, may not be the maximum imposed. The media's silence in speculating this is a little odd, but again maybe this is at the request of the authorities...
 
Kurve said:
I don't recall ever hearing Rob Wilde's name over the years of closely following the Claremont murders case.
Click to expand...
Well, he apparently solved it.
amp.watoday.com.au

Cop who found Cleo, solved Claremont case and caught bikie sniper honoured

Detective Superintendent Rod Wilde has become a national hero in the Australia Day honours.
amp.watoday.com.au amp.watoday.com.au

Having actually worked on macro and been at cold case when BE was identified, I can categorically say that Wilde had very little to do with it.
 
Flash of power said:
Remember Channel 7 mistakenly reporting an indigenous guy as the suspect when Kelly was arrested and showed photos of him across their networks, it seems he has won a case against them and 7 have had to pay out, I hope he got a massive pay day :)
Click to expand...
A rare small victory also for 'Joe Public', given how much nonsense the media are not held accountable for these days - great outcome!
.....................................................................................
Seven West Media pays out man wrongfully accused of Cleo Smith abduction

Seven West Media has been forced to pay out the man it wrongfully identified in news reports as Cleo Smith’s abductor.
Terrance Flowers, who goes by his mother’s last name of Kelly on Facebook, became the subject of a case of mistaken identity when the Kerry Stokes-owned media conglomerate incorrectly identified him as Cleo’s abductor Terence Kelly.

The 27-year-old Nyamal man lives in Karratha, whereas Kelly, who is in prison after pleading guilty to kidnapping Cleo, is 36 and lived in Carnarvon.
Mr. Flowers said the ordeal had left him fearful to leave his home alone, having been approached by people in the street who thought he was the accused, asking him what his intentions were for Cleo and whether he was planning to kill her.
He filed a lawsuit against Seven West Media, and on Wednesday the almost four-month ordeal was settled in a Perth court, leaving the innocent man “very relieved”.

Mr. Flowers appeared via video link from his hometown of Karratha and after the proceedings told WAtoday he was glad the situation was over.
"I’m glad that it’s all over and it was settled and now just looking forward to moving on with my life and spending time with my six-month-old little boy." he said.
The matter was all over within minutes as both parties had agreed to a settlement deal ahead of time. Solicitor Stewart O’Connell told WAtoday both his client and the law firm were "happy" with the settlement, which would remain confidential.

Supreme Court of WA Chief Justice Peter Quinlan entered his judgment in open court in favour of Mr. Terrance’s defamation claim against Channel Seven, a statement from the solicitors read. "The judgment was entered pursuant to consent orders agreed to by the parties," it read.
"The judge noted that the proceedings had otherwise settled on confidential terms. The judge congratulated the parties on reaching a resolution."
Mr. Flowers’ lawyers requested the privacy of Mr Flowers and his family be respected.
........................................................................................
 
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Lady O said:
Hmmm, maybe he wasn't just a simple man who liked collecting dolls?
Click to expand...

There are indications he was quite sophisticated in the way he crawled over facebook groups and following particular pages that we might take lessons from at some point regards online safety. imo.
 
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