Discussion Are we being honest thread

[Squizz]

Whilst I think we're a good show of knocking off the Swans in another dreadful spectacle on Saturday night, I am a little worried about the season ahead and am happy to be set straight!

1. I cannot see that Kosi is the answer at FF except against weaker opponents, nor that we have anyone who can slot in if he is struggling aside from BJ and Sam F who don't seem likely to play there.
2. We still don't appear to have enough goalkicking midfielders.
3. Our conversion from set shots has been god awful - any reason this will change?
4. Who is going to play full-back on the Franklins and Fevolas post-Max?
5. Do we still have too many injury prone players on our list - Gardi, X, Kosi, Schneider, Ball, Goose, and Woody (along with Max, Lenny, Bakes, and Seany D who have more recent set-backs?).
6. Whilst happy to have Begley and Ray on the list for extra running power, do we now have field kicking issues all over the ground? A number of our better players would not have accurate 45m passes on their CV.
7. Monty, Dal and Grammy - are they going to play to their ability in 2009?

Whilst I'd be disappointed not to make the 8, are we really a top 4 candidate if all the other teams have improved?

BTW - would prefer that opposition supporters restrain their thoughts for the main board i.e. I am not looking for your feedback.

 

[Plugger35]

I think they are all pretty valid concerns Squizzy. I think if everything goes right for us, injury wise, form wise etc. we are definitely a top 8 prospect and possibly top 4 again. Unfortunately though I'm not sure we have enough improvement in us this year to realistically challenge the top echelon of teams, ie. Geelong and Hawthorn. The main areas of concern are probably the midfield and goal kicking power, and is where we fall short compared to teams like Geelong and Hawthorn.

Our forward line is still too reliant on Riewoldt and Milne for the bulk of our goals and I can't see Kosi being anything more than an occasional contributor at full forward. I think Kosi is much better suited to a floating ruck/forward role rather than as an out and out key forward, so we need to look at developing other more reliable avenues to goal.

In the midfield we probably still lack the depth and quality of a Geelong or Hawthorn. Hopefully by rotating players like Gram, Goddard, Ray etc through the midfield we can improve in this area and also add a bit more goalkicking power. Obviously Harvey is a big loss though, not just for his elite running power but for the quality of his disposal skills. Hard to replace that sort of quality overnight, obviously someone like Cousins would have helped in this area but unfortunately that bird has flown now.

As for our defence, I think it is still pretty good at full strength but I guess if you take out one of Hudghton or Fisher we may have problems, so we need to develop some decent back up in this area.

The good news is that Lyon appears to be aware of our defiencies and is putting plans in place to fix them. How successful he is remains to be seen I guess. Although he has already improved our injury management significantly from the Thomas era, which is one big plus.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Whilst I think we're a good show of knocking off the Swans in another dreadful spectacle on Saturday night, I am a little worried about the season ahead and am happy to be set straight!

1. I cannot see that Kosi is the answer at FF except against weaker opponents, nor that we have anyone who can slot in if he is struggling aside from BJ and Sam F who don't seem likely to play there. This is going to be tough no doubt about it. However the positive I see is that Kosi will be left down there, so some improvement will occur. He can still take a great contested grab and even if he can bring the ball to the deck it allows Milne and Schneider to get busy, at the very least he's a tall target which will straighten us up.
2. We still don't appear to have enough goalkicking midfielders. This point can't really be looked at until the season starts. It's important to keep in mind though that a majority of midfielders kick their goals whilst resting forward and their forwards have a run on the ball. Milne is obviously a stay at home forward and ditto Schneider, so this is part of the reason.
3. Our conversion from set shots has been god awful - any reason this will change? The ability is there, look at the semi final win over Collingwood. This is all about mental application.
4. Who is going to play full-back on the Franklins and Fevolas post-Max? We're lucky to have had Max. Most sides don't have a player who can handle either of these blokes, let alone blanket them like Maxy.
5. Do we still have too many injury prone players on our list - Gardi, X, Kosi, Schneider, Ball, Goose, and Woody (along with Max, Lenny, Bakes, and Seany D who have more recent set-backs?) That's always going to be a lingering issue but last year proved that we are heading in the right direction as Plugger said.
6. Whilst happy to have Begley and Ray on the list for extra running power, do we now have field kicking issues all over the ground? A number of our better players would not have accurate 45m passes on their CV. Not many sides do my friend, as sad a statement as that is. When you play a high posession game it allows for mistakes to occur.
7. Monty, Dal and Grammy - are they going to play to their ability in 2009? We all wonder that mate, as well as younger blokes like Armo stepping up and Raph Clarke turning the corner.

Whilst I'd be disappointed not to make the 8, are we really a top 4 candidate if all the other teams have improved?




BTW - would prefer that opposition supporters restrain their thoughts for the main board i.e. I am not looking for your feedback.

Fair points there brother Squizz. I didn't mean to don the famous "rose coloured" glasses, but was just trying to put a different spin on things. So much can be speculated upon but regardless of the all the stats and so on we won't know until we get there. As we know my brother, getting there is a never a dull moment being a Sainter!

 

[roosaints]

Good thread.

No point in blinding yourself to the obvious. As it stands we are some distance behind Hawthorn and Geelong as shown by the ease with which they dispatched us in merely a half of footy last September.

There are concerns. But I still think we're better placed than most other sides and could still push for a top 4 spot. Once in that realm you never know. Injuries may strike those two (the hawks are already having a horror pre-season) down and if we're thereabout, we're in with some chance.

 

[oneandone]

all valid points i think we're good enough to make the eight, we're good enough to make the top 4 they just need to pull their finger out and focus on their skills we have had opportunities to put teams away and haven't purely because of skill errors and this is coming from the same core that were able to do that in 04-06 but i still adhere to the old any given sunday saying. if you can be up and about and make the eight you have as good an opportunity to win a flag as any other team in the eight. how much "better" than us geelong or hawthorn are means SFA when it gets down to that last day in september. Hawthorn proved that last year against the Cats, Essendon were the best team in 99 but didnt even make the granny, we were the best team in 97 but we got taught a lesson on grand final day.
people may call this being deluded or optimistic but history proves it can happen and it will probably happen again this year whether it is us or someone else who knows

 

[Persevering Saint]

Here's my two cents:

1. You're right, Kosi is not going to be the answer. I'm completely over the Kosi thing. If he comes out and does well, hey, I won't complain, and I'd be happy. But I honestly think he's done. I also think that's why we've got picks like Heyne and Lynch, and why Gilbert is being placed up in the forward line. I also think that's why Macca is there. Lyon wants Kosi to do well... but he's ceasing to NEED him to. Still, we'll probably have to wait until next year to really see that.

2. Goal-kicking midfields will be greatly improved by having Beeg in the guts, Ball being fitter, Gram having a go, Armitage growing, Steven maybe playing, and (sorry to say it) Harvey not being there. We lose beauty with Harvey's departure, but we might also gain a few goals.

3.Three words - No. Trevor. Barker. Hopefully, the new forward coach can actually teach them what those two big sticks actually mean. The talent - Roo, Schneids, Milney - is great. Good coaching could make a big difference.

4. But now we have Dawson?... okay, okay, so that was a joke. Look, I think it's a big concern, but you never know with Goose coming back. Still, not convinced that we have a solution to this. Still, we have the Fullback of the Century as our coach, so hopefully he knows how to extract something out of the potentials like Dawson.

5. Yes, injuries suck, but last year our injuries were primarily freaks or less wear-and-tear, or repeat offenders. X is a case in point - great player, but Lyon is starting to get to the point where he wants X to play, but again, doesn't need him to.

6. The accuracy of this kicking issue, especially in the "basketball crap" dungheap that we're going to be served up this year (remember when footy was entertainment?), is a big concern. Hopefully having a good mid coach will help.

7. Gram is injured, it seems, so that's not great - still if he gets fit, I'm hopeful. Monty seems set for a big year. Dal - who knows? So not expecting much from him... he's a superstar-wannabe who'll end up piling up possies on the backline like a ten-year-old nipping drinks from his dad's beer when nobody's looking.

All up, one word sums it up for me - potential. There is the ability for us to go well, and as Montagna said last year, if we fail we've only got ourselves to blame. But we could well have a lousy year - even though a lousy year would be 8, and losing in the first round of the finals (please not to Carlton...).

 

[strategy]

sorry to interupt but is it true Goddard has a hammy and will miss the first game and possibly game 2 as well ?
thanks.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Strategy you must be one of the dumbest individuals in the universe to post this Question in this thread.

Squizzy.
1. Yeah - the Gilbert experiment is worthwhile but I don't know what happens if it fails, Try lynch? To me Kosi can't handle pressure and the worse he plays the more pressure he is under. He tends to be a bit of a downhill performer for that reason.


2. Armitage was actually one of our highest last year, Goddard will get a go this year. Steven can kick them by all accounts , and Eddy seems to make the right moves but he is not quite getting them through the sticks- I still think he can in future though ( confidence ?) Dal should be able to score more than he does, and so should Montagna.

McQualter, Hayes, Jones , Baker, X never going to be big scorers I'm afraid. I don't know about Ray.

3. We sacked the forward coach but the pre-season didn't look so good.

4. There is no-one in the AFL who can replace him. Will weaken the team far more than Harvey's retirement.

5. I don't generally regard Ball, Maguire, Kosi as injury prone ( Kosi may be injury causing ) but more players who have had specific problems that needed a long time to fix. Gardiner , King will hopefully be fit enough to cover the gaps for each other.
X in particular must be on his last legs ( if you pardon the pun ).
Injuries to X, Armitage, Hayes, Goddard, Gram, Hudgeton at this time of year without being caused by any specific incident are a concern and make a bit of a mockery of the Drain player management.

6. Ouch

7. Million dollar question.

 

[StFly]

The thing with kicking issues, you're very rarely going to get a pass lace out over 40+m with the recipient having to do absolutely nothing to get there to nab it, the problem seems to be that our kicking is often to a disadvantage than advantage side which is as much the kick as it is the position of the individual(s) who are the target.

A semi case in point would be with Roo, most problems come from poor execution by foot on the lead up, but there are also times when it's poor execution on the lead back or bad positioning for the lead back, you're not going to be able to beat the zones using fast ball movement if every single player has to lead up, stop, prop, turn and then decide whether or not to play on, so for the most part, I see that as a workable area that could be fixed in multiple ways not attributed to one thing.

Unlike goal kicking.

Kosi, while I think he can make it as an FF if he uses his body to advantage as opposed to knocking out Rooey and Milne, his kicking is woeful for goal, Rooey has the yips, Milne is better off playing on and he knows it most times, Gilbert just looks unco but there needs to be more players in that 30-50 range and more efficient output in terms of goals for those taking the shots. Sure outside 50 you can forgive lower %'s but that's key for me where it is solely kicking problems and not any other problem affected it.

Goal kicking mids is something we need to have as even if Kosi, Milne and Rooey all decide to gel and kick straight it still helps to have those other avenues for when the flood is on, or the zone, or aparemen in defense to go over them. I expect that, as most have stated, GG, Monty and Dal will rectify this deficiency as they are all capable of going over such blocks, but at the same time Ido not expect them to unless it's to the teams advantage.

This might be a risk, but I'd say throw Blake at FB post Max while Dawson builds his confidence as a backman as with backlines you very rarely get genuine 1on1's unless you are so completely blitzed on the rebound, and also nowadays they are pushing up further to free up space to drop back so an FB also needs some manner of awareness in the midfield or up the ground. You can't expect that we'll get another Max who does a job in the 50 and then passes off to other defenders to then take their opponents when they go outside (like Buddy) so instead you should probably go for the team back who can play 1on1 but do also chop and change and link up.

Injury prone people are a bit of a worry, where do you draw the line with them being capable of playing a high standard of footy with them being able to? Where you draw the line with how much you and they can do to manage the issues? I tend to think you give them a year in full in the ressies or in the seniors and if they break down just because as opposed to something like Ball being a madman then you cut them more often than not, this would mean that Kosi since he played most of last year would need to perform this year especially considering "oh he's done his best pre season in terms of stats ever!" earlier in the off season, but Goose and X still have a chance to get on the park and get some consistency.

 

[Squizz]

Thanks guys - still looking for comments from all esteemed Saints BF posters (even if you don't want to cover all the issues).

I agree on Eddy (SS). The goalkicking technique looks OK, maybe just a confidence thing.

I can't work Montagna out - he's kicked 12.14, 10.12 and 12.11 over the past 3 years, and quite a few last year didn't make the distance from inside 50. Should kick 20 goals a year with his ability (and it's not as if he doesn't have a ping).

Schneider, Milne, Dal, X - they all miss goals that you'd think they'd kick in their sleep.

Kosi scares little children with his technique (but evidently he kicks them all at training???).

Lenny and Roo are normally too tired, although Roo had his moments last year.

Ball looks as though he'd rather stab himself in the eye than have a shot for goal, although Silvagni's comments (posted by CHB) may indicate better times ahead.

Gilbo is a favourite but he and CJ obviously had the same role model (cross between Curly Austin and David Cloke I suspect). Both are better the less they think about it (same with Raph).