All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[ZEV]

I don't get why they bothered doctoring it. 'Gas the jews' is only marginally worse than 'where's the jews' anyway, given the context on that day.

I think the action that everyone is putting down to "doctoring" was the editing of the raw footage and placing their watermark on it.

Yes, I'm sure they were saying "wheres the Jews"

Not to mention;

Police had earlier said they had received statements from several people at the protest which indicated they had heard the phrase being used.
However, specific individuals who used it were not pinpointed, and Lanyon said those witnesses would not be spoken to again.

Next time there is a violent crowd burning flags and calling for the destruction of Israel I'm sure everyone will be fine to ask for some identification.

 

[Markfs]

Let's be very clear and specific in what occurred.

A large protest took place at an event that showed solidarity with the 1200 victims and families of a terrorist attack.

It was highjacked by a group of protestors that were so threatening, Australian Jews were forced not to attend.

"Deputy Commissioner Mal Lanyon said today that after consulting an "eminent" and experienced expert from the National Centre of Biometric Science, who undertook a lengthy examination of the audio-video files of the demonstration, the phrase "gas the Jews" was not uttered.
Lanyon said the phrase identified by the expert, with "overwhelming certainty", was "where's the Jews".
He acknowledged also that other offensive language was used, including "f--- the Jews"."

are you at all concerned with the deaths of 25,000 babies, children and women in gaza? ....and the 7000 buried alive under the rubble....and the 30,000+ who are maimed by daily bombing?....

 

[vindaloo]

are you at all concerned with the deaths of 25,000 babies, children and women in gaza? ....and the 7000 buried alive under the rubble....and the 30,000+ who are maimed by daily bombing?....

You can be concerned about both right?

 

[Markfs]

That was then. Now bibi could be tried at the Hague.
I reckon I've always been balanced with my position on this.

if he is tried, i'll barrack for carlton

 

[Markfs]

You can be concerned bout both?

my government is supporting israel....it's not supporting the anti-jewish brigade and neither am i.

but you still didnt answer my question... let me put it to you. You view the deaths of palestinians as collateral damage, as our gov't does.

p.s. maybe you're not australian, so forgive the use of "our"

 

[ZEV]

are you at all concerned with the deaths of 25,000 babies, children and women in gaza? ....and the 7000 buried alive under the rubble....and the 30,000+ who are maimed by daily bombing?....

Im deeply troubled by all the deaths (except Hamas members and terrrorists).

I don't think you understand that majority of Israeli citizens and Palestinians have no problem with each other and care deeply. It's the leader ship that is the issue.

If you are going to use civilian deaths in attempt to dehumanise and demonise me at least have the respect to somewhat get the numbers right. You seem to have omitted the deaths of all the terrorists and militants that sparked this conflict.

 

[ZEV]

my government is supporting israel....it's not supporting the anti-jewish brigade and neither am i.

but you still didnt answer my question... let me put it to you. You view the deaths of palestinians as collateral damage, as our gov't does.

p.s. maybe you're not australian, so forgive the use of "our"

Your government is pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. They are not mutually exclusive. They are anti-Hamas.

 

[vindaloo]

my government is supporting israel....it's not supporting the anti-jewish brigade and neither am i.

but you still didnt answer my question... let me put it to you. You view the deaths of palestinians as collateral damage, as our gov't does.

p.s. maybe you're not australian, so forgive the use of "our"

Our government.
Israel has a right to defend itself... but its important how it defends itself.. basically that's their position... not too unreasonable.

 

[Markfs]

Im deeply troubled by all the deaths (except Hamas members and terrrorists).

I don't think you understand that majority of Israeli citizens and Palestinians have no problem with each other and care deeply. It's the leader ship that is the issue.

If you are going to use civilian deaths in attempt to dehumanise and demonise me at least have the respect to somewhat get the numbers right. You seem to have omitted the deaths of all the terrorists and militants that sparked this conflict.

so of course, the deaths can be trivialised because of my stats. i'm not surprised. and you didnt mention that hamas was responsible for the civilian deaths.....

i dont understand you bit about trying to dehumanise etc you. I merely asked a question. Most israelis dont want the israeli leadership because it didnt keep the palestinians pacified...and the current hostage situation. It's not because they dont want bombs dropped on civilians.

 

[Markfs]

Our government.
Israel has a right to defend itself... but its important how it defends itself.. basically that's their position... not too unreasonable.

so to sharpen that up a little, you suppor the bombing of gaza in light of what has happened to the civilians. fair enuf. There's a lot of you including penny wong and albo...

 

[Markfs]

Your government is pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. They are not mutually exclusive. They are anti-Hamas.

how's the weather over there?

 

[ZEV]

so of course, the deaths can be trivialised because of my stats. i'm not surprised. and you didnt mention that hamas was responsible for the civilian deaths.....

i dont understand you bit about trying to dehumanise etc you. I merely asked a question. Most israelis dont want the israeli leadership because it didnt keep the palestinians pacified...and the current hostage situation. It's not because they dont want bombs dropped on civilians.

I don't understand what you rambling about.

I think you'll find Netanyahu's popularity was waning long before OCt 7.

 

[JB1975]

Let's be very clear and specific in what occurred.

A large protest took place at an event that showed solidarity with the 1200 victims and families of a terrorist attack.

It was highjacked by a group of protestors that were so threatening, Australian Jews were forced not to attend.

I feel pretty clear about what occurred.

No hijacking.

On the eve of Israel's military campaign, mostly peaceful people gathered at the Opera House to signal their support for Palestine.

An offensive minority said hateful things, but these things weren't hateful enough, so lies were spread about the size of the offensive element and the substance of what they said.

On the basis of this disinformation, the NSW parliament reacted by passing some laws, which reinforced the lies that were told.

The moral of the story is that we should try and avoid lies and hyperbole, especially when the truth isn't especially flash.

 

[Markfs]

I don't understand what you rambling about.

I think you'll find Netanyahu's popularity was waning long before OCt 7.

yes he's corrupt but the bombing would remain even if he was thrown out.

 

[Markfs]

I feel pretty clear about what occurred.

No hijacking.

On the eve of Israel's military campaign, mostly peaceful people gathered at the Opera House to signal their support for Palestine.

An offensive minority said hateful things, but these things weren't hateful enough, so lies were spread about the size of the offensive element and the substance of what they said.

On the basis of this disinformation, the NSW parliament reacted by passing some laws, which reinforced the lies that were told.

The moral of the story is that we should try and avoid lies and hyperbole, especially when the truth isn't especially flash.

the moral is find out who is running foreign policy....

 

[ZEV]

I feel pretty clear about what occurred.

No hijacking.

On the eve of Israel's military campaign, mostly peaceful people gathered at the Opera House to signal their support for Palestine.

An offensive minority said hateful things, but these things weren't hateful enough, so lies were spread about the size of the offensive element and the substance of what they said.

On the basis of this disinformation, the NSW parliament reacted by passing some laws, which reinforced the lies that were told.

The moral of the story is that we should try and avoid lies and hyperbole, especially when the truth isn't especially flash.

Are your beliefs about the Opera House protest the same about the Burgertory episode?

 

[Markfs]

a man who likes to ask questions ....

there must be a course on these techniques. I should sign up for one of those free vacations that politicians go on.

 

[JB1975]

Are your beliefs about the Opera House protest the same about the Burgertory episode?

Think I made my views on the Burgertory episode clear at the time.

There was no justification for what happened that day. To descend upon Caulfield because of the flaming of a burger joint was nothing more or less than provocation and intimidation.

Even if there was some kind of evidence of political motivation, which there wasn't, the targeting of an area with a large Jewish population was racially motivated and hateful.

These were a bunch of self-important a-holes who took it upon themselves to jump to a conclusion which had no relation to the plight of Palestinian people.

I condemned it then and I condemn it now.

 

[vindaloo]

so to sharpen that up a little, you suppor the bombing of gaza in light of what has happened to the civilians. fair enuf. There's a lot of you including penny wong and albo...

Gosh geopolitics is fascinating, absolutely fascinating but far more complex than this.

 

[Markfs]

Think I made my views on the Burgertory episode clear at the time.

There was no justification for what happened that day. To descend upon Caulfield because of the flaming of a burger joint was nothing more or less than provocation and intimidation.

Even if there was some kind of evidence of political motivation, which there wasn't, the targeting of an area with a large Jewish population was racially motivated and hateful.

These were a bunch of self-important a-holes who took it upon themselves to jump to a conclusion which had no relation to the plight of Palestinian people.

I condemned it then and I condemn it now.

not bad but not enough.... you could clear up some wording such as "plight".

you also need to say that it's justifiable to kill babies in order to get to hamas. ....

 

[JB1975]

the moral is find out who is running foreign policy....

Not sure. The US keeps yammering on about the importance of holding onto the two-state solution, which is curious given how unrealistic such an outcome is.

Some might suspect the US of feeling obliged to say such things, to pretend that the dream of Palestinian statehood is actually alive.

Not even Australia is bothering with those platitudes, really.

 

[Markfs]

Gosh geopolitics is fascinating, absolutely fascinating but far more complex than this.

yes i agree. I cant work out what the israelis have on australia. Do you know? if the russians were killing ukrainians at this rate, penny wong would be going off the chart.....but she's as docile as a lamb.

 

[JB1975]

not bad but not enough.... you could clear up some wording such as "plight".

you also need to say that it's justifiable to kill babies in order to get to hamas. ....

We're all doing the best we can in difficult circumstances.

 

[Markfs]

Not sure. The US keeps yammering on about the importance of holding onto the two-state solution, which is curious given how unrealistic such an outcome is.

Some might suspect the US of feeling obliged to say such things, to pretend that the dream of Palestinian statehood is actually alive.

Not even Australia is bothering with those platitudes, really.

the two state thing is dead...israel wants gaza and the west bank. It's been obvious for years. I have an idea why the US wants to wag itself for israel, but is the australian gov't acting so gutless just to keep friendly with the USA? And the liberal politicians are almost rabid....I dont think that I've ever seen a liberal pollie passionate about this country in the way they feel about israel....

 

[Phil Inn]

Are your beliefs about the Opera House protest the same about the Burgertory episode?

I can sum up mine if it helps


Opera House

As JB said above.

A situation that included some bad people doing bad things was inflamed by an extremist organisation, the AJA, who are despite their name a fringe fascist organisation the personal project of a couple of crackpots, with no more right to represent the Jewish community than I do and an embarrassment to mainstream Jewish organisations in Australia, did what they specialise in and cooked some footage to create outrage. They did this because it suits certain political parties in Aus to give them more clout than they deserve because of their shared politics and it suits them to paint the AJA as representative of Australian Jewry

They were very prominent in supporting Deeming for example post her neo nazi supported demonstration breakdown, and Deeming quoted them with approval as representing the thoughts of Australian Jewry, which horrified the heck out of the actual groups like the ECAJ.

Burgertory

The story here is probably simpler than anyone is admitting.

There have been a spate of firebombings of late. If you dig into it, the situation is an ongoing underworld feud between rival groups which started with firebombings as part of a campaign of intimidation and establishing protection rackets, and morphed into an out and out war.

Though nobody seems to be saying it outright, it's probably likely our friend at Buergertory is therefore involved in things that might not be good. Just hypothetically, food outlets are a standard front for drug operations, as they handle a lot of cash and foot traffic, and are great for money laundering. Apropos of nothing.

Hypothetically the owner would have some great incentives then to point the finger elsewhere to deflect attention from the untidy fact that being a victim of one of these firebombings kind of points to your involvement in things you might not want talked about.




The common link I guess is nefarious people inflaming a situation to their own purposes caring not a damn about the people impacted, the violence they incite, or the effect on society be they members of their own community, or their supposed "enemies"