AFL 360, On the Couch and SEN

[footyfan000001]

Apparently we finally copped it last night on AFL 360, On the Couch and on SEN this morning - and probably fair enough too - raising numerous alarming points - but also a few standing up for us. Did anyone manage to watch/listen to it? SEN went over all programs this morning and from what I gathered:

AFL 360/On the Couch - worried about the fact that we are mainly concentrating on contested ball when the game is changing dramatically to focus on run from half back and outside runners and we apparently have none. Robbo said we need another two Ryan Griffens. Apparently we handball too much and then turn the ball over for other teams to then feast on our mistakes with their spread and speed and we cannot catch up. Apparently in the last 18 games we average 69 points for and 117 points against which I thought was staggering!

SEN - mentioned we have 10-12 players that are knocking on retirement and are worried that our young squad won't be able to carry the load when these players move on. Said we have no forwards who look capable of scoring goals - said Gia looked the most dangerous still and that Jones and Cordy have been tried but have failed. They questioned whether Gia would go around again for another year at another club. Surely he is no chance and I thought they were harsh on Jones too. Huddo and Andy Maher did however state that they can see the direction we are going and that BMAC is a good coach and we need time. Not much in regards to BMac being another the pump.

Did I miss anything?/do you agree/disagree with their points?

 

[timtamWB]

Apparently we finally copped it last night on AFL 360, On the Couch and on SEN this morning - and probably fair enough too - raising numerous alarming points - but also a few standing up for us. Did anyone manage to watch/listen to it? SEN went over all programs this morning and from what I gathered:

AFL 360/On the Couch - worried about the fact that we are mainly concentrating on contested ball when the game is changing dramatically to focus on run from half back and outside runners and we apparently have none. Robbo said we need another two Ryan Griffens. Apparently we handball too much and then turn the ball over for other teams to then feast on our mistakes with their spread and speed and we cannot catch up. Apparently in the last 18 games we average 69 points for and 117 points against which I thought was staggering!

SEN - mentioned we have 10-12 players that are knocking on retirement and are worried that our young squad won't be able to carry the load when these players move on. Said we have no forwards who look capable of scoring goals - said Gia looked the most dangerous still and that Jones and Cordy have been tried but have failed. They questioned whether Gia would go around again for another year at another club. Surely he is no chance and I thought they were harsh on Jones too. Huddo and Andy Maher did however state that they can see the direction we are going and that BMAC is a good coach and we need time. Not much in regards to BMac being another the pump.

Did I miss anything?/do you agree/disagree with their points?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

They forgot Dickson.

Couple of articles in the Hun today pointing the finger. Full of stats proving how shit we are, but no real criticism of the direction we're taking, or of the coaching.

 

[StringyDog]

They questioned whether Gia would go around again for another year at another club.

I think this point shows just how little some of these commentators watch.

 

[krisholio14]

I thought on the whole that the consensus was you just have to suck it up and persist.

 

[footyfan000001]

Exactly what I was thinking!!

 

[dogwatch]

10-12 near retirement? Not sure where they get that. Sure we have five obvious candidates in Cross, Boyd, Murphy, Gia and Morris but if they are spread over two years that's about the league average excluding GCS and GWS.

Goodes has probably got another two years (or 5 years if he lasts as long as his brother!) and the only others close would be Minson (28) and Cooney (27, but maybe retiring early if his knee gets worse?) I'd be surprised if either Minson or Cooney retired before 2015 at the earliest.

I have no doubt that criticism is warranted but statements like that just make them look ignorant and undermine their credibility.

 

[timtamWB]

10-12 near retirement? Not sure where they get that. Sure we have five obvious candidates in Cross, Boyd, Murphy, Gia and Morris but if they are spread over two years that's about the league average excluding GCS and GWS.

Goodes has probably got another two years (or 5 years if he lasts as long as his brother!) and the only others close would be Minson (28) and Cooney (27, but maybe retiring early if his knee gets worse?) I'd be surprised if either Minson or Cooney retired before 2015 at the earliest.

I have no doubt that criticism is warranted but statements like that just make them look ignorant and undermine their credibility.

If Goodes plays like he did against Gold Coast he's not going to last 5 years!

But yes 10 retirees is obviously wrong, it just shows how none of these journalist watch the games, they just look at the result, get a feel of what's going on from the supporter base, and then go from there. They use facts like "we're reanked 18th in x" but then they make up the rest of the filler because they do not watch any of our games. I'm not saying their points are wrong, just that they literally have hardly any idea what they're talking about.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I'm not worried about the focus on contested ball. The idea that the game is changing and contested ball stats are becoming irrelevant is calling a trend the new normal. Is there a recent premier that was poor at contested footy? I do, however, think that the lack of development of virtually all of our outside midfielders is a worry. Yes, Libba, Wallis and Smith are all showing good signs, as are Hrovat and Prudden in the reserves (not to say they are only inside players). Aside from JJ and, I suppose, Dahlhaus, it's a real concern that there are no obvious fast effective ball users coming through. Grant, Howard, Pearce and Tutt should all be able to assist and yet none are coming on. As I mentioned in another thread, Sherman, Vez and Djerrkura were also brought in to assist us with our pace and ball use and all have failed. Is it a list management problem or a development problem?

It's a slight concern how many older players we are playing at the moment while still losing badly. It's definitely time one or two pulled the pin. I get the feeling too much emphasis has been placed on players 'playing the right way' and being 'ruthless people'. I'm sure Cross fits McCartney's view of how football should be played but he's done. We all like Stevens but we already thought we were overloading on inside midfielders at the time Smith was drafted. Now we've added Lower and Stevens without any inside mids dropping out.

I understand that if we drop a bunch of older players for younger players we may become even less competitive but some of the output from older players is poor. Markovic has been good for two weeks and the experiment has merit but if he doesn't work as a forward it should be curtains and I see no reason Austin and, sadly, Addison should be brought back in. We have enough players playing who won't be there in two years. We don't need more. If Cooney is as recovered as we think, does he need to be getting cheap kicks in the backline? Perhaps he isn't up to full games in the middle but, assuming Boyd needs a rest, I'd rather Boyd and Cross out and playing Wallis where he belongs - the guts.

The major concern is the points for and against and, obviously, the win/loss. That is deplorable. I noticed Roos has suggested our handball game falls apart because you need several players running forward, meaning there is a death of players behind if there is a turnover which invariably there is. You have to query whether a game plan that doesn't suit the players is being tried. More to the point, most of the players trying it have little leg speed.

The blowtorch was inevitable after the Gold Coast loss. Some, like Robbo, taste blood in the water. It's to be expected and until we win a few (we've done the competitive loss thing) the pressure will be there. At the same time, while it seems clear now that some fine tuning is required, I think a few of our young players are starting to come on. I don't advocate turfing McCartney half way through his contract because of the media. If we can't win some game in the second half of the season, however, the club will be facing a nightmare trying to sell next year to the members and I suspect he'll make way.

 

[fronkalicious]

Saw the 2 Foxtel shows (afl360 and on the couch). Rocket did say he was worried what would happen when our older blokes retired. I recall us all feeling exactly the same way about smith, West, Darcy and grant retiring. And guess what. We vaulted forward into the top 8.

Robbo was very supportive of us. He loves effort and applauded us for that. He doesn't think we're too far away. Underlining tone was that we lack runners (clearly) but that the gameplan is potentially outdated.

 

[inyourfacedunk]

They are correct about the amount of hand balling that goes on in games, but I doubt they have watched many dogs matches and have just gone on what they saw against GC.

They aren't entirely wrong, but it is all very generic. Stats and a few known names. Come up with a round about conclusion that isn't wrong, but it's also not hitting any nails on the head. Typical fluff.

 

[boydsno1]

Macca must be a good speaker because Llyod who normally bags the dogs was full of praise after having lunch with Mac.

We do have forwards coming through, In Jones & stringer. Gia won't play at another club. He has said he will go at the end of this season and i expect him to stick to that unless he improves and gets begged to stay on by the club which i don't think we will need him to despite loving him as a player.

 

[Tommycash]

Macca must be a good speaker because Llyod who normally bags the dogs was full of praise after having lunch with Mac.

We do have forwards coming through, In Jones & stringer. Gia won't play at another club. He has said he will go at the end of this season and i expect him to stick to that unless he improves and gets begged to stay on by the club which i don't think we will need him to despite loving him as a player.

The only people who seem to have no confidence in Macca are those who don't actually get where he's trying to take us, or misread what he's trying to do. I believe he'll be safe because everyone I've spoken to within the club are full of praise for him.

 

[Rohde2Nowhere]

The stats are becoming more and more irrelevant. A lot of our players were getting good numbers but were ineffective. One passage of play we had about 8 handballs then a turnover and goal. Starting kicking the ball might help??

 

[Anja_Nees]

The only people who seem to have no confidence in Macca are those who don't actually get where he's trying to take us, or misread what he's trying to do. I believe he'll be safe because everyone I've spoken to within the club are full of praise for him.

I know what he's trying to do and I applaud it. The reality is though that the win/loss is worse than any of us (and apparently even McCartney) expected and the points for/against is getting ugly. If people are still content he is going the right way about the rebuild they should welcome the scrutiny. I'm concerned (not fatally) with a number of matters raised above. I didn't expect us to be a good side this year, but I expected more and we were promised more. There must be reasons and I'd like to know what they are.

 

[Tommycash]

The stats are becoming more and more irrelevant. A lot of our players were getting good numbers but were ineffective. One passage of play we had about 8 handballs then a turnover and goal. Starting kicking the ball might help??

Amen, we're handballing our way to oblivion at the moment.

On this, have you noticed whenever we get a free, or a mark, we handball to the man running past. That's regardless of whether it's actually safe/productive to do so. I think the players need to use a bit more discretion. It kills me when we have a free, play on straight away and either turn it over or turn it into a stoppage.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Amen, we're handballing our way to oblivion at the moment.

On this, have you noticed whenever we get a free, or a mark, we handball to the man running past. That's regardless of whether it's actually safe/productive to do so. I think the players need to use a bit more discretion. It kills me when we have a free, play on straight away and either turn it over or turn it into a stoppage.

I agree. I'm sure that McCartney is encouraging them to play on and move the ball quickly. It hasn't worked thus far. Some will get better at it in time. I remember seeing Hawthorn chip it around to loud derision from the crowd week after week in 2005 and 2006 but they eventually started to get it right. It sure isn't working now.

At the same time, if we had some hard running forwards and players who could kick it would mean not handballing so much.

 

[gimp!]

Anybody else feel like Rocket was giving McCartney a bit of a jab on 360 last night? "The thing with contested ball... every team focuses on it. It's not your gameplan because every team focuses on it." Had quite a jabby vibe to it.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Anybody else feel like Rocket was giving McCartney a bit of a jab on 360 last night? "The thing with contested ball... every team focuses on it. It's not your gameplan because every team focuses on it." Had quite a jabby vibe to it.

Anything about the game would be a jab on Bmac as he doesnt have a clue on the coaching caper.
As a coach Bmac can't polish Eade's boots.

 

[VitalDread]

this has made my morning.

 

[Butane]

Shields up boys

 

[Anja_Nees]

Anybody else feel like Rocket was giving McCartney a bit of a jab on 360 last night? "The thing with contested ball... every team focuses on it. It's not your gameplan because every team focuses on it." Had quite a jabby vibe to it.

There's no obvious reason he would have an animosity towards McCartney but Rocket has every right to feel agrieved. All the fools calling for his head two years ago because he had 'lost touch with the modern game' (so much that Collingwood scrambled to appoint him for Malthouse's designated spot the second he became available) must be starting to wonder now. Rocket was never the problem at our club. He took it over when we had won 8 games in two seasons and were at an all time low in terms of confidence and marketability and made us a fantastic side to watch.

I'm not trying to lay into McCartney, but his repeated statements about teaching our players the 'right way to play football' clearly implies that they were playing the wrong way previously. I'm sure he didn't mean to sledge Rocket, but I could understand Rocket not being impressed by it. He squeezed every drop of talent out of our list and took us to three prelims. He did not deserved to be sacked. The reality is that our list was in a poor state and he probably wouldn't have survived another few years but I don't think he was treated fairly at all. He took it well but what has followed in the two years since would never have been allowed by Rocket.

 

[Tommycash]

There's no obvious reason he would have an animosity towards McCartney but Rocket has every right to feel agrieved. All the fools calling for his head two years ago because he had 'lost touch with the modern game' (so much that Collingwood scrambled to appoint him for Malthouse's designated spot the second he became available) must be starting to wonder now. Rocket was never the problem at our club. He took it over when we had won 8 games in two seasons and were at an all time low in terms of confidence and marketability and made us a fantastic side to watch.

I'm not trying to lay into McCartney, but his repeated statements about teaching our players the 'right way to play football' clearly implies that they were playing the wrong way previously. I'm sure he didn't mean to sledge Rocket, but I could understand Rocket not being impressed by it. He squeezed every drop of talent out of our list and took us to three prelims. He did not deserved to be sacked. The reality is that our list was in a poor state and he probably wouldn't have survived another few years but I don't think he was treated fairly at all. He took it well but what has followed in the two years since would never have been allowed by Rocket.

Trouble is, I think football clubs do need to refresh every now and then. Rocket had been there for a fair while, and while he made us play good football, I don't think he was right for developing our list.

 

[Trent85]

I know what he's trying to do and I applaud it. The reality is though that the win/loss is worse than any of us (and apparently even McCartney) expected and the points for/against is getting ugly. If people are still content he is going the right way about the rebuild they should welcome the scrutiny. I'm concerned (not fatally) with a number of matters raised above. I didn't expect us to be a good side this year, but I expected more and we were promised more. There must be reasons and I'd like to know what they are.

Critiquing is one thing and should be allowed its when people lay in the boot for the sake of it I have a problem.
I don't blindly agree with B-Mac and club on all of their decisions but like you I can see where they are going.

As for reasons why we are this bad how long have you got?
1. when under pressure we go to handball happy or play hot potato football
2. when under pressure we just blindly bomb away with a nothing kick
3. player movement or spread whatever you want to call it is a big weakness for us. The players have to realise that if you keep moving its actually better for the team then a stationary target i.e. kick ins, realising to a free player etc. I might get screamed at but look at the NRL the really good teams like in AFL have the players constantly moving and get the ball with momentum. It's not handed to them while they are stationary or passed behind them as well.
4. we are not too bad at rebound football but our skills let us down
5. turnovers and mistakes are our biggest killers because it usually leads to a goal for the opposition when we should be kicking for one (I'm not too worried about this because as the players get more individual and team experience it should improve)
6. Our forwards are either too old (gia) or too young (jones, stringer) but I hope that Dicko gets back soon also that Higgins for once has a good solid run in 2014. Sidenote I reckon if we got Gumby from the Bombers it would of helped heaps but coulda woulda shoulda doesn't help us now...

I've got more if you want?

 

[Anja_Nees]

Shields up boys

I suspect our side's fate will be much the same as the army from 300 for the rest of the year.