Americans- how do you view them?

[Stealth bomber]

That's pretty accurate, actually. Particularly the part about the Mexicans.

 

[mentalgrind]

originally posted by M29

LOL...

That's really funny yet so true.

 

[Slax]

Americans aren't too bad. I travelled around the world and stayed in hostles with Yanks (they are not Americans because Brazilians are technically Americans too) and got to know some immintently. They are the same as most other Western cultures only slightly more abrupt about things.

They do not know much about diplomacy inside personal conversations and will say things up front and will quite often say things without thinking about where they are. But US citizens also vary from which part of the country they are from Texans are the nasty ones everyone hates, along with Califorians (on the most part). But alot of them from the NE states are fine.

Aussies just be just asd objectionable as loud mouth drunks too.

 

[NYPomme]

I'm sure you're a good bloke, however despite my request, I'm still yet to discover coherence in your argument.

Let's take it piecemeal - and then uncover what has been omitted......

Originally posted by Denverdog
I'm quite sure that no matter what I say I will offend someone.
Correct!

Since you asked however I'll respond. The last time the US sat out of a major European war ( WWI) the basic idea that all the Generals could come up with was "run at the guns and hope they run out of bullets". Is this a generalization? Yes! However given the amount of commentary within English and French society about WWI I believe we could all safely say that none of the Genearls had a clue about what they were doing. Did America win WWI? No. Did we make it a little easier? Yes. Did we do much fighting? No. The French and English could have won this war on their own. Basically they did. To say they did it with great Generalship would be a complete farce. The fact that the French Army revolted is testament to that.

Glad you are so topical!The Great War took place over 80 years ago. I guess most people would see that as a little dated reference - whatever point you are trying to make re: US intervention. If you wish to compare conflicts in a similar time period, you might wish take a look at the American civil war (less than 50 years earlier than the Great War (with which has many analogies - principally in that technologies greatly outstriped tactics of the day). No European intervention required that time!

If we want to look at ineptitude of tactics fitting conditions - I think we only have to look to the Vietnam War.

If you want to argue about democracy go ahead and do it with yourselves. Americans have never voted in the same percentages as Europeans. Basically that's because American's don't get the same things from their governments as Europeans.

Oh really - isn't that slightly disappointing! 'Government for the people, by the people.........'

Europeans by and large have socialist governments that dole out huge amounts of money through their social programs.

NAME ONE EUROPEAN SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT! and no, Sweden does not count!

There is a much larger percentage of people within Europe who are actually voting for their paycheck (government dole) than in America. Hence a greater degree of participation. Disagree? Fine. I doubt we'll ever agree no matter how much we discuss it.

Fine by me too!


Europeans always love a dictator. You can argue that is not the case but you have little evidence to back it up. Europe has been living with the American Army camped within it since the end of WWII. Don't like it? Neither do I. It's about time that we left and left you Europeans to get along all by yourselves. If the American Army left the Continent it wouldn't take more than 10 years for the Europeans to start another war. Look at all the "Far Right" candidates that the European media are always complaining about. You can ban the Nazi party but the same morons keep showing up in European politics. They just call themselves different names.

You still cannot predict where the war - and between whom it will take place. Did you let me know how many European nations went to war over the last 50 years?

If you wish to cite the proliferation of material build up in the Europe - can you let me know who was 'fueling' this in the post-war bipolar world? Just out interest.

I agree with your summation of Nazi as morons. They certainly are. Any person who views one race above another is certainly a moron. I am happy that the United States finally joined the rest of world in the 1960's when they ended segregation. A little late ...but there you go!.

Want to brag about how great Europeans get along? Well let's see. England and Ireland have been "fighting" for the last 300 years.

Do you mean The United Kingdom or England? England hasn't existed as a nation for over 200 years!
The UK has never fought a war against the Republic of Ireland.
And by the way, thanks for being topical (300 years)

It's just that everyone wants to keep it real quiet and not talk about it.

Oh conspiracy theories ...spooky! I couldn't even hazard a guess at how much government info. is not in the US public domain - would you?

Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Poland, etc. There's not really much for them to fight about is there? What on Earth would ever propel these countries to war? Nothing. So bragging that they aren't at war, or haven't been at war, doesn't say much does it does it? France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and Switzerland. The American Army has had bases in four of these countries for the last 60 years. Switzerland isn't interested in doing anything except piling up money so bragging that they haven't been at war doesn't say much either. The other countries have been getting along so long as a World Super power has been parked in their driveways. Look at all the competition between these countries over markets etc. Yeah Europeans are really peaceful people until the unions go on strike and the Army is called out because they've destroyed 10 city blocks over some trade practice. Don't even argue against it. I've lived there and seen it. Talk about being "high and mighty" that's what the Europeans are. They think they are so much more civilzed than American's. Yet when the Unions go on strike look out.

With respect, this entire paragraph is non-sensical.
I haven't bragged about these countries once - they have not been to war, true - but what is your point?. You stated that their seems to be a constant war going on in Europe - and then you go on to say that the fact that most countries in Europe haven't fought each other - but that it doesn't count because they have nothing to fight about. Huh?

I repeat my question - how many European countries have fought each other in the last 50 years!?

Relax, noone is getting "high and mighty" - I'm just trying to see your point..however I having trouble with your argument.


And then we come to the Balkans and Eastern Europe. I'm quite sure you remember the "dictators" that used to be in power over there. Or have you conveniently forgotten? It sure was nice to see Germany and France jump in there and take control of that situation wasn't it? Only Britain did anything. Britain is the only country in Europe that ever does anything. They are the only country I have any respect for. At least they have the guts to do the dirty work when it needs to be done. Oh by the way if everything in Europe is so tidy then why do they need a War crimes tribunal? Is it because there are so many war crimes being committed? Gee for a place that doesn't have a problem going to war with itself there seems to be some inconsistantcies doesn't it?

The war of Yugoslavian succession was a civil war. I agree that the Balkans has many many problems - that are rooted in a very long history. Part of the legacy issues that the former yugoslavia are confronted with are due to the fact that competing 'civilizations' (European and Asian) have exerted control over the region - over many centuries. Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian Empire. You might also seek to examine the impact of Wilson's 14 points on the region.

Since Milosevic (an ex-communist - acting as a nationalist for less than 3 years (???? think that is how long he lasted after passing legislation giving him highly peronalised power) hardly constitutes an overwhelming endorsement of dictatorship from Europe's remaining nations with vastly different historical experiences. Europe has around a billion population - precisely how many people live in FRY?.

In any case - Milosevic has been rejected from the Balkans so that leaves exactly how many European dictators?


Look I'm sure that having an American point out all the little problems Europeans have isn't something you enjoy. Frankly I don't care what your problems are. America has enough of our own problems.

True

We are no better than Europe. I never said that and will never believe it. Europeans on the other hand definately feel they are better than America. Just listening to the European media cry over the latest spat of shootings over there is proof of that. And you people thought things like that only happen in America where we're all cowboys and carry guns. Silly Europeans.


You're slipping......

I'd just like to see America leave Europe and all of the rest of the places we end up fighting for someone else. I'm tired of our boys dying because some group of people somewhere else can't get along. Would that be ok for the rest of you? We'll leave since we are the scum of the earth who corrupt everything pure everywhere else and leave you to your own devices. And when the next dispute comes up and you can't get along and start another war, we'll stay out. You can go about your Ethnic cleansing and whatever else you want to do, to your hearts desire.

Full marks for oversimplifying world current affairs!


I'll just put on some popcorn and have a good laugh.

Highly offensive comment!

To sumarise - we're still missing answers to these questions:

1) how do you define this European monolith (ie. I couldn't begin to generalise about a foreign policy of 'the Asians' which is tantamount to what you are attempting here) - and how can you justify doing so?

2) You point out the inevitablility of another European war - maybe you might be able to predict where - and between whom - this conflict will occur?

3) Could you name how many wars BETWEEN EUROPEAN NATIONS - have been fought on European soil in the last ..I dunno ...50 years?

 

[Denverdog]

Ny Pomme,

Your entire response is summed up in "you're response is non-sensical". What a great response. What was it you said, "full marks for oversimplyfying"?
Never did I say anything about predicting the next war in Europe. You added that as a means of bolstering your arguement, which is weak. You complain that I didn't demonstrate which countries in have been at war. You ignored my explanation that the reason you haven't been at war was beacuse the US has been parked in your driveway for the last 60 years. You think this is a confused arguement. I'll make it real clear. "EUROPE HASN'T BEEN AT WAR BECAUSE THE BIGGEST SUPERPOWER IN THE WORLD HAS STANDING OVER YOU MAKING SURE YOU DON'T START ANOTHER ONE." Is that clear enough?
I find it interesting that you copied many aspects of my post yet you convienantly left out one of the most damning points. Answer this:

If Europeans get along so well then why do you have a permanent WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL? Maybe you should pay attention to who is standing in the dock.

I love how you carelessly answered my point about Ireland and England er.. I mean the UK. It's not ok for me to point out something that happend in 1914 but it's ok for you to reference something 300 years old. By the way, how did the UK come about? Did all of these countries voluntarily join or did the UK come about because England had it's boot on the throat of all the other smaller and weaker countries? If the UK is so great then why have the Irish risen up against you? They are still fighting you.
I loved the reference you made to Vietnam. Gee the US learned it's lesson and got out of Vietnam. Why haven't you learned yours and gotten out of Ireland?
And since your reading comprehension skills are so bad that you can't get the answer in paragraph form, I'll try and make it easier for you.

1) The European monolith are all the countries of EUROPE. You do know what countries are understood to be within the confines of Europe don't you? I had no idea schools in Europe were this bad.

2)It is inevitable beacuse history has shown it to be. You (the countries within Europe) can't get along. The fact that you haven't blown yourselves up over the last 60 years doesn't count. We've been there to stop you.

3)See #2. And if you don't get it then I can understand why you guys go to war so often. You're as thick as they come.

I'd still buy you a beer though. It would make for one hell of a good evenings arguement.

 

[Denverdog]

Quote from Pomme

"I agree with your summation of Nazi as morons. They certainly are. Any person who views one race above another is certainly a moron. I am happy that the United States finally joined the rest of world in the 1960's when they ended segregation. A little late ...but there you go!."

Gee we joined the rest of the world in the 60's huh? Seems like you have had a bit of a problem joining the rest of the world yourself.

The following was taken from Peace Pledge Online. It gives historical information about conflicts all over the World.


"In 1966 the Ulster Volunteer Force (first founded in 1913 on a pledge to take over the government of Ulster forcibly in the event of Home Rule) re-formed and declared war on the IRA.

In 1968 the period known as ‘the Troubles’ began. A banned civil rights march was broken up by the Royal Ulster Constabulary using batons; this was followed by two days of rioting. Violence escalated in 1969, including an organised armed attack by loyalists on a 4-day civil rights march from Belfast to Derry. The first deaths occurred. It was now that British troops were sent to Northern Ireland. The IRA split, and a new Provisional IRA took over the armed struggle. A bloody decade had begun.

On January 30 1972, known as Bloody Sunday, 14 unarmed civilians were killed by British paratroopers in Derry. This was followed by a series of reprisals and attacks. Direct rule from Westminster was imposed on Northern Ireland. (Though an attempt was made in 1973 to create a power-sharing executive and devolved government, this collapsed as a result of unionist strikes in 1974.)

A banned civil rights march eh? I thought it was the USA that joined the rest of the World in the 60's. And here was the United Kingdom BANNING a civil rights march in 1968. Tut tut. Shame on you UK!

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
Quote from Pomme

"I agree with your summation of Nazi as morons. They certainly are. Any person who views one race above another is certainly a moron. I am happy that the United States finally joined the rest of world in the 1960's when they ended segregation. A little late ...but there you go!."

Gee we joined the rest of the world in the 60's huh? Seems like you have had a bit of a problem joining the rest of the world yourself.

The following was taken from Peace Pledge Online. It gives historical information about conflicts all over the World.


"In 1966 the Ulster Volunteer Force (first founded in 1913 on a pledge to take over the government of Ulster forcibly in the event of Home Rule) re-formed and declared war on the IRA.

In 1968 the period known as ‘the Troubles’ began. A banned civil rights march was broken up by the Royal Ulster Constabulary using batons; this was followed by two days of rioting. Violence escalated in 1969, including an organised armed attack by loyalists on a 4-day civil rights march from Belfast to Derry. The first deaths occurred. It was now that British troops were sent to Northern Ireland. The IRA split, and a new Provisional IRA took over the armed struggle. A bloody decade had begun.

Could you stay consistently on a point - then we might be able to debate!. I used the example of segregation with strict reference to regimes endorsing racial inequality.

You have consistently made sweeping generalisations about Europeans - and cited examples from over 80 years ago to back up your point. It has been over 50 years since ANY European countries have gone to war with each other - and I genuinely don't think we will have a European war for the foreseeable future.

You seem to be blase about criticising EUROPEANS EN MASSE (as if this isn't an impossible thing to do in any case) for being in favour of dictatorship - and use the example of a smallish country (currently a democratic country in any case) as the basis for your claim.

I predicted - quite correctly - that you would feel sensitive about the issue of segregation. Of course the fact that many states weresegregated 30 odd years ago (more recently that examples you cite) doesn't make the US or her citizens advocates of aparteid! Of course that is rubbish - so please understand the offence your comments re: dictatorship, inevitability of war, and nazism cause a European.

On your other points:
With respect - I would hardly call the IRA a democratically elected body that endorses politically peaceful means to resolve disputes - is that what you are saying? For years it carried out bombing of civilian and military targets in N. Ireland and on the mainland. ie. similar means to those employed by McVeigh, the Unabomber, and the latest Sept. 11th terrorists.

Bloody Sunday = Kent State University: were either governments justified? Of course not - however thankfully these are rare occurances in civilised, democratic - and on the whole, peace-loving countries - two countries of which am I proud to say I am a citizen.

 

[Denverdog]

Originally posted by NYPomme


"Could you stay consistently on a point - then we might be able to debate!. I used the example of segregation with strict reference to regimes endorsing racial inequality."

That's a total lie. You used it as a cheap shot against America because you were angry about what I had posted. Your snide comment about America "joining the rest of the world" is proof of that.

"You have consistently made sweeping generalisations about Europeans - and cited examples from over 80 years ago to back up your point. It has been over 50 years since ANY European countries have gone to war with each other - and I genuinely don't think we will have a European war for the foreseeable future."

ONCE AGAIN. The American Army has been there for the last 50 years. You do not get credit for good behavior while the teacher is standing over you to keep you under control. You keep complaining that I am going to far back to support my assertions. Maybe that should give you a hint! Stop and think about it for a second, NY Pomme. You haven't been to war in 50 years because THE AMERICAN ARMY has been camped there. The last time you (read Europe) were left alone you blew the place up. Hell you did it twice in under 40 years(1914-1939)

You seem to be blase about criticising EUROPEANS EN MASSE (as if this isn't an impossible thing to do in any case) for being in favour of dictatorship - and use the example of a smallish country (currently a democratic country in any case) as the basis for your claim."

" predicted - quite correctly - that you would feel sensitive about the issue of segregation. Of course the fact that many states weresegregated 30 odd years ago (more recently that examples you cite) doesn't make the US or her citizens advocates of aparteid! Of course that is rubbish - so please understand the offence your comments re: dictatorship, inevitability of war, and nazism cause a European."

Oh I see. Everyone else can get on here and drone on about how Americans are scum and how we butt our noses into everything but we aren't supposed to retort? How does it feel when somebody dumps on you over and over again? Now you're getting the point, NY Pomme. America sends food all over the world. We fight and die all over the world. And what do we get? A ****e pie. Maybe you should pay as much attention to the comments of non-americans about America and apply the same level of sensitivity. Maybe then you'd understand Americans better.

"On your other points:
With respect - I would hardly call the IRA a democratically elected body that endorses politically peaceful means to resolve disputes - is that what you are saying? For years it carried out bombing of civilian and military targets in N. Ireland and on the mainland. ie. similar means to those employed by McVeigh, the Unabomber, and the latest Sept. 11th terrorists."

With respect you are again avoiding the point I was making. I was pointing out that the UK was banning a CIVIL RIGHTS MARCH, something that you snidely pointed out that America didn't achieve until the 60's when we "joined the rest of the world".


"Bloody Sunday = Kent State University: were either governments justified? Of course not - however thankfully these are rare occurances in civilised, democratic - and on the whole, peace-loving countries - two countries of which am I proud to say I am a citizen.

"

Bloody Sunday, Kent State, who cares? You are consistently MISSING THE POINT. America is the one keeping the peace and we're tired of doing it! Hey why don't we do something together? You get whoever the EU president is and I'll get GW to get together for dinner. You and I will convince them what a good idea it is for America to leave Europe. We'll pull out and then you can prove to me what a nice bunch of little boys all of the European countries are. How about that? If Europe is in flames within 10 years I win. You can buy me dinner at one of those posh NY restaurants. Deal?

 

[Gabriel]

NYPomme.... I'd forget it if I were you. The guy's a d*ckhead.

 

[Brett Li]

Agreed. As a Englishman, I would have wanted to go over and bash the french. It's a good job Daddy America is watching over me, so I'm not tempted.....

 

[Hurricane75]

Originally posted by Docker_Brat


A minutes silence for 3000 Americans killed.. 15000 Turks die and nothing.

I hate the way that Americans are supposed to be treated with such reverence by the rest of the world.

Of course we should have paid respect to the Turks that died, but one thing separates these tragedies, one was a natural disaster and one was brutal Murder.

It was something that we could identify with, something closer to home because innocent lives were taken for no reason at all.

You can't generalise about a whole nation. I have some great American friends. Very kind and not arrogant. The country is fantastic, every city is different, so much to see so much to do.

I like to compare the Americans patriotism and arrogance to their country like how we support our football teams.

As a Collingwood Supporter I think:

We will win the premiership
We have the best president
The best captain
The best team
And we should take over the AFL

This doesn't mean that other teams supporters would agree with me or that anything I said is true, its just my opinion for the love of my team.

No one can change my mind about how I feel so for that you can probably call me arrogant. But thats what Americans are like, they love their country and they will talk it up. No different to us.

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND GO THE MIGHTY MAGPIES!!!!!!!!!

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
"

Bloody Sunday, Kent State, who cares? You are consistently MISSING THE POINT. America is the one keeping the peace and we're tired of doing it! Hey why don't we do something together? You get whoever the EU president is and I'll get GW to get together for dinner. You and I will convince them what a good idea it is for America to leave Europe. We'll pull out and then you can prove to me what a nice bunch of little boys all of the European countries are. How about that? If Europe is in flames within 10 years I win. You can buy me dinner at one of those posh NY restaurants. Deal?

Final chance, DenverDog:

The European Union is a political association representing the desire for the vast majority of nations (I can think of Norway and Switzerland as exceptions who have rejected Union - nations which you agree are v. unlikely to go to war) to accept common legislation on a multitude of issues......I can't see how this doesn't render war amongst these nations less likely?. The situation is analogous State vs. Federal law in 'our' country (I'm an american citizen too by the way). Most recently a great many European countries have adopted the same currency! Imagine that - the US agreeing to drop the dollar - and become 'equal partners' (imagine) with a group of other countries in the adoption of a new single currency zone. Sound like the actions of hostile neighbours? Not to me.......
......

Okay - so you're not listening. Fine - however if you travel outside the US I would try not to let anyone hear you spout this sort of stuff. It will challenge them to look beyond stereotyping all other americans they are likely to meet

This sort of remark :

The American Army has been there for the last 50 years. You do not get credit for good behavior while the teacher is standing over you to keep you under control.

is likely to get your a*$e kicked - however hopefully merely ignored!!!!!!!

Finally: You posted this:

Maybe you should pay as much attention to the comments of non-americans about America and apply the same level of sensitivity. Maybe then you'd understand Americans better.


Do me a favour - go back and check out my first post. I was the one who defended the US against 'stereotypical postings'. Funny how the you have come onto the site - and displayed a one-dimensional view. I'm very sorry no other american citizens besides you and I are here to display an understanding of world affairs beyond 'we're the teacher...if it wasn't for us you'd all be at war' type attitude. Contrary to your intention - you are the best example 'US knockers' on this thread could have had.

(Yep - I am a US citizen - and resident - and more than half my family are US nationals, residing in the USA, so just maybe I do understand Americans. Worryingly - I'm half British too - and married a french girl - so maybe I'm storing up trouble for the future when the UK goes to war with France - IGNORAMUS)

 

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by Docker_Brat
McDonalds
Nike


.. two names that spring to mind when I think about the misery theyve inflicted on the planet.

A minutes silence for 3000 Americans killed.. 15000 Turks die and nothing.

McDonalds and Nike are multi-national corporations, that they started in America is as irrelevant as the fact that Rupert Murdoch is born in Australia. You can tie whatever national attachment to a major corporation you want, but in the end they're all after the maximum profit.


As for the fact that some lives are treated with more value then others, that is a valid point. It just shows how much garbage prolifierates from the so-called 'news' outlets we are subjected to.

 

[Mead]

There is a heap of anti-american propaganda which gets thrown about- certainly in some instances I can see why people might have problems with the way the american government behaves, but beyond that i do wonder how much of it is all just tall poppy syndrome.
On a personal level, Americans can seem a tad pretentious, but are also some of the most friendly people in the world.
I concur with the previous comments about french people.. tosspots the lot of them

Incidentally, if you're looking for a fun time, try Ireland- never met an Irish person who wasn't enormously entertaining. Aussies and Irish have a lot in common- the whole Gaelic Football/ Aussie rules thing, both countries have bizarre accents which no other nation in the world can understand, both have essentially 'leisure' cultures, and by and large, both nationalities tend to have wonderful senses of humor. I've got some Irish mates at Uni, and they're the most entertaining people i've ever met- better still, frequent arguments about which nation are the true 'hard drinkers of the world' leads to frequent ****ups, which is always good.

 

[Denverdog]

Ny Pomme,

DO ME a favour. My first post had NOTHING to do with you. IF you would care to NOTICE, YOU responded to MY post. I was merely responding to the load of anti-american bs that was on the thread. Just as you had done so earlier. Look I had nothing against what you said in your first two posts. It's when you come after me with your "now, now, let's not be one dimensional attitude" that we've got a problem.
You and your Brit buddies have a hard time paying attention. You completely ignored supportive comments I made of the "UK". Probably because you can't stand for an American to talk to you the way I have. I don't need you to tell me what to say if I was in Europe. I've already been there. How patronizing can you get?
Hell if the UK and the EU are so great why are you even here in the US? You're like all of the other foriegn nationals and dual citizenship people, you're here to make a living and escape the high taxes of your so called "wonderful governments". You people aren't fooling anyone. You're the biggest bunch of hypocrits. You take advantage of our system to earn your living and you dodge your country of origins taxes.
As for my Final chance stick it up yours. You made demands that I had never put forth anyway(predict the next European war, who will it be and between whom, what the %&(* do I look like Nostradamus?!) You have repeatedly ignored the fact that for such a peaceful lot of countries it sure is odd that you hava a

WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL

permanently set up to deal with the endless amount of war crimes going on in Europe. Everytime you bring up some other point to support your side of the arguement and REFUSE to acknowlegde my FACT!
It's a good thing you live in NY buddy. There you can live in harmony with all the other liberals and never have your political ideas challenged. You want to give advice. Here's some for you. Get out of NY and go see where the rest of America lives. Get out of the big cities. Go meet real people.

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
Ny Pomme,
You and your Brit buddies have a hard time paying attention. You completely ignored supportive comments I made of the "UK". Probably because you can't stand for an American to talk to you the way I have. I don't need you to tell me what to say if I was in Europe. I've already been there. How patronizing can you get?

You were making stupid comments about European's penchant for dictatorship - I put you straight - and was hoping that you wouldn't continue to make an idiot of yourself.....(I can get more patronizing than that if you like!)

Hell if the UK and the EU are so great why are you even here in the US? You're like all of the other foriegn nationals and dual citizenship people, you're here to make a living and escape the high taxes of your so called "wonderful governments". You people aren't fooling anyone. You're the biggest bunch of hypocrits. You take advantage of our system to earn your living and you dodge your country of origins taxes.

Another sweeping generalisation regarding 'all other foreign nationals' (we're uncovering more and more about your prejudices).

Incidentally - I have expanded our 'European business' to the United States - and created employment in so doing...... Also - if you care to note - New York is a relatively high tax area (particularly NYC).

As for my Final chance stick it up yours. You made demands that I had never put forth anyway(predict the next European war, who will it be and between whom, what the %&(* do I look like Nostradamus?!) You have repeatedly ignored the fact that for such a peaceful lot of countries it sure is odd that you hava a

WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL

permanently set up to deal with the endless amount of war crimes going on in Europe. Everytime you bring up some other point to support your side of the arguement and REFUSE to acknowlegde my FACT!

Nostradumus? Ignoramus Maximus!

Knock, knock........It is the INTERNATIONAL war crimes tribunal - not the EUROPEAN WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL or are you so ignorant that you didn't know this? Boy - are you ever comforming to stereotype. Here is the website - http://www.un.org/icty/ for your edification.

It's a good thing you live in NY buddy. There you can live in harmony with all the other liberals and never have your political ideas challenged. You want to give advice. Here's some for you. Get out of NY and go see where the rest of America lives. Get out of the big cities. Go meet real people.

This comment - I can assure you - will strike most non-americans as a little odd. You seem to resent liberals in 'our' country - however the vast majority of 'our' national institutions are based on liberal principles - encapsulated in 'our' individual 'rights' and 'freedoms'. They are some of the most impressive concepts to take root in the US in my opinion (just my opinion - I realise that in your eyes I make up an evil section of the United States population (Along with - according to your post - the rest of the inhabitants of the US's largest city - hell, if you're gonna generalise about a whole continent - what the hell difference does generalising about 20 million New Yorkersn make - all of whom are 'artificial' presumably?????? ) - still there is no need to go to war about )

I must say that New York is the most cosmopolitan place in the world to my mind - I guess they are all blinkered out of touch with international differences/experiences. You'd rather I get out and canvas the opinion of the 'real' americans before the next 'twister' takes them and their Dodge RAM and dumps in the next state (I'm stereotyping here - and am, admittedly - a little tongue in cheek)

As you say - I have the disadvantage of a European education - however when I was taught political theory - it is the liberals who defend the rights of others to have a contrary opinion - as long as it does not conflict with the rights of others to do likewise. Now read your reference to liberals in your post. Are you a silly boy or were you just looking out the window at the time?!

For the record - I have been to 48 of the 50 states in the Union. By my reckoning that makes - 96% of them - and have family living in all mainland geographical regions.

Sorry to have to subject everyone else to this - if you've had enough - I'd advise you to scroll past my future posts in this thread - since I'm beginning to develop a taste for putting this idiot straight

 

[Denverdog]

NY city may be a high tax area but it's still far less than what you would pay in any European country. Plus you get far more tax writeoffs here in the US. Once again you are convienantly leaving out those facts which do not support your case. Oh and bully for you for creating more jobs. You didn't come here to America to "create jobs". You came here for profit. Just like everyone else so don't give me any crap about what a great service you are perfoming for the US. Go create jobs in Europe if that's what your goal is. Oh wait you can't make as much profit over there can you? Otherwise you'd be over there and not here.
You are the patronizing one. You assume Americans don't know that it is an International War Crimes Tribunal. No duh it's an International War Crimes Tribunal. It's been that way ever since it was formed. The rest of the World thinks Americans don't pay attention to history. And when you get into an arguement with one YOU ASSUME we don't know what we're talking about. Get stuffed Pomme ****!
Oh and as for individual rights and liberties being a liberal principle get real! Individual rights and freedoms were considered liberal principles 300 years ago when we were busy kicking your redcoat butt. Now they are firmly considered conservative values here in America. You wouldn't know that because you live in the USSNYC. I'm sorry that you think NYC is America. It's not. That's why GW is pres and not Gore.

 

[NYPomme]

...and you were doing so well.........

Boy, where do I start...... let's try at the beginning.

Originally posted by Denverdog
NY city may be a high tax area but it's still far less than what you would pay in any European country. Plus you get far more tax writeoffs here in the US. Once again you are convienantly leaving out those facts which do not support your case. Oh and bully for you for creating more jobs. You didn't come here to America to "create jobs". You came here for profit. Just like everyone else so don't give me any crap about what a great service you are perfoming for the US. Go create jobs in Europe if that's what your goal is. Oh wait you can't make as much profit over there can you? Otherwise you'd be over there and not here.

My goal is not to create jobs - where did I ever say that. A bi-product me moving to the States is that I have created employment - I pay tax - and I contribute to GDP - in a country of which I'm a citizen. However you seem to have a problem with that? Could you explain why?

You hate liberals and now you hate individuals who operate within a capitalist economic system - and seem not respect rights of citizenship. Oh dear - are you sure you are happy living in 'our' country?

Tax write-offs? You seem to be an expert on milking the system - perhaps you can give me some help on this to make sure I'm getting the maximum benefit.

You are the patronizing one.

I know ...and I'm sorry ....but someone, oh yeah...YOU wrote this: (which I believe has now been edited....however I picked it up in
quotation)

The American Army has been there for the last 50 years. You do not get credit for good behavior while the teacher is standing over you to keep you under control.

The teacher - WOW!

Let's continue - shall we?

You assume Americans don't know that it is an International War Crimes Tribunal. No duh it's an International War Crimes Tribunal. It's been that way ever since it was formed. The rest of the World thinks Americans don't pay attention to history. And when you get into an arguement with one YOU ASSUME we don't know what we're talking about. Get stuffed Pomme ****!

Pomme ****? Nice! What do mean by that?

No - I'm not attacking ALL americans for not knowing that is isn't a European War Crimes Tribunal - just you. You are the one who didn't know. If you did you wouldn't have posted this:

You have repeatedly ignored the fact that for such a peaceful lot of countries it sure is odd that you have a WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL permanently set up to deal with the endless amount of war crimes going on in Europe

The body actually resolves all international war crimes - since it is a United Nations Institution - is where the United States - plus all other international countries (with membership of the UN) handle such business (Rwanda etc.)

Oh and as for individual rights and liberties being a liberal principle get real! Individual rights and freedoms were considered liberal principles 300 years ago when we were busy kicking your redcoat butt. Now they are firmly considered conservative values here in America.

You are rewriting political history now! Individual rights and liberties are applied neutrally - that is the whole point - and have relevence across the political spectrum: conservative and radical alike.

You wouldn't know that because you live in the USSNYC.

Evidently

I'm sorry that you think NYC is America. It's not

THE EARTH IS FLAT ....I KNEW IT WAS!!!!!!!!!

That's why GW is pres and not Gore.

.....and presumably why Gore got more votes.....logically! Sorry - what is your point? Please explain?

DenverDog .....I disagree with pretty much everything you say.....but I will defend the right, until I die, for you to make a complete *** of yourself!

this said...I reckon now might be a suitable moment to apologise and leave semi-gracefully - and hope everyone forgets that you were ever here

 

[Denverdog]

Oh so now you can't support your arguement that Europeans love to fight each other so you're moving the subject to an attack on my opinions about liberal and conservative thought.
You NEVER answered my assertion that Europeans can't stop fighting without the intervention of a larger force. You have no historical proof. You consistently demand that I show where European countries have gone to war in the last 50 years when you know as well as I that the reason they haven't is because of the US Army. YOU are the one who cannot use FACT to support YOUR POSITION. THE FACT is that Europe has been under occupation since 1945. IF we ever leave then you might have a chance to use FACTS to support your position. It is YOUR problem not mine. If you refuse to acknowledge that then fine. That is typical of liberals. Ignore facts and drone on until everyone else tires of you and gives you what you want.
Your tactics in this discussion are symbolic of typical liberal thought. When you can't support your assertions you attack the other side and deflect.
You take advantage of the economic system here just as anyone else does. I don't have a problem with the capitalist system as you asserted in your last post. I'm glad we have it. The only problem is the taxes we pay are too high. I don't have a problem with your participation within our economy. Your asserting that I do is another example of your attempt to deflect the original arguement.
Oh and why do I have to explain our political system to you? I thought you were the bloody smart one. If you can't figure out how it's possible to get fewer total votes and still win the presidential election then you don't know a damn thing about the USA or the political system that you supposedly live under.
Oh and I won't get tired of argueing.

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
Oh so now you can't support your arguement that Europeans love to fight each other so you're moving the subject to an attack on my opinions about liberal and conservative thought.

I think most people got the point that war in Europe is unlikely - particularly since the advent of the European Union - which was designed SPECIFICALLY to reconcile differences through political and economic integration - rather than FORCE (as had previously been the practice) . You seem not to get this point.

Your comment 'Europeans love to fight each other' sounds particulary stupid.


You NEVER answered my assertion that Europeans can't stop fighting without the intervention of a larger force. You have no historical proof. You consistently demand that I show where European countries have gone to war in the last 50 years when you know as well as I that the reason they haven't is because of the US Army. YOU are the one who cannot use FACT to support YOUR POSITION. THE FACT is that Europe has been under occupation since 1945.

Most people would agree that United States/SU rivalry heightened the likleihood of conflict GLOBALLY during the Cold War.

I would suggest in recent history conciliatory means (economic, political, etc) continue to be more powerful messengers of peace - and are likely to be longer term than 'threat of aggression'. I guess this is precisely where you and I disagree.

I think that pretty much all European countries DO NOT mistrust their neighbours. ie. Spain/France, UK /France, Germany/Austria etc. (can't think of one - can anyone else?) - beyond this, pretty much all are now integrated (or are seeking integration) in a EUROPE WIDE political and economic union. Why is this? Because American troops are sitting there? Or do most nations have a mutual acceptance of the utility of peaceful trade, cooperation, cultural transfer (sport, travel, etc.) within European borders?

Answer this one? Do people from Arkansas still hate people from Massachusetts - and would they succede/ rekindle past disputes - if it wasn't for the greater resources/ and proven war machine of the north - or has peace exististed because they trade, have adopted of identical laws and codes have drawn these States closer together - and see themselves as part of a UNION OF STATES?

Trust me - to pretty well all Europeans - your remarks on this point will seem absolutely ridiculous.

IF we ever leave then you might have a chance to use FACTS to support your position. It is YOUR problem not mine. If you refuse to acknowledge that then fine. That is typical of liberals. Ignore facts and drone on until everyone else tires of you and gives you what you want

Completely meaningless: still retaining the anti-liberal rhetoric, I see.

Your tactics in this discussion are symbolic of typical liberal thought. When you can't support your assertions you attack the other side and deflect. You take advantage of the economic system here just as anyone else does. I don't have a problem with the capitalist system as you asserted in your last post. I'm glad we have it. The only problem is the taxes we pay are too high. I don't have a problem with your participation within our economy. Your asserting that I do is another example of your attempt to deflect the original arguement.

My arguing tactics? What are you talking about? God - you got me there!.

I'm not deflecting - I'm just uncovering 1) Gaping holes in your arguments 2) you prejudices 3) your ignorance 4) your pig-headedness!

Oh and why do I have to explain our political system to you? I thought you were the bloody smart one. If you can't figure out how it's possible to get fewer total votes and still win the presidential election then you don't know a damn thing about the USA or the political system that you supposedly live under.

I think most people got my point - I was being sarcastic - MORON!
Did you finish highschool?

Oh and I won't get tired of argueing.

Oh god.......Imagine actually meeting this guy?

 

[Denverdog]

So you admit that you have no historical proof of Europe's ability to get along without the intervention of a larger power.
Gee it was funny how you grouped the countries. Why didn't you group Germany and France together as neighbors? Why did you group the UK and France together? Could it be that the last two World Wars were the result of friction between Germany and France?
Wax on about how Europe is trying to get over their differences if you want. Germany France and England er.. the UK will always struggle for leadership within the EU. All of these countries have had major problems with the way the EU is organized. To say that the UK has gone running into the arms of the EU would be a total farce. You know as well as I how fragile the EU is. You'll deny it however. That would only weaken your arguement.

___________________________________________________
"I think most people got the point that war in Europe is unlikely - particularly since the advent of the European Union - which was designed to reconcile differences through political and economic intergration. You seem not to get this point."
___________________________________________________

And YOU seem to miss the point that all of this has been done while the US is still there with it's military might. Admit it. YOU have NO PROOF of Europe's ability to control itself when left alone. You can form all the treaties, political unions, etc. you want. The fact remains that our armies are still there.
You want to argue facts. Name the last time Europe controlled itself when a foriegn power was absent from it's territories.
Name it!

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
So you admit that you have no historical proof of Europe's ability to get along without the intervention of a larger power.
Gee it was funny how you grouped the countries. Why didn't you group Germany and France together as neighbors? Why did you group the UK and France together? Could it be that the last two World Wars were the result of friction between Germany and France?
Wax on about how Europe is trying to get over their differences if you want. Germany France and England er.. the UK will always struggle for leadership within the EU. All of these countries have had major problems with the way the EU is organized. To say that the UK has gone running into the arms of the EU would be a total farce. You know as well as I how fragile the EU is. You'll deny it however. That would only weaken your arguement.

___________________________________________________
"I think most people got the point that war in Europe is unlikely - particularly since the advent of the European Union - which was designed to reconcile differences through political and economic intergration. You seem not to get this point."
___________________________________________________

And YOU seem to miss the point that all of this has been done while the US is still there with it's military might. Admit it. YOU have NO PROOF of Europe's ability to control itself when left alone. You can form all the treaties, political unions, etc. you want. The fact remains that our armies are still there.
You want to argue facts. Name the last time Europe controlled itself when a foriegn power was absent from it's territories.
Name it!

What???? France and Germany?????? Do you honestly think that France and Germany are not fighting because the United States have troops there? Seriously?

Europe controlled itself - how can a continent control itself. When was the last time America controlled itself? what do you mean? not going to war? Name a decade since the war when America was not at war?

Okay - you ask for historical basis for my statement that war is unlikely in Europe - (let's see if we can tease this one out in the form of a question) name me how many wars have been fought between two liberal-democracies (and you can even include ones that are not part of an integrated political/economic union)? (hint: a liberal-democratic political system is a precondition for entry into Union)

 

[NYPomme]

'Taxi for Denver Dog!'

 

[Denverdog]

Admit it. You have no proof. All of your assertions about current and or future events are based upon the reality that the US Army is there.

Come on Pomme, it's easy. It's simple. Name the last time Europe was not at war without a Foriegn Occupying force there to keep the peace.

If you are so much smarter than me, then simply answer the question.

 

[NYPomme]

Originally posted by Denverdog
Admit it. You have no proof. All of your assertions about current and or future events are based upon the reality that the US Army is there.

Eh? All my assertions are based on the US Army being in Europe - what? You didn't make it through highschool did you?

Come on Pomme, it's easy. It's simple. Name the last time Europe was not at war without a Foriegn Occupying force there to keep the peace.

1918-1939 - after this time the United States - as you well know - have had bases in Europe. We clearly the disagree on the basis for a lasting peace in Europe. You favour 'threat of force' as the basis for peace - I figure it is better guaranteed by peaceful political and economic association - through the adoption of common laws, cultural/social transfer etc.
(If you wish to look at history: you find yourself in agreement with Adolf Hitler on this point, I find myself concuring with Woodrow Wilson. I agree with the American - and you with the European - IRONY INDEED).

Now answer my question: How many wars have been fought between two liberal-democracies (and you can even include ones that are not part of an integrated political/economic union)....and let's introduce a time frame...... EVER?

(hint: a liberal-democratic political system is a precondition for entry into the European Union)