List Mgmt. Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread

[GreyCrow]

Yeah Dumont might be capable, but who in our current team is he pushing out?

Berry? Schoenberg? Pedlar when he gets on the park? One of Hately or O'Connor? Seedsman? Milera who will return from injury? Sholl?

Big old pile of yuck for a guy we'd need to give a long list clogging contract to and would play week in week out as a result. You can guarantee a 26 year old recruit will not be around for our next flag, it's a waste of time

Replacing Mackay

 

[Danger in Texas]

Yeah this is why I’m happy for others to make judgement on Dumont ahead of myself

Seems the type of player that is very bland/vanilla when watching him in isolation, but seems to do a lot of the little things well according to NM supporters (particularly defensive efforts)

I wouldn’t go near him personally, more so due to age profile, but understand my call could end up looking silly if we do get him

 

[Thetrader15]

I'd have Dumont in the team ahead of Seedsman because he has a bit of defensive effort.

That said, I'd prefer to play Hamill on the wing for 22 games next year ahead of them both.

 

[Scorpus]

What Keays/Dumont types do is
- Give the kids someone whose spot they aspire to take. Something to work towards. That's achievable. Learning to bang the door down is a tangible skill that has kids in better stead for the future. In a way, Keays's purpose is to eventually be dropped, haha
- Give the kids some protection, bigger bodies
- Show the kids how to train. How to crack in. How to run defensively. Professionalism
- Help the kids experience winning sooner.
- Help us win the midfield battle, so our forwards have a fighting chance of being able to develop with some okay supply instead of barely see the ball

I disagree with most of this for bringing in Dumont.

We already have young players in the team. By bringing in Dumont we aren't giving the kids a spot to work towards, we are taking a spot from someone already in the side. Do we currently have any players in our team that haven't earned their spot? I would argue we don't when we have a reasonable injury list.

Giving the kids protection from bigger bodies is already provided by having players like Sloane, Laird, Seedsman, Smith and others in the team. If we load up the middle with players like Dumont, the reason the kids are being protected is because they aren't in the midfield at all due to a lack of spots

Showing the kids how to train and run defensively is already a well established part of our training setup and the culture Nicks is driving. These are things our existing players are already doing and guys like Keays are setting the standard in this way already. There is no need to add another player who is mediocre on field but offers us "professionalism" off the field; that's how you end up with David Mackay playing 230 games.

As for winning games and the midfield, Dumont is not a match winner so he will make no difference to our chances there whatsoever

 

[GROTTO]

Yeah this is why I’m happy for others to make judgement on Dumont ahead of myself

Seems the type of player that is very bland/vanilla when watching him in isolation, but seems to do a lot of the little things well according to NM supporters (particularly defensive efforts)

I wouldn’t go near him personally, more so due to age profile, but understand my call could end up looking silly if we do get him

Its an opinion you have and should be respected.

Ive seen one or two on here think they are expects and get proven wrong.

No one on here is 100% right.

 

[Thetrader15]

Nothing wrong with vanilla. Duncan, Menagola, Amon, Worpel, Ebert would all probably have been considered 'vanilla'.

 

[GROTTO]

Nothing wrong with vanilla. Duncan, Menagola, Amon, Worpel, Ebert would all probably have been considered 'vanilla'.

Those kind of players if they give or try to give consistently 100% effort, can make up for their bland flavour.

 

[Scorpus]

Nothing wrong with vanilla. Duncan, Menagola, Amon, Worpel, Ebert would all probably have been considered 'vanilla'.

Mitch Duncan vanilla? Jeeeeeeeez

 

[Thetrader15]

Mitch Duncan vanilla? Jeeeeeeeez

Explosive - nope
Agility - nope
Long kick - nope
Accumulator - tick
Contested beast - nope

Great accumulator and endurance, but doesn't burst from stoppage or kick long goals on the run. No x-factor.

Vanilla, but goes to show, nothing wrong with vanilla.

 

[Scorpus]

Explosive - nope
Agility - nope
Long kick - nope
Accumulator - tick
Contested beast - nope

Great accumulator and endurance, but doesn't burst from stoppage or kick long goals on the run. No x-factor.

Vanilla, but goes to show, nothing wrong with vanilla.

Mitch Duncan has elite disposal and decision making, among the best midfielder kicks in the comp. He is not vanilla

 

[Skippos]

Nothing wrong with vanilla. Duncan, Menagola, Amon, Worpel, Ebert would all probably have been considered 'vanilla'.

Funny how (Worpel excepted - who's not vanilla, he's just shit) these 'vanilla' dudes are all more wing types than inside types. I think it's more that good outside players succeed by virtue of work rate as opposed to anything else and that isn't really a particularly visually appealing or noticeable quality. But given the dearth of good wingmen around, it's clearly something hard to find.

David Swallow? Jack Redden? Ed Curnow? Seb Ross? That's vanilla to me.

 

[Golumless]

I disagree. I love that we've finally rebuilt. And I love stacking up on youth. So I'm all for maximising that. But I don't think the correct strategy is 'trade away all players who won't be in your next premiership side, fill as many list spots with kids and pump games into them'

That's a strategy that's been done quite a bit, and rarely ended up well.

What Keays/Dumont types do is
- Give the kids someone whose spot they aspire to take. Something to work towards. That's achievable. Learning to bang the door down is a tangible skill that has kids in better stead for the future. In a way, Keays's purpose is to eventually be dropped, haha
- Give the kids some protection, bigger bodies
- Show the kids how to train. How to crack in. How to run defensively. Professionalism
- Help the kids experience winning sooner.
- Help us win the midfield battle, so our forwards have a fighting chance of being able to develop with some okay supply instead of barely see the ball

What Keays/Dumont types cost is:
- A list spot that would otherwise go to the latest ND pick we had available or a PSD/MSD type. Who usually end up being Ben Davis tier players
- Nothing to acquire
- Salary cap space in years where we struggle to fill it
- A spot in the 22 that would otherwise go to a kid who probably isn't good enough to command it yet, and would be better off learning to dominate in the 2s (and once they do, the fillers go out) instead of struggling in the 1s. And pushing a better player into the 2s to avoid the crap our current 2s found themselves in with TT getting no supply earlier in the year.

It's why I didn't like trading away Greenwood/Lyons for virtually nothing. Crouch at least net us a nice enough pick (especially for a bloke who was a net negative by virtue of his defensive running). Atkins too - a pick that offered more than he ever did. JL/Hugh could definitely play a role in the rebuild and cashing out on them netted us nothing but an extra spot to give to a kid who probably hadn't earnt it.

Of course, if Keays had cost us a 2nd or Dumont cost us Matt Crouch compensation, then I'd give it the swift and hard pass. They should never come at the expense of high quality assets. But rarely do they - if we brought in Dumont as a FA, the net tradeoff would be there'd be no space for our final pick in the draft. And when we washed him out in 2 years, probably no space for another final pick in the draft.

It's why if I was Hawthorn I'd happily cash in on Gunston, Mitchell and JOM for hopefully top 25-30 picks, but blokes like Frost, Shiels and Phillips are fine to have around - they'd net you no assets to help rebuild, but do a role in shepherding that new breed in.

The strategy to trade in mediocre players and try to force being competitive in a rebuild has never worked. It got Melbourne into the mess they found themselves in 2012, it got Carlton into the mess they found themselves in Boltons last years. It did a number to North as well. If there is one thing football has done well, it is punishes teams who try to cheat their position with trades. In a rebuild, competitiveness must be earned through your kids, and not pretending never beens offer you anything.

We have enough senior players to cover us. It would be a terrible decision to try to add to that group if they're not very good players.

The only reason you'd get Dumont is if you thought North was wasting him, and the change of scenery would push him up to a level where he could be a very good midfielder (not AA, but the band below). Similar to Keays who truly elevated his game once he came to Adelaide.

 

[CroCop]

For all those wanting to bring Lukosius home have a read of this from David King

David King's "tough love" for young Sun following "Q-crash"

“It’s time for these young kids to accept a bit of ownership."

www.sen.com.au

 

[Skippos]

The strategy to trade in mediocre players and try to force being competitive in a rebuild has never worked. It got Melbourne into the mess they found themselves in 2012, it got Carlton into the mess they found themselves in Boltons last years. It did a number to North as well. If there is one thing football has done well, it is punishes teams who try to cheat their position with trades. In a rebuild, competitiveness must be earned through your kids, and not pretending never beens offer you anything.

We have enough senior players to cover us. It would be a terrible decision to try to add to that group if they're not very good players.

The only reason you'd get Dumont is if you thought North was wasting him, and the change of scenery would push him up to a level where he could be a very good midfielder (not AA, but the band below). Similar to Keays who truly elevated his game once he came to Adelaide.

Melbourne 2012 had like one or two recycled players? They just aggressively bottomed out and drafted terribly. A bit like what I fear we're doing. Sure, they picked up the odd recycled player afterwards - Cross, Riley, Vince, Melksham, Lumumba spring to mind - but I don't think any of that hindered their list build.

Carlton 2018-19 are a special case. These players were listed across those two seasons (mainly recycled, but the odd mature age draftee): Kerridge, Lamb, Lang, Rowe, Plowman, Marchbank, O'Shea, Pickett, Phillips, Thomas, Wright, Mullett, A Silvagni, M Shaw, Lobbe, M Kennedy, Bugg, Fasolo, McGovern, Setterfield, Newman, H Goddard, M Gibbons, J Deluca

That's 25 blokes. 18-20 of them each year. Nearly half the list wasted on vanilla trash. What got them into the shit was the sheer volume of it and how rubbish they all were (and how much of their GWS recycling ended up being far less talented than they expected).

I'm talking about one bloke here. Who'd be the second recent one at our club and join Seedsman, Hinge, Hately and Frampton on our list. But the latter four all tangibly added to our team or we thought they would/could. When it's only 5-6 across a whole list, there's no risk. When it's 20-25, huge risk.

Plus, Dumont is miles better than any of the recycled talent listed above bar maybe Bernie Vince. He really isn't as bad as some people think he is.

 

[GROTTO]

For all those wanting to bring Lukosius home have a read of this from David King

David King's "tough love" for young Sun following "Q-crash"

“It’s time for these young kids to accept a bit of ownership."

www.sen.com.au

If you were Lukosius would you push hard for the Suns, when there is likely a multi year multi million dollar Crows offer next year?

 

[Mutineer]

I disagree with most of this for bringing in Dumont.

We already have young players in the team. By bringing in Dumont we aren't giving the kids a spot to work towards, we are taking a spot from someone already in the side. Do we currently have any players in our team that haven't earned their spot? I would argue we don't when we have a reasonable injury list.

Giving the kids protection from bigger bodies is already provided by having players like Sloane, Laird, Seedsman, Smith and others in the team. If we load up the middle with players like Dumont, the reason the kids are being protected is because they aren't in the midfield at all due to a lack of spots

Showing the kids how to train and run defensively is already a well established part of our training setup and the culture Nicks is driving. These are things our existing players are already doing and guys like Keays are setting the standard in this way already. There is no need to add another player who is mediocre on field but offers us "professionalism" off the field; that's how you end up with David Mackay playing 230 games.

As for winning games and the midfield, Dumont is not a match winner so he will make no difference to our chances there whatsoever

Berry will rocket past Dunont and that type, maybe even as early as next year.

 

[Crow till I die]

Nothing wrong with vanilla. Duncan, Menagola, Amon, Worpel, Ebert would all probably have been considered 'vanilla'.

Ken hinkley...as coach i mean

 

[Skippos]

Written Jackson Hately off already?

Very premature there.

Not in the slightest? I included him in the group I said we thought would tangibly add to our team?

If you're talking about the last bit (Dumont is miles better than the recycled talent listed above) - was referencing the blues/dees boys, but might not have been clear. But Dumont is miles ahead of Hately right now anyway. No doubt Hately could be better at his peak, but ironically - I reckon they're pretty similar styles of players and probably end up peaking at around the same level.

 

[Mutineer]

Very similar to Nathan Van Berlo

Nathan Van Berlo and Trent Dumont AFL Stats Comparison

Nathan Van Berlo and Trent Dumont AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[phill5158]

I really don't see the need for Dumont, not someone you'd be excited about picking. Only thing is he would be a role player and look at all premiership sides over the years and you'll see a range of role players you've probably forgotten all about. In saying that I think we have that covered and should look elsewhere such as luring Dawson home from the swans and etc...

On SM-G988B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Danger in Texas]

I really don't see the need for Dumont, not someone you'd be excited about picking. Only thing is he would be a role player and look at all premiership sides over the years and you'll see a range of role players you've probably forgotten all about. In saying that I think we have that covered and should look elsewhere such as luring Dawson home from the swans and etc...

On SM-G988B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah Dawson’s the guy I want

That said, he won’t be easy to lure

 

[phill5158]

Yeah Dawson’s the guy I want

That said, he won’t be easy to lure

Yeah exactly what we need isn't he, at 192/86 he'd be perfect to combine with Butts and knows how to get the ball averaging 20 disposals a game to go with 6 rebounds a game so instantly makes our backline stronger. But yeah would not be easy to get him out of Sydney but would be nice if we could pull it off.

On SM-G988B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[hugecannon]

Yeah Dawson’s the guy I want

That said, he won’t be easy to lure

We could always play Worrell in that role and see how he goes?

 

[Skippos]

Nathan Van Berlo and Trent Dumont AFL Stats Comparison

Nathan Van Berlo and Trent Dumont AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Dumont’s numbers come from shortened quarters. Multiply his numbers by 1.25 - then it becomes a bit clearer, he’s better than NVB ever was.

He’s no world beater, but he’s not a spud. I’d certainly prefer we concentrate resources into Dawson too, it’s just not the end of the world if we get him.

 

[Mutineer]

Dumont’s numbers come from shortened quarters. Multiply his numbers by 1.25 - then it becomes a bit clearer, he’s better than NVB ever was.

He’s no world beater, but he’s not a spud. I’d certainly prefer we concentrate resources into Dawson too, it’s just not the end of the world if we get him.

Career stats my friend at 25, I'm sure 1 year x 1.25 wouldn't make all that much difference.

I understand your Dumont's number 1 fanboi but I'd take NVB before his major injury over Dumont any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Dumont's best Brownlow return was 2 votes in 2019 (3 all up), NVB 9 votes in 2011, 17 all up by the age of 25. Trent better get a big hurry up....