Opinion Academies and Father - Son draft changes

[frizzle]

No team should have their own academy. Salary cap, player list numbers & drafts need to be ran as the same rules for every single club.
The academies should be ran by the AFL & funded by the AFL, with participants going into the draft like every other player around Australia.
The academies are a way to gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the competition just like the COLA is. If the fact that GWS & Gold Coast can't have father son selections because they are a young club then either dump father/son selections altogether or find a compromise for those 2 clubs. If the AFL average is 2 father sons to most clubs every 8 years then give them a free draft hit somewhere else every 4 years to compensate. Sydney & Brisbane already have father son selections, they don't need another leg up.

 

[loki04]

I think the points system will be too harsh with the real high end kids. Imagine giving up your entire draft roster for the next top 3 rated FS.
Could cripple a club if they get it wrong, 1 player does not out way 5.

 

[Bay Pie]

No team should have their own academy. Salary cap, player list numbers & drafts need to be ran as the same rules for every single club.
The academies should be ran by the AFL & funded by the AFL, with participants going into the draft like every other player around Australia.
The academies are a way to gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the competition just like the COLA is. If the fact that GWS & Gold Coast can't have father son selections because they are a young club then either dump father/son selections altogether or find a compromise for those 2 clubs. If the AFL average is 2 father sons to most clubs every 8 years then give them a free draft hit somewhere else every 4 years to compensate. Sydney & Brisbane already have father son selections, they don't need another leg up.

Agree entirely.
In addition kids from VIC, SA and WA don't have the option of staying where they currently live because they have some ability. They go where they are selected. Academy kids should be the same. If the academy is run well, it will attract talent, not because the kid has a 'promise' to remain in his current state.

AFL should fund and run the academies.

 

[Collingwood42]

I think the new rules make it a lot more fair. It wouldn't have made much of a difference in us recruiting Moore, but would have stopped Sydney getting Heeney massively under...

Pick 5 (Bulldogs pick)= 1878 points
1878 - 15% (father/son discount)
= 1596

Pick 8 (Pies first pick)= 1551
1596 - 1551
= 45

Pick 28 (Pies 2nd pick)= 677
45 - 677= 638 (owed to Collingwood)

638= pick 30

So pick 8+28 for Moore and 30 - sounds fair, (after free trade is done, our picks become 9+30 for Moore and 32).

 

[Knightmare]

I'm increasingly just leaning towards the academies staying, and father son picks staying with father son selections to also apply to those clubs with their academies. The one thing I would for fairness take away from those clubs with the academies is their normal national and rookie draft selections, and instead if they want picks in the normal national and rookie draft pools they can enter the draft after all other clubs have concluded their involvement in the drafts.

The more years they get into these kids in their programs the better the kids coming through will be and that will only become more obvious as the years pass, so these clubs could still benefit from the system compared to the other clubs in the competition and importantly for the AFL, the AFL can still achieve their objective of developing the talent from these states and getting these kids to remain in their home states which will attract more kids to these programs and playing AFL.

The new bidding system under this system wouldn't exist under this system, but if a club was to not take one of their academy kids (pre-selected before the national draft) then they would be free for all, for all other clubs to have a shot at. And same system with the rookie draft.

The bonus I see with this system is that if clubs identify talent that others don't rate then regardless of whether they are from the academy system or not, that talent won't get overlooked.

--
Regarding the new mathematical system with the bidding. I wouldn't personally implement it as frankly for the AFL's objectives it doesn't work as well as my proposed system would, but none the less I'm not going to kick and scream about the outcome either as it does create the element of fairness that was lacking with the previous system.

 

[Collingwood42]

I think the points system will be too harsh with the real high end kids. Imagine giving up your entire draft roster for the next top 3 rated FS.
Could cripple a club if they get it wrong, 1 player does not out way 5.

You just have to work it out like a trade of draft picks.
For example on the Sydney/Heeney pick, are picks 2, 70, 88, 89 better than picks 18, 37, 38??

 

[Horaceg]

I don't understand why each club can't have their own academy where all clubs can develop young players. Father son prospects could enter the club academy if they decided and journey into the system that way. Each club could have first choice on one or two and the rest become fair game to any other club. They cold use a zone system and/or anyone with substantial ties to the Club. Someone like Weideman with a huge family history at Collingwood but doesn't qualify under F&S in 2015. . Sydney and the Interstate Clubs can still develop local talent, that stays and everyone only has a limited right to the best of the talent they develop. The draft stays the way it is but there are no guarantees for talent if you don't jump early.

Just a thought

 

[TradeDraft]

I don't understand why each club can't have their own academy where all clubs can develop young players. Father son prospects could enter the club academy if they decided and journey into the system that way. Each club could have first choice on one or two and the rest become fair game to any other club. They cold use a zone system and/or anyone with substantial ties to the Club. Someone like Weideman with a huge family history at Collingwood but doesn't qualify under F&S in 2015. . Sydney and the Interstate Clubs can still develop local talent, that stays and everyone only has a limited right to the best of the talent they develop. The draft stays the way it is but there are no guarantees for talent if you don't jump early.

Just a thought

Doubt that would happen but I would like to see something like that with the VFL Listed Players

 

[jackcass]

I think the academies should be AFL funded

Technically they are. All 4 clubs heavily subsidized by the AFL so by extension Collingwood are contributing to the cost.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

The academy system is completely unfair only to the extent that it is exclusive to certain clubs. All it does is give interstate clubs more access to more players.

The go home disadvantage to interstate clubs is mostly a myth anyway. Yes some players want to go play in their home state, but all clubs are subject to the same salary cap pressures. For every one player (that is good enough to get a choice) that goes interstate due to the go home factor, ten more (that are good enough to choose) pick their clubs because of the money they are paid or due to the club having superior facilities. The go home factor can also be an advantage for clubs in states with less recruiting competition. When Beams decided he wanted to live in QL, Brisbane had a 50% chance of getting him. When a Vic player decides to go the other way, any particular Vic club has only a 10% chance of recruiting him, which offsets the advantage of being based in a more talent rich state. In any case, every one player that moves leaves salary cap room for any one of ten more players to slot into. The system is pretty fair as it is. Absolutely no need to deliberately make it unfair by irrationally pandering to a perceived minority interest.

 

[jackcass]

Not much, wasn't it pick 5 that nominated him and 8 used on him?

Under the system as it stood last draft, once Doggies had bid pick 5 and the Pies matched it, there was no reason for teams 1-4 making a bid so we'll never know if they would have. Under the proposed system they'd have every reason to bid if they think the kid is worth it as it'll increase the cost and may well push the F/S out of it. For example the Moore situation may have been more like this:

Doggies bid p5, Pies match with p8.
Lions bid p4, Pies match with p8 and 5th round pick.
Giants bid p3, Pies match with p8 and 4th round pick.
Melb bid p2, Pies match with p8 and 3rd round pick.
Saints bid p1, Pies baulk at p8 and 2nd round pick, Moore goes to Saints for p1.

Don't get too caught up on my hypothetical bid and counter offer, just highlighting the changed dynamics of the bidding system.

EDIT: Please ignore the above, based on the assumption that bidding was Hawthorn to StKilda but I've been shown the error of my assumption.

 

[jackcass]

Close - Dogs put up Pick 4 for Moore and we Matched it with Pick 8 or in Offical Draft Order Pick 5 was put up and we put up Pick 9

No Doggies had pick 5 before Dees got their compo pick... StK, Melb, GWS, Lions, Dogs...

 

[Apex36]

Under the system as it stood last draft, once Doggies had bid pick 5 and the Pies matched it, there was no reason for teams 1-4 making a bid so we'll never know if they would have. Under the proposed system they'd have every reason to bid if they think the kid is worth it as it'll increase the cost and may well push the F/S out of it. For example the Moore situation may have been more like this:

Doggies bid p5, Pies match with p8.
Lions bid p4, Pies match with p8 and 5th round pick.
Giants bid p3, Pies match with p8 and 4th round pick.
Melb bid p2, Pies match with p8 and 3rd round pick.
Saints bid p1, Pies baulk at p8 and 2nd round pick, Moore goes to Saints for p1.

Don't get too caught up on my hypothetical bid and counter offer, just highlighting the changed dynamics of the bidding system.

Not sure I understand what you mean by the comment about teams 1-4? Afaik they all passed on him. Isn't each club in order given the opportunity to bid or pass until someone actually bids?

Edit: I was right, just looked up the rules:

• 2. A meeting is held on the Monday before the start of trade week where clubs can bid for the nominated players. Each club has the option to bid, in reverse ladder order, for the nominated players.

In order for the dogs to bid pick 5, picks 1-4 had to be passed on first.

 

[jackcass]

They are looking to doing it live so we would of lost our Beams pick 5 comp to snare Darcy.

F/S and Academy bidding happens before trading an draft.

 

[jackcass]

Not sure I understand what you mean by the comment about teams 1-4? Afaik they all passed on him. Isn't each club in order given the opportunity to bid or pass until someone actually bids?

Afaik it's in reverse order.

 

[Apex36]

Afaik it's in reverse order.

Reverse ladder order. As in, the team who came last and has pick 1.

 

[mike123]

Technically they are. All 4 clubs heavily subsidized by the AFL so by extension Collingwood are contributing to the cost.

I'm guessing this is why Eddie gets upset about this.

 

[jackcass]

Reverse ladder order. As in, the team who came last and has pick 1.

No worries.

 

[jackcass]

I like the F/S and Academy system and agree that the Academies should be independently run by the AFL.

My biggest issue is that Brisbane and Sydney get the preferential access to players from the Academies AND have F/S options. Even under the new system they need to get a reduced discount to 1 or the other.

 

[ksardog]

Father/son should continue as is

Swans have been established since 1982 in sydney, thats 32 years, they have plenty of chances for father/sons just like the rest of the clubs, no need for them to hav an extra leg up (even tho they are the afl's lovechild ). Same with brisbane

Football acadamies should only be allowed for GWS and gold coast, and they should be able to have them until they get their first father/sons. The same bidding system should exist as it does currently.

The acadamies should be funded by the afl.

End of story

 

[TradeDraft]

No Doggies had pick 5 before Dees got their compo pick... StK, Melb, GWS, Lions, Dogs...

Okay got ya and then we jumped ahead of the Dogs Pick in the Beams Trade

 

[Ketchup]

I like the father-son rule as it is now. Its always the good side of football seeing legendary names come through your club 20 years later, if you lucky enough to have 2 or 3 in the one year, well then thats what it is, good luck.

As for the acadamies, I think they need to change, they were originally set up because they didn't have the players for father-son rule is what I was always aware (if otherwise let me know), but now it's just a free hit at the best youngsters, it'll only get worse for the Vic and Adelaide clubs who don't have an academy once the other clubs get better at it.

 

[PTpie]

It is interesting to see the academies draw such ire from fans. As far as I know only Heeney and to a lesser degree Freeman (Brisbane Lions, 2013) are the only 2 taken from them that have been rated as talented and Freeman is a roughie at that.

I believe that the VFL, WAFL, SANFL and TAC Cup provide a much greater springboard for young players than the academies ever could. Thereby balancing out any unfairness. The NEAFL is a vastly inferior league compared to the other state leagues.

Also in the AFL pre-dominate states the junior pathways are established and streamlined. Talent is often identified and developed from U12's and sometimes even before if they are good enough. Neither of the Northern states can compete with VIC, WA or SA at junior or senior level. Development and identification for junior through to senior is also pretty average. Heck Tasmania probably has better pathways than NSW or QLD for AFL.

 

[loki04]

F/S and Academy bidding happens before trading an draft.

Re read what I wrote.

They (being the AFL) are looking to do the bidding live (at the draft).

 

[Tbone McGraw]

I am so biased towards pies but live in Syd.

In my opinion, it is now the afl not the vfl. The northern states need all the help they can get. Maybe not the Swans.

Only proviso in this is the league that should assist. Do not tax us because we are successful.