Anthony Albanese - How long? -3-

[Crankyhawk]

It’s interesting and leaves it largely open to interpretation of a judge.

Just seems like dangerous territory for people on either sides of politics.

most law only gets clarified once judges get involved. And lawyers will profit

 

[The Punter]

most law only gets clarified once judges get involved. And lawyers will profit

And IIRC AG Rowland did say that this will be decided by the courts through testing.

 

[10571z]

A country is not a person though. A country is not ethnic; and if you are an Australian burning an Australian flag I'd say that you are also promoting hatred towards yourself and hence no longer subject to hate speech law (it says to another person or persons, but if you are part of that group)
It also talks about a national ethnic origin and so criticism of the actions of a country (eg Russia invading Ukraine and someone burns the Russian flag) would not be reasonably seen as promoting hatred of Yulia who runs the local russian bakery. Now if the same person then went and vandalised Julias shop, screaming Russians out you murderous orc swine then that would be covered by the hate law.

Yep that could potentially be correct and Australian cannot “hate speech” themselves.

I’d be interested to see what a lawyer would say.

 

[GrayRanga]

I mean it’s well publicised it happened so I’m not sure why I’d report it.

I’m simply discussing it in terms with the new laws, will people be arrested for it in the future.

Noticed that you haven't addressed the question of what legislation in Australia would result in a person being charged, let alone convicted of an offence, by burning any flag in Australia.

Unless of course, it was in the open on a day declared as a day of Total Fire Ban

Typical of you

If if it is not illegal under statute or precedence, everything is else is legal

 

[10571z]

Noticed that you haven't addressed the question of what legislation in Australia would result in a person being charged, let alone convicted of an offence, by burning any flag in Australia.

Unless of course, it was in the open on a day declared as a day of Total Fire Ban

Typical of you

If if it is not illegal under statute or precedence, everything is else is legal

I was referring in regards to the new hate speech laws that haven’t literally just been introduced….

 

[JackOutback]

So how exactly is burning a flag not hate speech? Genuine question.

You bang on endlessly that 'free speech' is under threat then come in here crying that burning a flag should be banned under hate speech laws. Turns out you're not in favour of free speech, just banning speech you don't like and being free to be hateful to people you don't like. I'd say your hypocrisy is surprising but it absolutely is not.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Noticed that you haven't addressed the question of what legislation in Australia would result in a person being charged, let alone convicted of an offence, by burning any flag in Australia.

Unless of course, it was in the open on a day declared as a day of Total Fire Ban

Typical of you

If if it is not illegal under statute or precedence, everything is else is legal

No I think the question is fair as to whether under the new hate speech laws whether this action could be hate speech

 

[10571z]

You bang on endlessly that 'free speech' is under threat then come in here crying that burning a flag should be banned under hate speech laws. Turns out you're not in favour of free speech, just banning speech you don't like and being free to be hateful to people you don't like. I'd say your hypocrisy is surprising but it absolutely is not.

Hahahaah, My lord. You are easily triggered. Take a breath and actually try and understand the conversation.

Where did I “cry”

Where did I say “it should be banned”

I simply asked how is it not hate speech?

Albos laws will affect both sides of the political spectrum as I am discussing here.

If Israel nukes Palestine tonight and wipes the entire population and Palestinian Australians take to the streets burning Israel’s flags do you think they deserve jail time? I don’t…

As I said above I don’t believe an Indigenous man deserves jail time for burning the flag but these laws could potentially be interpreted this way.

Try and keep up.

 

[Festerz]

Interesting. President Macron's legislation (based on Australia's) to ban social media for under 15s has just passed France's National Assembly. Laws could take effect by September if passed by the Senate (just like in Australia that is easier said than done with vocal opposition to the proposed ban from several groups).

Edit: Translated to English.

 

[RCAB]

• the person engages in conduct in a public place
• the person engages in the conduct intending to either: promote or incite hatred of another person or persons because of their race, colour or national ethnic origin; or disseminate ideas of superiority over or hatred of another person or group of persons because of their race, colour or national ethnic origin
• the conduct would, in all the circumstances, cause a reasonable person who is the target, or a member of the target group, to be intimidated, to fear harassment or violence, or to fear for their safety

I’d imagine one could easily argue it fits within that description.

Understanding the federal government’s proposed hate speech laws - Law Society Journal

The impact on free speech of a proposed suite of Commonwealth legislative amendments to combat antisemitism, hate and extremism, is being widely debated.

lsj.com.au

Would a reasonable member of the target group, in all circumstances, fear violence, harassment, or for their safety?

Burning a flag during a protest does not plausibly meet that threshold without additional conduct.

It might if it was in conjunction with adding death threats to a protected group or outside a place of worship or cultural centre, to name a few examples.

Burning a flag on its own would not meet the legal thresholds for indictment of hate speech, the Australian flag is not a protected class.

 

[Gralin]

Hahahaah, My lord. You are easily triggered. Take a breath and actually try and understand the conversation.

Where did I “cry”

Where did I say “it should be banned”

I simply asked how is it not hate speech?

Albos laws will affect both sides of the political spectrum as I am discussing here.

If Israel nukes Palestine tonight and wipes the entire population and Palestinian Australians take to the streets burning Israel’s flags do you think they deserve jail time? I don’t…

As I said above I don’t believe an Indigenous man deserves jail time for burning the flag but these laws could potentially be interpreted this way.

Try and keep up.

your framing wasn't

could it be

would this new law consider it so

your framing was

how is this not

as in you had already decided it was

you also did this without any context

 

[10571z]

Interesting. President Macron's legislation (based on Australia's) to ban social media for under 15s has just passed France's National Assembly. Laws could take effect by September if passed by the Senate (just like in Australia that is easier said than done with vocal opposition to the proposed ban from several groups).

Edit: Translated to English.


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I’d be surprised if most countries don’t follow. Basically they’ll have an identity for every social media account created from the day they bring it in onwards.

 

[Gralin]

which very much feels like you're hiding behind the its not me its the laws things now that you've gotten some pressure to explain yourself 10571z

 

[10571z]

which very much feels like you're hiding behind the its not me its the laws things now that you've gotten some pressure to explain yourself 10571z

No, I’m genuinely curious at how these laws will be interpreted nothing more.

Like I said they could be dangerous for people on either side of the political spectrum depending on the government narrative they want to enforce.

 

[Gralin]

No, I’m genuinely curious at how these laws will be interpreted nothing more.

Like I said they could be dangerous for people on either side of the political spectrum depending on the government narrative they want to enforce.

yeah see my previous post

you did not frame this as a question or discussion around the new laws until you got push back

 

[10571z]

Would a reasonable member of the target group, in all circumstances, fear violence, harassment, or for their safety?

Burning a flag during a protest does not plausibly meet that threshold without additional conduct.

It might if it was in conjunction with adding death threats to a protected group or outside a place of worship or cultural centre, to name a few examples.

Burning a flag on its own would not meet the legal thresholds for indictment of hate speech, the Australian flag is not a protected class.

Interesting, I’m not so sure though. I suppose until we see how it’s enforced in real time we won’t know exactly how they’ll set the precedents.

 

[10571z]

yeah see my previous post

you did not frame this as a question or discussion around the new laws until you got push back

Ok sure, I mean that wasn’t my intention.

 

[JackOutback]

No, I’m genuinely curious at how these laws will be interpreted nothing more.

Like I said they could be dangerous for people on either side of the political spectrum depending on the government narrative they want to enforce.

Just asking questions, right? As a centrist, right?

 

[Gralin]

Just asking questions, right? As a centrist, right?

If only there were any hate speech related charges in the news that such a concerned poster could talk about

Police allege man charged with hate speech at Sydney protest has links to disbanded neo-Nazi group

Brandan Koschel was denied bail after appearing virtually before the court on Tuesday on charges of publicly inciting hatred on the grounds of race

www.theguardian.com

Or you know why isn't he asking if throwing an IED into a protest crowd is hate speech

Perth man charged with ‘intent to harm’ after alleged homemade bomb thrown at Invasion Day rally

Noongar elder Herbert Bropho was addressing the crowd at the ‘terrifying’ moment alleged device landed on stage

www.theguardian.com

 

[10571z]

Just asking questions, right? As a centrist, right?

I mean it’s an Albo thread and I’m speaking about laws he has introduced.

Pretty major shake up to how our society operates

 

[MarcMaverick]

Interesting. President Macron's legislation (based on Australia's) to ban social media for under 15s has just passed France's National Assembly. Laws could take effect by September if passed by the Senate (just like in Australia that is easier said than done with vocal opposition to the proposed ban from several groups).

Edit: Translated to English.


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Sounds like he's worried that Le Pen, or her ilk e.g. Jordan Bardella, might be more popular with the youth of France, ergo the ban.

 

[10571z]

If only there were any hate speech related charges in the news that such a concerned poster could talk about

View attachment 2516811

Police allege man charged with hate speech at Sydney protest has links to disbanded neo-Nazi group

Brandan Koschel was denied bail after appearing virtually before the court on Tuesday on charges of publicly inciting hatred on the grounds of race

www.theguardian.com

Or you know why isn't he asking if throwing an IED into a protest crowd is hate speech

View attachment 2516812

Perth man charged with ‘intent to harm’ after alleged homemade bomb thrown at Invasion Day rally

Noongar elder Herbert Bropho was addressing the crowd at the ‘terrifying’ moment alleged device landed on stage

www.theguardian.com

I’d imagine throwing an explosive device on stage is a bit more serious than hate speech, that’s terrorism.

As for the other one any idea of the comments?

 

[Gralin]

I’d imagine throwing an explosive device on stage is a bit more serious than hate speech, that’s terrorism.

funnily enough hasn't been charged with terrorism at all currently

not really front pages news either

As for the other one any idea of the comments?

he's been charged under the new legislation with making antisemitic comments but they've not been published that I've seen

he's been refused bail and his lawyer argued that he wasn't dangerous as the NSN had been disbanded last week so he had "no active affiliations to any known hate groups" guess that's why they publicly disbanded to try and get around that part of it

but he's your first actual test of these new laws that I've seen and you've said nothing about it at all

 

[JackOutback]

I’d imagine throwing an explosive device on stage is a bit more serious than hate speech, that’s terrorism.

As for the other one any idea of the comments?

Thought you'd be all over it, like the flag burning, given your high level of concern.

 

[RCAB]

Interesting, I’m not so sure though. I suppose until we see how it’s enforced in real time we won’t know exactly how they’ll set the precedents.

You're not sure, I am. I told you why. I'll add that Australian courts wouldn't wait for some arbitrary enforcement to set the threshold. Between the statutory wording, the reasonable person test and the implied freedom of political communication, it would almost certainly be thrown out in court.


That’s why we haven’t seen one yet even under our existing vilification laws.