Angus Graham

[partycorolla]

Cmon mate you are making a clown of yourself with that gibberish

I dont recall anyone asking for graham to be delisted or anyone saying he should be equal now to cox or sandi so to suggest so is deluded and plain wrong. Some may have suggested we try Browne or DX but certainly not to delist Gus.

The OP is comparing stats in TODAYS game with players dating back five or more years. The game has changed so much just this year with the new bench & sub rule (which will have a profound effect on rucks),just as much as it has changed in the last five years. Using silly stats to prop up an argument that Gus is comparable to some of the best rucks going around is flawed

No Prowler... Trying to compare the performance now of a ruckman who has played 37 games against the performance now of a seasoned ruckmen is flawed The only way it is possible to compare them is at a similar stage of their careers which myself, Santa and others have done. Now statistics can be interpreted differently and have been.

I think as I have stated that he is the best option we have right now. Browne is not suited to the role he would need to play in our team (as in 1st ruck doing 90% of the work) due to the new sub rules as you have cleverly pointed out. We don't know if Derickx can cut it at the level, let alone play as 1st ruck so while I don't think Gus is a star (stated earlier.... perhaps you missed it or it's in a diff thread) I contend that he is the best we have right now. He is doing a decent job considering he is a 37 game player.

If this was his output after 100 games then it may be different as he wouldn't be showing signs of improvement. But go back and look at the careers of pretty much any decent (and probably some not so decent) rucks and you will find that their output increases significantly from their first few seasons.

I hope you can understand this logical argument (may be gibberish to the unintelligent) but if you can't don't worry... ignorance is bliss.

 

[Roachy8]

the problem is how much have his stats been skewed by the pies not having a ruckman last week?

& yet they still smashed us by 70 odd points...
So how critical actually is it to have a dominant ruckman in modern footy?

 

[_RT_]

No Prowler... Trying to compare the performance now of a ruckman who has played 37 games against the performance now of a seasoned ruckmen is flawed The only way it is possible to compare them is at a similar stage of their careers which myself, Santa and others have done. Now statistics can be interpreted differently and have been.

I think as I have stated that he is the best option we have right now. Browne is not suited to the role he would need to play in our team (as in 1st ruck doing 90% of the work) due to the new sub rules as you have cleverly pointed out. We don't know if Derickx can cut it at the level, let alone play as 1st ruck so while I don't think Gus is a star (stated earlier.... perhaps you missed it or it's in a diff thread) I contend that he is the best we have right now. He is doing a decent job considering he is a 37 game player.

If this was his output after 100 games then it may be different as he wouldn't be showing signs of improvement. But go back and look at the careers of pretty much any decent (and probably some not so decent) rucks and you will find that their output increases significantly from their first few seasons.

I hope you can understand this logical argument (may be gibberish to the unintelligent) but if you can't don't worry... ignorance is bliss.

Pretty much exactly what I've tried to get across.

 

[partycorolla]

Pretty much exactly what I've tried to get across.

It honestly seems like they just don't get it RT. They want similar performance now to these other guys right now??? 37 game ruckman.... I mean talk about lack of understanding of big men development patterns...

And who the hell do we put in there instead? And if he's so crap and can't win anything, then why don't our midfielders just start roving to the other rucks??

Loved your point Roachy.... but it can't hurt to have a dominant ruckman like Cox, Sandi or Jolly.... maybe we've got one but he hasn't developed into that yet? Sort of like those guys in their first few years....

 

[TheProwler]

It honestly seems like they just don't get it RT. They want similar performance now to these other guys right now??? 37 game ruckman.... I mean talk about lack of understanding of big men development patterns...

And who the hell do we put in there instead? And if he's so crap and can't win anything, then why don't our midfielders just start roving to the other rucks??

Loved your point Roachy.... but it can't hurt to have a dominant ruckman like Cox, Sandi or Jolly.... maybe we've got one but he hasn't developed into that yet? Sort of like those guys in their first few years....

No no no no its you who doesnt get it. Take your head out of your silly stats book for a moment and acually watch how this bloke plays and that will tell you a hell of a lot more than some stupid stat. I couldn't give a toss about stats but if you must use them compare player A vs player B at the same time and not how a bloke was five years ago at a similar age as to much has changed in the game in this time, thus silly stats. Also what about the coaching group, the best opportunity for development, injury history the fact of whether they are number 1 ruck or 2nd ruck etc....... these things all have contributing factors to the silly stats and need to be taken into account before you can compare two players.

You would be one of those blokes at the footy who writes down every number when a player scores a goal etc in the footy record while the rest of us actually watch the game

 

[santa claws]

Stop ignoring the question Santa... you muppet... who is the replacement for him right here right now? It's all whinge whinge whinge from you with absolutely nothing in the way of a solution. As the saying goes Santa, if your not part of the solution you're part of the problem.... So who on our list right now would do a better job, week in week out. Anybody with a modicum of brain power (ask your cousin) would know that Gus is not only the best answer right now.... but he is the only answer right now. Blame anyone.... Plough, Jackson, Miller, I couldn't give a proverbial.... but the they are the facts. WE HAVE NO-ONE BETTER.... accept it, it is a fact. The fact that we have a 37 gamer heading up our ruck division is a reflection on who Santa??? FFS... grow up, accept that this is the real question and we can get on with it... until then you will get no credibility from me or any other supporter with a clue.

question did you ask a question sheesh i must have missed it. nope i dont think so i dont see a question from you directed at me anywhere.
apart from the above post which if you had the courtesy to read peoples posts carefully when engaging in debate you would see has been more than adequately covered and answered i believe.
sheesh you stats guys must really respect the stats you use to use such a narrow block of games. that are clearly compromised by the fact hes played against other sides second stringers.

you must be desperate to be so obtuse when saying its stupid to compare graham to cox sandilands jolly of today.
i dont see one poster on this thread comparing graham to those players of today. what i do see is posters comparing grahams first 4 yrs with those blokes first 4 yrs and he does not hold a candle to them in so many areas and not just stats. sheesh his first 4 yrs doesnt even compare to mark blakes first 4 yrs. to date graham has been extraordinarily ordinary.

no you go back to defending players based on a block of 4 games and your stats.

me i will call for other options to be used and yes i know you cant see it but we do have other options and yes it may mean we take a step backwards.
if you had shown just a little bit of respect for others opinions and had the decency to actually read what others have written you would not have had the need to ask stupid questions.

 

[santa claws]

1/It honestly seems like they just don't get it RT. They want similar performance now to these other guys right now??? 37 game ruckman.... I mean talk about lack of understanding of big men development patterns...

2/ And who the hell do we put in there instead? And if he's so crap and can't win anything, then why don't our midfielders just start roving to the other rucks??

3/Loved your point Roachy.... but it can't hurt to have a dominant ruckman like Cox, Sandi or Jolly.... maybe we've got one but he hasn't developed into that yet? :

1/ show one post in this thread where that comparison has been made.

2/ i believe that has been answered several times but you dont want to hear.
was dave astbury the best option/player we had to play chb last yr.i dont think so yet we gave him 17 games.

3/ and thats it. some of us dont believe graham has any more improvement and will never get anywhere near a cox jolly etc. hence the call to play others who we hope just maybe will in time become a decent first ruckman.

 

[Cathal Brugha]

By the end of this year all will be revealed.

 

[tigerfansince86]

He has shown he can compete, but we need a natural footballer someone more mobile, athletic and who has some co-ordination.

 

[santa claws]

RT you start a thread, when someoe comes on and says hey thats not right or has a different opinion you spend the next 60 pages trying to justify your OP then you try and deflect, read all your posts in this thread and try and do that in the third person and see what conclusions you make.

Claws is absoloutely right on this yet you seem to be telling us otherwise.....sheeesh.

goal posts are for moving for some. i think old rt has been debating old rasor too much.

 

[_RT_]

i dont see one poster on this thread comparing graham to those players of today. what i do see is posters comparing grahams first 4 yrs with those blokes first 4 yrs and he does not hold a candle to them in so many areas and not just stats. sheesh his first 4 yrs doesnt even compare to mark blakes first 4 yrs. to date graham has been extraordinarily ordinary.

Who has compared Grahams career stats to those of Cox Sandilands and co? Certainly wasn't me, in fact I'm pretty sure it was you who brought up what Cox Sandilands and co did back when they were Sandilands and yet you suggest that I'm the one who is moving the goalposts.

As I have said a couple of time already, all this thread is designed to do is show that when compared to the other YOUNG ruckmen in the comp THIS YEAR, Graham is travelling as well as every other young ruckman is. Its only the 10 year veterans in Cox Sandilands & co that are truly dominating and yet you repeatedly claim that Graham with 37 games of experience should be out there dominating.

goal posts are for moving for some. i think old rt has been debating old rasor too much.

Who moved the goal posts? I produced stats to discuss how Graham is travelling this year, you're the one who brought up how Cox Sandilands and Jolly were performing 5+ years ago. Wonder why you did that?

 

[NQTIGER]

Who has compared Grahams career stats to those of Cox Sandilands and co? Certainly wasn't me, in fact I'm pretty sure it was you who brought up what Cox Sandilands and co did back when they were Sandilands and yet you suggest that I'm the one who is moving the goalposts.

As I have said a couple of time already, all this thread is designed to do is show that when compared to the other YOUNG ruckmen in the comp THIS YEAR, Graham is travelling as well as every other young ruckman is. Its only the 10 year veterans in Cox Sandilands & co that are truly dominating and yet you repeatedly claim that Graham with 37 games of experience should be out there dominating.



Who moved the goal posts? I produced stats to discuss how Graham is travelling this year, you're the one who brought up how Cox Sandilands and Jolly were performing 5+ years ago. Wonder why you did that?

Exactly RT you produced stats inferring that he was travelling ok, as i asked in my original post , is there a stat for falling over your own feet , he would be leading that.

The game has changed stats mean jack shit, 25 possesions was a superb game 5 years ago, today its meh.

When was the last time he laid a shepherd or a block?

 

[_RT_]

Exactly RT you produced stats inferring that he was travelling ok, as i asked in my original post , is there a stat for falling over your own feet , he would be leading that.

The game has changed stats mean jack shit, 25 possesions was a superb game 5 years ago, today its meh.

When was the last time he laid a shepherd or a block?

Graham has 10 1%ers this year, which is blocks shepherds & spoils. Cox has 11 Sandilands 4 Mumford 14 Jamar 7 Warnock 6 Leuenberger 12 Bellchambers 7 Ottens 15 Renouf 14 & McEvoy 17. But hey I bet there will be some reason why Grahams effort isn't good enough.

As for falling over his own feet, bringing that up is just another example of how the occassional stuff up by whipping boys, like Graham, get blown out of proportion.

With regards the stats meaning jackshit in some regards I agree with you, but for the purposes of this discussion I think they are quite valid. As mentioned a number of posters on here believe that Graham is performing poorly, yet when you look at the numbers he is putting up he is doing just as well as what other young ruckmen are. Yet these guys get talked up as being far superior to Graham because they appear to have a great physical presence or impact on games.

How are you supposed to discuss that claim without bringing statistics into the discussion. As shown Graham is the leading tackler amongst ruckmen and as I've just shown is right amongst it when it comes to 1%ers. On top of that he is averaging as many touches, taken as many marks, kicked as many goals and had as many hitouts as all the other young ruckmen and yet people still continue to suggest that he simply isn't good enough.

It would be interesting to see how people would react if someone like Warnock or Mumford or McEvoy were playing for us instead of Graham. Would people be talking up their performances as really showing something or would they be ripping into them like they do Graham because in all honesty I don't think they have shown that much more than Graham has so far.

 

[rammbo]

angus needs to toughen up how many times do you see him writhing in pain wen he gets a small hit its pretty weak i say i suggest we give him a few sessions in front of a bowling machine

 

[partycorolla]

No no no no its you who doesnt get it. Take your head out of your silly stats book for a moment and acually watch how this bloke plays and that will tell you a hell of a lot more than some stupid stat. I couldn't give a toss about stats but if you must use them compare player A vs player B at the same time and not how a bloke was five years ago at a similar age as to much has changed in the game in this time, thus silly stats. Also what about the coaching group, the best opportunity for development, injury history the fact of whether they are number 1 ruck or 2nd ruck etc....... these things all have contributing factors to the silly stats and need to be taken into account before you can compare two players.

You would be one of those blokes at the footy who writes down every number when a player scores a goal etc in the footy record while the rest of us actually watch the game

Prowler, you crack me up. First of all, I don't need a stats book, it's a little thing called the internet. It can be quite useful for doing what we can't adequately do.... compare a player now with a player 5 years ago who has turned out to be good...or bad now. I certainly agree with you that stats aren't the be all and end all but you must admit that comments from certain people such as he falls over all the time are clearly not particularly helpful either. If we are all being very honest, it would have to be said that it is really really hard to compare 2 people from as you indicated 'different eras' (5 years lot has changed type comment). My main contention is that Gus has played 37 games (yes that's a stat but I think you'll have to accept it as fact) and history tells us big men take longer to develop. So final judgements shouldn't be made until at least another 30-40 games.

Secondly, I love your comment re the scores. Not a lot happens after a goal, a player or 2 runs off the ground. One boundary umpire runs a few metres, passes it to another boundary umpire who runs it back to the central umpire. The players in the middle usually have a short conference about the next ruck contest and then between 30-45 seconds after the all clear is given for the goal, play recommences. So there you go, don't feel bad about putting the scores in your record. It'll be good for your kids or your memories one day.

I bet you are one of those people who only looks at the 5 metres around the ball and have no understanding of why players are or are not where you think they would be or why a certain player has 30 metres of space. It's ok, that would put you in the majority (and like people who only watch the game on tv, where they rarely give you decent shots about what is happening outside of the immediate contest). And that's fine.... ignorance can be bliss for you.

 

[partycorolla]

angus needs to toughen up how many times do you see him writhing in pain wen he gets a small hit its pretty weak i say i suggest we give him a few sessions in front of a bowling machine

Except for the bowling machine thing... yeah. I do tend to agree with you

 

[partycorolla]

1/ show one post in this thread where that comparison has been made.

2/ i believe that has been answered several times but you dont want to hear.
was dave astbury the best option/player we had to play chb last yr.i dont think so yet we gave him 17 games.

3/ and thats it. some of us dont believe graham has any more improvement and will never get anywhere near a cox jolly etc. hence the call to play others who we hope just maybe will in time become a decent first ruckman.

The names provided are all over the thread Santa.... the stats you, RT me and everybody else are using are comparing their output. Some now, some from years ago (relative to age etc). Astbury didn't play CHB last year.... so good point. Unless you want to run Browne on a wing? Or maybe Vickery is being developed which is why he is playing forward/ruck. If this is the case you should be stoked. Although this also means that they consider Gus the best 1st Ruck option we have this year.... which I believe I have said somewhere. You can trawl through pages each time you post.... I just get on with it.

But hey Santa.... let me summarise for you my point and then you can summarise yours.

Me: I think Gus is our best option as 1st Ruck in 2011. I also think for a 37 game ruckman he is developing ok. Using available stats, he is progressing at a similar rate (statistically) to other ruckmen in the league who are generally considered to be good. Please note here Santa, I am not saying he is going better or in fact ever will be better than those other rucks. I think it is too early to make those sort of calls (ie he is a dud/he is a gun etc) and we will know far more definitively after he has played another 30 - 40 games. I believe in 2011 we don't have a better option. I am concerned about his lack of physicality at times and his tank (I think the coaching staff should handle his minutes better and give Vickery a bigger load than he has in the ruck). I think that's about it for now. I am truly sorry if I offended you in any way. I await your contention. Please don't provide any rebuttal until the end of your contention. Cheers

 

[CallMeAl]

(and like people who only watch the game on tv, where they rarely give you decent shots about what is happening outside of the immediate contest). And that's fine.... ignorance can be bliss for you.

So true, so true.

You get a better understanding of whats happening around the ball though.

Two different perspectives, for sure.

 

[santa claws]

Its interesting to look back over the careers of guys like Sandilands Cox Jolly Jamar & Hudson and see that it took these guys until they had played at least 60-100 games before they started putting up the types of numbers that Graham is currently averaging this year.

Now I'm not suggesting that Graham is going to be better than what these guys have been, more that as a young ruckman I believe that Graham is progressing quite nicely and is showing some real promising signs for the future.

who was it who first bought up opposition ruckmen.

my argument is you base your whole argument on a block of 4 games where gus has only played against second stringers. i also argue strongly and correctly that gus grahams first 4 yrs does not stack up against most of those you mention.

i also contend that despite reasonable stats this yr graham has been very ordinary in areas that stats just dont show up. yep despite the stats many of us contend hes been ordinary this yr.

as usual you attempt to pump up the tyres of a player based solely on stats and to compound the effort you try to pump him up over a 4 game effort which has been shown not to be the norm.
graham is no skinny kid. he is 201cm 106kg and 24 yrs of age. as someone else said he is one of the biggest blokes in the comp yet he plays like a girl.
i would hazard a guess and say nearly all ruckmen so far this yr despite poorer stats would have had a far bigger influnce on games than graham.

i watched a little of the gc game today sheesh you would take smith in front of graham any day of the week despite your stats. bloody hell id take josh fraser in front of graham despite your stats.

yep gus gets to play nm minus mcintosh. he could not have gotten an easier start to the season.
no kruezer no gardiner no jolly no mcintosh and played mainly against a developing ruck in renouf whos two yrs younger and smaller.

i will say again stats schmats they mean jack unless you include the whole.

 

[TheProwler]

If we are all being very honest, it would have to be said that it is really really hard to compare 2 people from as you indicated 'different eras' (5 years lot has changed type comment)

Good to see you are honest and understand how silly it is to compare players in different time periods

Secondly, I love your comment re the scores. Not a lot happens after a goal, a player or 2 runs off the ground. One boundary umpire runs a few metres, passes it to another boundary umpire who runs it back to the central umpire. The players in the middle usually have a short conference about the next ruck contest and then between 30-45 seconds after the all clear is given for the goal, play recommences. So there you go, don't feel bad about putting the scores in your record. It'll be good for your kids or your memories one day.

What about the 5 seconds between kick ins champ? By the time you scratch down the score in the record several possessions have occured. But atleast you have a good memory for your kid one day

I bet you are one of those people who only looks at the 5 metres around the ball and have no understanding of why players are or are not where you think they would be or why a certain player has 30 metres of space. It's ok, that would put you in the majority (and like people who only watch the game on tv, where they rarely give you decent shots about what is happening outside of the immediate contest). And that's fine.... ignorance can be bliss for you

Well champ unfortunately I only get to see the tiges once per year (there is a stat for you)on avg so I have to rely on the box for coverage. Bag me if it makes you feel better but I am certainly not ignorant or stuck in a world of stat counting like some.

 

[partycorolla]

Good to see you are honest and understand how silly it is to compare players in different time periods



What about the 5 seconds between kick ins champ? By the time you scratch down the score in the record several possessions have occured. But atleast you have a good memory for your kid one day



Well champ unfortunately I only get to see the tiges once per year (there is a stat for you)on avg so I have to rely on the box for coverage. Bag me if it makes you feel better but I am certainly not ignorant or stuck in a world of stat counting like some.

1 game a year and you try to tell me I don't know what's happening at the game. Watching through the ad breaks must be difficult.... Please spare me. I know all I need to know about your ability to watch a game now.... A being the operative word. Stat counting..... no that's not me.... perhaps stat reading.... there there, you are getting confused. Oh and 5 secs between kick ins. They can happen a lot quicker than that.... but you shouldn't miss much. Writing a point in your record shouldn't take that long. Do you use a record at home? Seems a bit pointless really...

 

[Rayzorwire]

But when was the last time he tapped down to one of our mids to make a clean break from a stoppage? When was the last time he grabbed a big pack mark?

The best play of the week from our last game went: Graham 10m hitout to 10 o'clock at Cotchin's feet on the burst, Cotchin's scrubby kick bounces short of the contest 25m out, Martin palms the ball hard downwards into the turf, gets it back and snaps the goal.

Terrific goal Wallaby, maybe one of the best of the season, and it started with one of the best hitouts of the season. They played it right through from 2-3 angles as the play of the week on one of the Foxtel shows this week, the overhead angle is magic.

He doesn't make decisive plays - right now. Hopefully, that will change.

^^I beg to differ, and there's plenty of others you're missing.

should graham have done well against carlton, or stkilda or collingwood even hawthorn of course he should have he should have dominated but he didnt.the context there is he in the main played against second stringers yet failed in many areas.

You've wanted us to recruit or trade for at least three (Hampson, Renouf, Wood), perhaps four (can't quite remember on Warnock) of the "second stringers" you say Graham "should have dominated" Claude...how exactly do we get from years of you moaning that Graham will never get near all these gun rucks you've wanted us to bring in, to you expecting him to dominate them?

Surely that doesn't make sense...even in your head?

All the years you kept hollering about how we should have got these "2nd string" rucks, now you can't even concede that a bloke coming from much further back than all of them is doing just as well and that if you were our list manager, you would have wasted at least one draft pick on three, maybe four of the camels above who are no better than Graham even at this early stage of his development.

i also contend that despite reasonable stats this yr graham has been very ordinary in areas that stats just dont show up.

Pesky statisticians, refusing to wear santa goggles and only write down Graham's mistakes.

It's an outrage.

 

[tugga]

I am enjoying the robust discussion here without seeing anyone resort to fighting in the gutter.
Keep it up.

 

[partycorolla]

who was it who first bought up opposition ruckmen.

my argument is you base your whole argument on a block of 4 games where gus has only played against second stringers. i also argue strongly and correctly that gus grahams first 4 yrs does not stack up against most of those you mention.

i also contend that despite reasonable stats this yr graham has been very ordinary in areas that stats just dont show up. yep despite the stats many of us contend hes been ordinary this yr.

as usual you attempt to pump up the tyres of a player based solely on stats and to compound the effort you try to pump him up over a 4 game effort which has been shown not to be the norm.
graham is no skinny kid. he is 201cm 106kg and 24 yrs of age. as someone else said he is one of the biggest blokes in the comp yet he plays like a girl.
i would hazard a guess and say nearly all ruckmen so far this yr despite poorer stats would have had a far bigger influnce on games than graham.

i watched a little of the gc game today sheesh you would take smith in front of graham any day of the week despite your stats. bloody hell id take josh fraser in front of graham despite your stats.

yep gus gets to play nm minus mcintosh. he could not have gotten an easier start to the season.
no kruezer no gardiner no jolly no mcintosh and played mainly against a developing ruck in renouf whos two yrs younger and smaller.

i will say again stats schmats they mean jack unless you include the whole.

Was this to me Santa?

I think Graham's stats this season would be similar to last season's except his hitouts are probably higher and tackles also.... but whatever.

So if his stats stayed at a similar level throughout the season, you would agree that his progress (not his ability per se) is similar to others mentioned in a statistical sense? I'm not talking about ability here.

I'm not trying to say whether he will 'make it' or not just. I think I mentioned what I think his weaknesses are and after 30-40 games more I think we'll have enough evidence to see if he has or has not addressed those areas of weakness. Also Santa, I stated that I think Gus is the best (if not the only) suitable candidate for first ruck in 2011 for reasons I mentioned earlier. You haven't given me your thoughts on this. Or his weaknesses as you perceive them to be.

If that wasn't to me, oops, feel free to disregard!!

 

[partycorolla]

So true, so true.

You get a better understanding of whats happening around the ball though.

Two different perspectives, for sure.

That's why I always do both. I go to the game, tape the game and then re watch it through the week.... Can be a painful couple of hours reliving it sometimes