Society/Culture Alex Pearce supports Palestine/promotes terrorism depending who you ask

[Episode IV]

It's certainly interesting how often you decide to just jump in to defend some pretty... awful shit, EIV.

I'm not defending anything, Gethelred. I'm attempting to explain it from a more neutral perspective.

Once you stop reading the propaganda and read the actual history, instead, it becomes readily apparent that both sides can easily lay claim to the "look what you made us do" argument.

Often, I'll just do what I do because the "other side" isn't getting much in the way of representation.
It seems a bit unfair that we're obliged to listen to impassioned speeches describing the horrors people have "witnessed" when only one side has that representation.
I'll also note that the more fervent of recriminations also seem to come from those with skin in the game, as it were - or at least a sense of affinity.

 

[RCAB]

just wow

Hyperfocusing on the word “Hamas” while ignoring the entire lived context behind my post is telling.

It shows that at the moment you're not willing to engage with the uncomfortable reality I described. You're reaction is a typical one for those that are conditioned to recoil from it.


So let's reframe it in a way that it might be possible for you to empathise with...


Imagine you live in Brightonb. One day, a more powerful, technologically advanced neighbour tells you:
“Sorry — you don’t get to live here anymore. This is ours now. You can move to Frankston.”

Then they wall you in.
You’re not allowed to leave.
They control your borders, your water, your electricity, your food, your airspace.
They bomb your only power plant.
They destroy your airport so you can’t escape.
They send drones overhead 24/7 — drones that can kill you or your kids without warning, and usually, without consequences.
They shoot your children at protests like they’re playing paintball.
You’re trapped in a place with two million others, and every few years they flatten entire suburbs in “precision strikes” that somehow leave hundreds dead.

And let’s say, after 20 years of this, you and others decide... no more. You form a resistance. You fight back.

Now imagine the outside world watches this from a distance, shakes their head, and says:


“Just wow.”


That’s what you did.

Not because you’re evil, but because you’ve never had to imagine what it’s like when you’re the one behind the fence.
So maybe stop policing the anger of the caged and start questioning the hands that built the cage.

 

[Episode IV]

... and then there was that research done (prior to Oct 7) which noted that kids in certain areas of Israel (the border towns, where most of the rockets fall) had extremely high rates of PTSD related disorders as a result of living under the constant threat of rockets, missiles, suicide bombings and what have you for their entire lives. Adults the same, of course, but the research was focused on the kids.

 

[RCAB]

... and then there was that research done (prior to Oct 7) which noted that kids in certain areas of Israel (the border towns, where most of the rockets fall) had extremely high rates of PTSD related disorders as a result of living under the constant threat of rockets, missiles, suicide bombings and what have you for their entire lives. Adults the same, of course, but the research was focused on the kids.

Now do Gaza

 

[Episode IV]

Now do Gaza

Seems you and yours are handling that side of things well enough.

 

[RCAB]

Seems you and yours are handling that side of things well enough.

And that’s the problem, isn’t it?

You brought up Israeli children’s trauma like it demanded urgent recognition.

I asked you to look at Gaza’s children and your answer was basically “not my job.”

So you don’t deny their suffering, you're just filing it under “someone else’s emotional labour.”
That tells me everything.

So the reason it's not your job, and it's my job, is this a geopolitical border thing, or a morality thing for you? Where are you drawing the line?

 

[Harlott]

... and then there was that research done (prior to Oct 7) which noted that kids in certain areas of Israel (the border towns, where most of the rockets fall) had extremely high rates of PTSD related disorders as a result of living under the constant threat of rockets, missiles, suicide bombings and what have you for their entire lives. Adults the same, of course, but the research was focused on the kids.

I guess prior to Oct 7, Palestinians shouldn’t have threatened with rockets, missiles, suicide bombings, rock throwing etc and Israel should’ve stopped mowing the lawn, ended the occupation etc to alleviate some of the PTSD. Just adding some neutrality.
Also those at the festival on Oct 7 were ones seemingly unaffected enough to be able to attend a concert near the border.

 

[Episode IV]

And that’s the problem, isn’t it?

You brought up Israeli children’s trauma like it demanded urgent recognition.

I asked you to look at Gaza’s children and your answer was basically “not my job.”

So you don’t deny their suffering, you're just filing it under “someone else’s emotional labour.”
That tells me everything.

So the reason it's not your job, and it's my job, is this a geopolitical border thing, or a morality thing for you? Where are you drawing the line?

Well, no, I was merely responding to your monologue. Against my better judgment, as it happens.

You know, the really disturbing thing about your post was that I wrote one very, very similar a year or two ago. Except from Israel's perspective. The whole "imagine if..." bit.
It wasn't very well received.

 

[RCAB]

Well, no, I was merely responding to your monologue. Against my better judgment, as it happens.

You know, the really disturbing thing about your post was that I wrote one very, very similar a year or two ago. Except from Israel's perspective. The whole "imagine if..." bit.
It wasn't very well received.

I don't know about your Israeli perspective post from before, was it similar to what you've been posting here right now?

The difference might be this:

When you said it, people didn’t listen and now you’ve decided not to listen either. Dismissed my previous post as a monologue. But here’s where it stops being abstract for me.


I’ve personally known people in Gaza, people whose entire families were wiped out in a single airstrike. Not hypotheticals. Not headlines. Just gone.

So when I say “Now do Gaza,” I’m not playing some rhetorical tit-for-tat. I’m asking you (genuinely), to extend the same moral imagination you once asked for yourself.

You said you were disturbed by my post. Why?

But do you know what's really interesting to me?

Instead of reaching out across that shared human thread, you recoiled.

Maybe what’s really disturbing is that you recognized yourself in it.

 

[Episode IV]

I guess prior to Oct 7, Palestinians shouldn’t have threatened with rockets, missiles, suicide bombings, rock throwing etc and Israel should’ve stopped mowing the lawn, ended the occupation etc to alleviate some of the PTSD. Just adding some neutrality.
Also those at the festival on Oct 7 were ones seemingly unaffected enough to be able to attend a concert near the border.

I suppose I'd have to start back in 1948 to be able to respond to this really. Which... yeah, nah.

One point, though. That Israel had a false sense of security resulting from a perceived technological advantage and an overestimation of intelligence capabilities and defenses played no small part in a bunch of kids not realizing how much danger they were in.

The developed world often underestimates the intelligence of militant organisations based on a lack of technology.
Israel forgot for a moment that sitting under a great big shield isn't a viable long term strategy. Particularly not when that great big shield has some holes in it which have been papered over for a long period of time.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Well, I haven’t seen it. And I haven’t seen the celebration of Palestinian deaths in mainstream discussions.

Laughable

In Israel, calls for genocide have migrated from the margins to the mainstream

The Bible contains some explicit genocidal narratives, and over time, some religious Zionists have wielded these stories to advocate for the destruction of the Palestinians.

theconversation.com

 

[Episode IV]

I don't know about your Israeli perspective post from before, was it similar to what you've been posting here right now?

No, as I said it was almost identical to yours, except from an Israeli perspective. Come to think of it, there was more than one in the same vein I wrote back then. But one in particular rings a bell.

The difference might be this:

When you said it, people didn’t listen and now you’ve decided not to listen either. Dismissed my previous post as a monologue. But here’s where it stops being abstract for me.

If I wasn't listening, why did I respond?

I’ve personally known people in Gaza, people whose entire families were wiped out in a single airstrike. Not hypotheticals. Not headlines. Just gone.

So when I say “Now do Gaza,” I’m not playing some rhetorical tit-for-tat. I’m asking you (genuinely), to extend the same moral imagination you once asked for yourself.

I have, and I do.
The trick is, you have to imagine people as people... not Israelis, not Gazans. Not Palestinians. Not Hamas.
Perhaps it might be more difficult for you due to that personal connection?

You said you were disturbed by my post. Why?

Because it was so very, very similar... in tone, in intent... it felt as if you'd actually read mine.

But do you know what's really interesting to me?

Instead of reaching out across that shared human thread, you recoiled.

Maybe what’s really disturbing is that you recognized yourself in it.

I rather thought I was presenting that "shared human" perspective. I don't know what you think I'm recoiling from.

Here's another tip - rather than accusing others of looking into mirrors, consider instead that they might have already done so. That enables one to see things from a wider perspective, and helps with losing the white hat/black hat view of the world.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm not defending anything, Gethelred. I'm attempting to explain it from a more neutral perspective.

Once you stop reading the propaganda and read the actual history, instead, it becomes readily apparent that both sides can easily lay claim to the "look what you made us do" argument.

The problem I have with this is Palestine don't really have a propaganda wing and Hamas are some of the least sympathetic victims in history. Trying to paint what has occurred in this way fails to recognise the profound difference in reach and relative advantage between the two groups.

Both sides could, but the problem is at the moment, only one side is actively pursuing extermination of their opponent whilst also claiming themselves to be the victim.

Often, I'll just do what I do because the "other side" isn't getting much in the way of representation.

Devil's Advocate?

Must you?

It seems a bit unfair that we're obliged to listen to impassioned speeches describing the horrors people have "witnessed" when only one side has that representation.

... and that side has been, since the 90's, pretty exclusively Israel. Since Rafah began losing ground, since Rabin was assassinated due to trying to find coexistence with Palestine.

I'll also note that the more fervent of recriminations also seem to come from those with skin in the game, as it were - or at least a sense of affinity.

This is probably be true enough.

 

[EconomicDecline]

Here’s another perspective.

Remember when the world would refer to Gaza as the world’s largest open air prison, until Oct 7 2023 (when apparently history began).

https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Palestine-2019-panels-13Nov-low-res.pdf

Not able to leave unless “allowed” by Israel.

Movement in and out of Gaza: update covering January 2022

www.unocha.org

When blockades by Israel included bans on such things as pasta, concrete, wheelchairs and soccer balls.

Gaza imports - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And what crime had the population committed (before history began on Oct 7)?

If I and 2 million others were imprisoned to live a life of scraps, I would fight back.

 

[Harlott]

I suppose I'd have to start back in 1948 to be able to respond to this really. Which... yeah, nah.

One point, though. That Israel had a false sense of security resulting from a perceived technological advantage and an overestimation of intelligence capabilities and defenses played no small part in a bunch of kids not realizing how much danger they were in.

The developed world often underestimates the intelligence of militant organisations based on a lack of technology.
Israel forgot for a moment that sitting under a great big shield isn't a viable long term strategy. Particularly not when that great big shield has some holes in it which have been papered over for a long period of time.

So where “most of the rockets fall”, in areas where kids suffer severe PTSD they decided it was a neat idea to host a music festival for mainly kids and felt at the time, secure enough to do so…

 

[Episode IV]

The problem I have with this is Palestine don't really have a propaganda wing and Hamas are some of the least sympathetic victims in history. Trying to paint what has occurred in this way fails to recognise the profound difference in reach and relative advantage between the two groups.

One could argue that the more rabid left (LGBT for Palestine??? Good lord) is a much more effective propaganda arm than Hamas could ever hope to emulate, but... fair enough.

Both sides could, but the problem is at the moment, only one side is actively pursuing extermination of their opponent whilst also claiming themselves to be the victim.

Yes, at the moment. But that hasn't always been the case, has it.
Back in 1948, Israel was attacked by a coalition of Arab nations before they'd a chance to boil the kettle for a cup of tea. The resilience and genius with which they defended themselves was reminiscent of Oct 7, irrespective of scale.

Despite all of its bluster, Israel is afraid.
I'm not really sure how far I'll go with that. I can think of a comparison, but it'd invoke all sorts of semiotic images which won't go down well, regardless of how well that comparison applies.

Devil's Advocate?

Must you?

I think so, sometimes, yes.
Otherwise, you run the risk of the discussion devolving into a circle jerk of loud voices drowning out everything else.
I've seen other boards go down this path, better ones than this, in the past... not much left of them now.

I'm not really sure how much the "devil's advocate" part really applies, but... ok.

... and that side has been, since the 90's, pretty exclusively Israel. Since Rafah began losing ground, since Rabin was assassinated due to trying to find coexistence with Palestine.

If we're going to go cherry-picking individual events, we'll be here for the next month or two.
That's the main problem with this war, isn't it.

 

[Episode IV]

So where “most of the rockets fall”, in areas where kids suffer severe PTSD they decided it was a neat idea to host a music festival for mainly kids and felt at the time, secure enough to do so…

Yes, that's sort of what I said. I doubt that, musical festival organizers being much the same all over the world, they put too much effort into doing a risk assessment first. And obviously I have no idea what the results of such an assessment might have been. Given that false sense of security prior to Oct 7, I'm not sure it would have prevented a go ahead anyway.

It should be noted that kids all over Israel exhibit higher levels of mental conditions related to PTSD, but its most perceptible in those areas closer to the border. I should also mention that I remember reading that the researchers wanted to conduct similar research in Palestinian areas, but were not able to do so.

And when I say "higher"... I mean levels that would horrify folks in more peaceful areas.

 

[CM86]

Yes, that's sort of what I said. I doubt that, musical festival organizers being much the same all over the world, they put too much effort into doing a risk assessment first. And obviously I have no idea what the results of such an assessment might have been. Given that false sense of security prior to Oct 7, I'm not sure it would have prevented a go ahead anyway.

It should be noted that kids all over Israel exhibit higher levels of mental conditions related to PTSD, but its most perceptible in those areas closer to the border. I should also mention that I remember reading that the researchers wanted to conduct similar research in Palestinian areas, but were not able to do so.

And when I say "higher"... I mean levels that would horrify folks in more peaceful areas.

What are you talking about?

 

[Mofra]

Yes, that's sort of what I said. I doubt that, musical festival organizers being much the same all over the world, they put too much effort into doing a risk assessment first. And obviously I have no idea what the results of such an assessment might have been. Given that false sense of security prior to Oct 7, I'm not sure it would have prevented a go ahead anyway.

It should be noted that kids all over Israel exhibit higher levels of mental conditions related to PTSD, but its most perceptible in those areas closer to the border. I should also mention that I remember reading that the researchers wanted to conduct similar research in Palestinian areas, but were not able to do so.

And when I say "higher"... I mean levels that would horrify folks in more peaceful areas.

Moving that music festival site would not justify bombing civilians and burning children alive, which is what most people take issue with here.

 

[jannissary]

Moving that music festival site would not justify bombing civilians and burning children alive, which is what most people take issue with here.

hosting the next groovin in the moo at christmas island

 

[Episode IV]

Here they come, and there it goes.

 

[jannissary]

Here they come, and there it goes.

okay, do you think it's wise to hold a party in front of an open air prison?

 

[ZEV]

okay, do you think it's wise to hold a party in front of an open air prison?

Kibbutz Re'im is over 7 kilometres from the border.

 

[jannissary]

Kibbutz Re'im is over 7 kilometres from the border.

7 whole kilometres! that's like, 7'000 metres! that really doesn't answer my question though. is it an objectively good idea to have the shitty psytrance "rave" in front of a prison?

 

[RCAB]

Kibbutz Re'im is over 7 kilometres from the border.

You said "just wow" earlier. Let’s stay with that for a moment.

Because “just wow” is exactly what someone says when they’ve never had to imagine life from behind the fence.

You pointed out that Kibbutz Re’im is over 7km from Gaza...as if that neatly boxes the problem up.

But the trauma doesn’t observe distance. Nor do drones, hunger or grief.

Save the Children reports over 14,000 kids killed in Gaza.
WHO says mental health collapse is now “near-total” for children.
Thousands are buried, uncounted. Entire families erased. That’s not propaganda, it's human statistics.

So when someone asks whether it was a good idea to throw a rave next to a prison, maybe don’t reach for Google Maps, reach for empathy for those children.


You said “just wow” before?
Yeah, same.