Are we cursed?

[domus]

If bemoaning bad luck makes you feel better about the multitude of GF losses, all power to you. Yes, I'm matching your tone.
We'll be going around in circles and accusing one another of writing nonsense so Ill refrain from attempting to pick apart your post.

Here's a sample to mull over. Feel free to find another club who comes close. Grand final defeats or draws: 4 points, I point, 10 points, draw, 5 points, 9 points, draw, five points and tell me we got what we deserved and simply have to admit we were never good enough! Probability would suggest you pinch one or two of the eight grand finals but the scoreboard says it's 8 to 0.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Never undersell what the tragic death of my old mate Pants cost us as far as flags. 92? 94?

 

[Hairydawg]

This is a great question and subsequent discussion. It is really hard to put your finger on the Pies ordinary strike rate in GF's but here goes:

(i) Other than 1970 (too young to appreciate), and possibly 1977 and 2010, we were never the best side in the comp in all those losing GF's ie 1979, 1980, 1981, 2002, 2003, 2018. So that is easily explainable. As an aside, I thought the best/most powerful Pies side I ever witnessed was 2011 but ultimately injuries and the timing of the succession plan destroyed our chances that year.

(ii) I agree with a number of others who referenced culture as a possible cause. I have been baked before for raising this issue but I firmly believe that the "we are the biggest/best/most hated/us against them/side by side" mantra doesn't seem to help our cause. You may ask how? Great question. It's just a gut feel. Possibly some of the players subconsciously feel that they have made it having been initially recruited and playing for the largest club in the land. And I feel that the likes of McGuire (a supporter first and foremost) and the adulation of the fan base potentially perpetuate this mindset. Just a thought and not to be viewed as a criticism.

(iii) As an extension of point (ii) above, I suspect that it is no coincidence that our last 2 premierships were underpinned by non Collingwood men at the helm - Matthews and Malthouse. Might be something in that. Were these men able to cut through/deflect/put aside the MANIC Collingwood culture in their quest for ultimate success?

(iv) And finally, particularly given point (iii) above, I found it rather strange that the club reverted back to type in recruiting a much loved/respected former champion player as senior coach. And whilst Buckley has moulded himself into a very good senior coach/man manager, still no success and of course another gut wrenching GF loss to add to the club's collection. The Hird and Voss appointments proved that this model is old school and I would argue that even a club like Hawthorn would be making a mistake bringing back a past champion player (Mitchell) to one day be senior coach. Further, I reckon if Buckley ever coached another club one day, he just might snag a flag.

So that's my 2 bobs worth. We all have our own theories on this curious situation. No doubt there is just something(s) not quite right. And one suspects that this will continue unless there is a material change in the way this club operates. Whatever that change looks like.

Great observations. Hard to argue with. So I won’t.

 

[Hairydawg]

1979. Carlton still hadn't kicked a goat at the 20 minute mark of the second and then the avalanche. So they kicked 5 in the second and third. They were up by 21 points at 3/4 time. They were in front when Harmes punched the ball in from the 3rd row. Yeah we were coming back but what happened in the second and third to allow them 10 goals? That's not a curse, that's just s**t footy.
1980. We came from 5th to get into the GF. That's not a curse, that's just not being good enough.
1981. So we got out to a 21 point lead in the 3rd and Carlton kicked the last couple to draw within 9 points. They kicked 4.7 to our 2 points in the last. That's not a curse, that's just s**t footy.
2011. s**t half of footy. Players decided to zone off rather than do what worked when we were playing well.
2018. Played a good first 20 minutes and were outplayed for the majority of the rest of the game.
The recurring theme according to some of the past players (70's and 80's) is that although the Collingwood teams were hard working and never gave up, they lacked the class needed to turn a game on its head when it mattered most. The Carlton sides oozed talent and game winners. The Brisbane sides of 02 and 03 were the same.
Let's not excuse falling down on the last day in September by blaming something that the club has no control over. We're inadvertently letting off the club and the players for not being good enough to win it.

Good post. There was a toughness and camaraderie about the Brisbane team that I’ve never seen before or since. They were bulletproof. They gave the impression of being unstoppable. GWS bullied us in that game in July, and other teams may have watched that and learned that we can be knocked around the ball and our players need to do the same back and meet/exceed their level of aggression. I don’t have a clue how you train that though if it’s not in their nature. John ‘The Hitman’ Noble doesn’t quite work.

 

[cliffdrabble]

Yes and if you keep your expectations low you undersell the players who you are supposed to be 'supporting'.

I've read lots of posts like yours over the years and it screams cowardice to me.

Support the club and the players or understand that you are a piker without the courage to put your heart on the line.

What screams cowardice to me is the constant whingeing about umpires, luck not going our way, the media ect, ect. Those with courage recognise their shortcomings and do something about it. Not bang on about blaming everything else except themselves. If we had of had a few GF stuff ups you might say it's luck. With Collingwood it's a trend.

Lose after being 44 pts up at half time in 1970, after being 27 points up at 3/4 time in 1977, after kicking the first 5 goals of the game in 1979 and in 2018. No other club comes even close in terms of stuff ups.

Stop using excuses, it is the realm of the loser, the fool and the coward.

 

[The Plowking]

We will win one soon. Have faith.

 

[jmac70]

View attachment 754519

?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Apparently its all God's plan

Thoughts and Prayers to all of you

 

[Bramax]

No - in answer to the thread title.

Mostly we’re not good enough. Occasionally we choke. Or we’re mismanaged or poorly coached. Or injuries or suspensions hit us at exactly the wrong time.

Sometimes none of the above happen and we win a flag.

Exactly.

To say we are cursed implies we suffer bad luck as opposed to receiving any good luck.

I don’t believe in luck. You create your own. As the saying goes, the harder you work, the luckier you get.

Working smarter is as important as working harder whether in sport, business, or anything.

 

[Bramax]

Good post. There was a toughness and camaraderie about the Brisbane team that I’ve never seen before or since. They were bulletproof. They gave the impression of being unstoppable. GWS bullied us in that game in July, and other teams may have watched that and learned that we can be knocked around the ball and our players need to do the same back and meet/exceed their level of aggression. I don’t have a clue how you train that though if it’s not in their nature. John ‘The Hitman’ Noble doesn’t quite work.

Don’t forget, those Brisbane teams had a huge salary cap advantage over us which was worth an extra two star players. In a close result like 02, that’s the difference.

 

[Bramax]

What screams cowardice to me is the constant whingeing about umpires, luck not going our way, the media ect, ect. Those with courage recognise their shortcomings and do something about it. Not bang on about blaming everything else except themselves. If we had of had a few GF stuff ups you might say it's luck. With Collingwood it's a trend.

Lose after being 44 pts up at half time in 1970, after being 27 points up at 3/4 time in 1977, after kicking the first 5 goals of the game in 1979 and in 2018. No other club comes even close in terms of stuff ups.

Stop using excuses, it is the realm of the loser, the fool and the coward.

Nice post.
A ruthless team that keeps its foot on the throat of the opposition doesn’t lose games like you pointed out.

 

[PieLebo87]

What screams cowardice to me is the constant whingeing about umpires, luck not going our way, the media ect, ect. Those with courage recognise their shortcomings and do something about it. Not bang on about blaming everything else except themselves. If we had of had a few GF stuff ups you might say it's luck. With Collingwood it's a trend.

Lose after being 44 pts up at half time in 1970, after being 27 points up at 3/4 time in 1977, after kicking the first 5 goals of the game in 1979 and in 2018. No other club comes even close in terms of stuff ups.

Stop using excuses, it is the realm of the loser, the fool and the coward.

Sorry, but this is crap.

Something as simple as a bounce of a ball a particular way (Milne 2010) and you’ve got a different premier.

A blatant free kick like Maynard/Sheed and you could have a different premier.

How does that not play a factor in deciding a club’s fate/outcome for a season and history?

What you’ve said is actually cowardice - I hate when people try argue that ‘our fate is in our own hands, we make our own luck’. That’s a load of crap - you can’t control every variable in life and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you realise you’re at the mercy of something bigger.

Whilst I understand our work ethic ect plays a big part in where we get to, there is ALWAYS an element of luck involved.

How many people here have worked like dogs only for someone else to get that promotion because of timing ect. and vica versa? No luck involved...?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Grab the replays of 66, 70, 77, 79, 80 and 81.
This current period is chicken feed compared to those years of misery.

Our Grand Final history...

64 A scrubby kick from a Melbourne back pocket won the game. Luckily they havent won one since
66 A scrubby kick from a StKilda back pocket won their first flag. Luckily they havent won one since
70 Desperate bad luck to lose McKenna after half time due to a friendly fire collision with Tuddy
77 Phil Carman suspended for two Grand Finals won North their first flag
79 An out of bounds ball punched in to the goal square won Carlton the game
80 Nowhere near it.
81 Injuries at the wrong time of the season meant we were nowhere near it
90 Unbeatable at the right time of year. Essendon were scared of Collingwood, our Eagles QF draw further stuffed up the Bombers
02 Nearly pinched a premiership off a better team
03 Nowhere near it but Rocca's suspension was crucial
10 Imagine if the ball had bounced into Milnes hands..........revenge for 66
11 Geelong was the only team we couldnt beat all year but injuries and selection mistakes didnt help
18 Sheed's late kick

Most of the time we werent the best side and thats why we lost. 77, 79, 11 and 18 were some of the worst ones to slip past us.

 

[magpienato]

As the other posts suggest, it's more that we overachieve and find ourselves in Grand Finals we really had no right to be in. There are a few flags that probably should have been ours, 2011 sticks out the most. The others have simply been up against a great team, couldn't do much. Then you look at Richmond who haven't beaten a Victorian side in a Grand Final since 1980, and essentially get lucky enough to play easy beats like the Giants. You call it a curse, I simply call it a lack of luck.

 

[jonbe54]

1970 Tuddy cost us the flag, 1979 Harmes wild slap from the second row cost us another. 2002 super team artificially created by the AFL - Ditto 2003. 2011 Mick Malthouse deliberately destroyed our chances in the middle of the actual game.

You could say bad luck caused it but in each case there was a direct cause and in 3 of those causes you spell 'curse' , , AFL,

Tuddy accidentally taking out a rampaging McKenna can be called bad luck but the rest are the deliberate intent of interested parties.

 

[PieLebo87]

As the other posts suggest, it's more that we overachieve and find ourselves in Grand Finals we really had no right to be in. There are a few flags that probably should have been ours, 2011 sticks out the most. The others have simply been up against a great team, couldn't do much. Then you look at Richmond who haven't beaten a Victorian side in a Grand Final since 1980, and essentially get lucky enough to play easy beats like the Giants. You call it a curse, I simply call it a lack of luck.

Explain the concept of ‘overachieving’. How does one ‘overachieve’?

What you mentioned re the Tigers is the stars aligning for them, it ain’t luck. When did the stars align for Collingwood in Grand Finals?

44 Grand Finals for 15 wins and 27 losses. 27 losses.

 

[PieLebo87]

jonbe54 i can’t comment on the GFs pre-1990, as I wasn’t born.

In 2002, forget Brisbane being a super team - Rocca’s goal wasn’t called a goal. Tarrant wasn’t given a free then ball goes to the other end and Lynch gets a free and goals in the last quarter. We lose by under 2 goals.

In 2018, Maynard is blocked and a free isn’t paid, that’s a decision of that one particular umpire adjudicating that play. I personally don’t blame the AFL for that.

As mentioned before, it’s a long series of unfortunate events that have transpired against the CFC - thus my logic of us being cursed. Nothing transpires in our favour in GFs. Why?

 

[Help My Club]

jonbe54 i can’t comment on the GFs pre-1990, as I wasn’t born.

In 2002, forget Brisbane being a super team - Rocca’s goal wasn’t called a goal. Tarrant wasn’t given a free then ball goes to the other end and Lynch gets a free and goals in the last quarter. We lose by under 2 goals.

In 2018, Maynard is blocked and a free isn’t paid, that’s a decision of that one particular umpire adjudicating that play. I personally don’t blame the AFL for that.

As mentioned before, it’s a long series of unfortunate events that have transpired against the CFC - thus my logic of us being cursed. Nothing transpires in our favour in GFs. Why?

Don't have the answer mate. Just seems to always happen in clutch moments.

No doubt there have been a number of wasted opportunities over the recent past.

What concerns me more is that since around 2000, we have consistently been the better performing team/club vis-a-vis the old arch rivals Carlton, Essendon and Richmond, and by quite a stretch. And yet during that period we have only won one flag against Richmond's one, Essendon's one and Carlton zero. Possibly by the end of today Richmond, a basket case not that long ago, will move past us with 2 flags. And what happens if Essendon and Carlton ever get their shit together which is not beyond the realms of possibilty, particularly Carlton. That is the true cost of wasted opportunities.

 

[magpienato]

Explain the concept of ‘overachieving’. How does one ‘overachieve’?

What you mentioned re the Tigers is the stars aligning for them, it ain’t luck. When did the stars align for Collingwood in Grand Finals?

44 Grand Finals for 15 wins and 27 losses. 27 losses.

We over achieve, it's clear. Last year, end up making a Grand Final we weren't even meant to be in, same with 2002 and 2003. That's just 3 losses that were against the odds.
And yeah, that's exactly what im saying, Tigers have had a bit if luck on their side, and we just dont.

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[upnsmoke]

This year felt right. It should’ve been 2019, felt like we’d get our redemption.

No way.

With all the injuries. 2019 was a throw away. Pies was always going to be skiing uphill against the elite teams. I think Eagles, Tigers are better.... Pies is on same tier as Cats (but Pies are better when healthy) ... But younger.. Thus there is hope.


And about the curse....

Maybe.

But also remember last year... Eagles were the better team.... Only reason pies were fave entering was due to the rubbish media hype. Eagles won like four in a row against the Pies entering the final. Eagles were better.

This year... Pies lucked out with Cats as first week finals opponents... They over achieved... I think they are behind a healthy eagles and Tigers team... And even healthy Pies.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

We over achieve, it's clear. Last year, end up making a Grand Final we weren't even meant to be in, same with 2002 and 2003. That's just 3 losses that were against the odds.
And yeah, that's exactly what im saying, Tigers have had a bit if luck on their side, and we just dont.

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Wasn't playing in GF something we wanted to achieve?

If not when did we shut that goal down?

Don't confuse your own expectations of us with expectations of the players and the club

 

[PieLebo87]

We over achieve, it's clear. Last year, end up making a Grand Final we weren't even meant to be in, same with 2002 and 2003. That's just 3 losses that were against the odds.
And yeah, that's exactly what im saying, Tigers have had a bit if luck on their side, and we just dont.

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I can’t agree with this.

Even Eagles supporters acknowledge and accept we would’ve been worthy premiers last year. If we’d won the GF, no-one would’ve contested the Pies as the best side in the end. We beat GWS, Richmond then WCE in the GF - why wouldn’t we warrant it?

2002 - We beat all the best sides that final series including the minor premiers in the QF at their home deck, and belted the 3rd best side in the Prelim (and earlier in the season in SA). A couple of dubious calls in the GF which we then lose and all of a sudden we weren’t meant to be there?

2003 - Same thing. We beat Brisbane in the QF and belted the minor premiers. Why wouldn’t we deserve to be there? Rocca, our barometer that finals series gets suspended, and we get belted against the side who we beat in the QF.

 

[jonbe54]

jonbe54 i can’t comment on the GFs pre-1990, as I wasn’t born.

In 2002, forget Brisbane being a super team - Rocca’s goal wasn’t called a goal. Tarrant wasn’t given a free then ball goes to the other end and Lynch gets a free and goals in the last quarter. We lose by under 2 goals.

In 2018, Maynard is blocked and a free isn’t paid, that’s a decision of that one particular umpire adjudicating that play. I personally don’t blame the AFL for that.

As mentioned before, it’s a long series of unfortunate events that have transpired against the CFC - thus my logic of us being cursed. Nothing transpires in our favour in GFs. Why?

We are all entitled to our opinions Pie.

People tend to blame bad luck for simple human failure or bias. THAT is a proven fact.

Luck plays a part, but the willingness to own our own fate and be responsible for our own circumstances is far more influential than any other factor.

It is almost always the difference between failure and success.

 

[PieLebo87]

We are all entitled to our opinions Pie.

People tend to blame bad luck for simple human failure or bias. THAT is a proven fact.

Luck plays a part, but the willingness to own our own fate and be responsible for our own circumstances is far more influential than any other factor.

It is almost always the difference between failure and success.

I don’t disagree that a game of football is in your control to the extent of being able to simply beat a side comprehensively and not allow for the opportunity for the line balls/umpiring decisions/bounce of the ball to go against you, but when we have gotten into these situation, for whatever reason, has always gone against us in GFs. When luck is there, we are unlucky. Over the course of countless GFs since 1970, from McKenna getting knocked, Carmen being suspended, Rocca non-goal, Maynard non-free. Nothing has gone in our favour - it’s like we are cursed.

 

[jonbe54]

I don’t disagree that a game of football is in your control to the extent of being able to simply beat a side comprehensively and not allow for the opportunity for the line balls/umpiring decisions/bounce of the ball to go against you, but when we have gotten into these situation, for whatever reason, has always gone against us in GFs. When luck is there, we are unlucky. Over the course of countless GFs since 1970, from McKenna getting knocked, Carmen being suspended, Rocca non-goal, Maynard non-free. Nothing has gone in our favour - it’s like we are cursed.

Luck plays its part for certain, but if we had been better on the day those things would never have mattered.

We have had our share of misfortune for sure but we have also had chances which we failed to capitalize on.

The only 2 causes of misfortune in our GF's I have seen was '70 with Tuddy and the 79 bullshit with Harmes.

The rest was somewhat within our control.