News Are We Really Improving?

[Tiger71]

Just read this article on King Alistair Clarkson's current holiday complimentary of the Hawthorn FC
I posted it in another thread , but it was so intriguing I thought I would start up a thread.

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl...ay-from-waverley/story-fni5f8ge-1227116915142

Apparently King Al Clarkson (KAC )has gone over to England to study the training facilities ,resources and coaching/management techniques used in the EPL . Not sure if This is a typo,but the Hawks are looking to spend $35 million to gain that extra edge on the rest on this training facility
King Al Clarkson wants to be more of an EPL club manager and be a delegator to at least 10-15 sub coaches
For us to compete with the top sides and to actually improve are our facilities and coaching team up to or better than the standards of our opponents?? it is really quite frightening how much Hawthorn and KAC really want to succeed. He wants them to be a mini ManU and SirAlex type or a modern day Man City.
We can improve as much as we like within ourselves as a whole, but unless our improvement rate as a whole is greater than our opponents we will just be making up numbers,
This to me is our real issue where improvement is needed if we are to improve within the competition as a whole
Discuss with care

I read the article and i am confused as you are saying that clarkson wants to go the model of a EPL manager and delegate to 10-15 sub coaches...i cant see that anywhere. Could you provide a link where the HFC has actually stated that or are you assuming the above due to him going to England ? See the problem with that is that football department spending is now capped. They can try and do this but they will be paying a huge amount in additional tax to the competition to make it nonviable. I clearly remember the Hawks pres stating that in his last interview on SEN, he was even actually expressing the view that in all likely hood they may have to cut coaches.

Back to the article though and your OP. The Hawks are probably wanting to do this, because clubs like ours have started to breech the gap. You obviously have forgotten our own facility in punt road, ya know the ugly one that cost 20 million that has a state of the art training facility for our boys to develop/ train at. You obviously have forgotten about our ground re development as well at punt road AND our further 20 million we have managed to get funded for our MCG ground at Craigieburn.

So a club like ours who trained in sub standard facility's have improved markedly and have actually balanced the ledger in regards to funding in development/training like the Hawks. The big difference is our new base is new, it really only became fully functional in 2013-2014 where as the Hawks waverly base has been going 5 years now ?? We wont see the actual benefit to our players till this year IMO.

As to the coaches. Hardwick as a poster has mentioned went to the states this year, as well as last year. We also have the equal largest numbers of coaches in the AFL as well. I believe this is the third year that Hardwick has been Overseas to other footy codes to grab ideas. I know Wallace even went to the EPL, so the practice is not ground breaking, so dont worry.

So simply. We have invested tons in our self improvement. The thing you and others need to realise, improvement in training via facilities/coaching/development can take 24 months or so before showing real results. We have shown marked improvement based on a KPI standpoint. That has been done to death in other threads, so wont do it here but essentially the 40 million investment in our footy club in the last 2-3 years will soon start to show some tangable results.

 

[nut]

The same way you generalise the "negative" posters like that, I'll generalist the "positive" posters by saying you all are happy for anything the club does. You celebrate any decision and back the club.

The evidence over 30 years says the positive, sorry "positive" posters don't have a ******* clue about football.

Also your assumption that I would bag the club after a Premiership is almost the most laughable concept I've read on Bigfooty.

That's all I want in my lifetime. A Richmond premiership. The notion of achieving this would have me ridicule the club is ******* stupid.

It's why I care and why I'm perceived negative. I don't see the club doing enough to achieve this. You agreed to an extent of this.

How can you agree that you think the club needs to do more to win a flag, but back their decisions and fight for the people at the club no matter what?

Don't you care? You happy to never win a flag? You don't want to be successful?

I don't understand this hypocritical thinking. Where's your backbone? Where's your spirit?

Just backing the club no matter what is a pointless way of going through life. Demand excellence, demand success.

******* campaigners everywhere.

Great post

 

[Tiger71]

My reasoning is very simple. Any idiot should comprehend. Almost any idiot.

Despite the $6 million given to the club by us, despite record memberships and sponsorships where has the money gone to make us great?

We went from being truly bad to on a level with every other AFL club in terms of facilities, but even those campaigners North have these nice things now.

We failed to get better in football department to make us great. Being the tenth most invested in the football club doesn't make sense when you have 3rd highest memberships and no debt. North missed the finals last year, went out got an exceptional assistant coach, invested in a couple more fitness staff and did what they could to get better. They played in a Prelim. We make finals lose our best coach and fail to replace him. We cheap out.

This is about being great. Not about being cushy and improving from where we were. Where we were was well below most clubs. It was a disgrace and mismanagement. Now that we have caught up in that respect, we have drowned in mediocrity.

We have lost our two best assistant coaches in fact probably our two best coaches, and replaced them with Rutten. This off season. We have put recently retired players in as development coaches. Things done on the cheap. When we needed to get better help as we were making finals.

Our fitness department is a joke. Yep we made a play For the best but FAILED. Then when we failed we cheaped out.

You become great by investing in our football department. You give the club every chance to succeed by investing in the football department.

I don't see this.

If our existence is about being great, enough talk. Do something.

It's like the talk of improving our list and then recruiting Taylor Hunt. Then saying we achieved our objectives.

The club treats you and I like chumps.

Agree in part re our coaches but disagree on our investment part.

I agree in losing both our best assistant coaches and replacing them with just the Truck left me puzzled and a little disappointed BUT in a way it highlights the real improvement in our program. Name another club in the last 24 months that has had a assistant coaches start from scratch in our program and get a AFL senior gig. So that shows me, that we, within our existing coaching ranks have a program that has value.

We still have a total of 10 coaches, the equal largest of any club. Are they the right mix of coaches ? well thats a worthy debate on another thread and I have been open with my view that I think not but the reality is fact though that we dont lack for development coaches.

I agree we should be more aggressive and seem to have one eye always fixed on our purse strings then going out and buying quality aka Norf but i am willing to give the club a little more time to see if they are right.

On to fitness department not being quality. I actually strongly disagree. Due to our sub standard performance in the first half, most blamed fitness, i did too. The reality simply was that at the end of the year we were equal second in running the game out. The only team above us by one quarter was Port. I believe it was more an issue of injury/lack of depth/game plan that caused our dramas in the first half.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

The club treats you and I like chumps.

We were treated far far worse in the Clinton Casey days.Not saying that the club is treating us badly today,I just think you have an axe to grind with the current admin for some reason which is your right too of coarse.

 

[Tango67]

without going on with long wined dribble, are we improving - Hell yes, but so is every club
are we improving enough and quickly enough is the question?

 

[TigerImposter]

I read the article and i am confused as you are saying that clarkson wants to go the model of a EPL manager and delegate to 10-15 sub coaches...i cant see that anywhere. Could you provide a link where the HFC has actually stated that or are you assuming the above due to him going to England ? See the problem with that is that football department spending is now capped. They can try and do this but they will be paying a huge amount in additional tax to the competition to make it nonviable. I clearly remember the Hawks pres stating that in his last interview on SEN, he was even actually expressing the view that in all likely hood they may have to cut coaches.

Back to the article though and your OP. The Hawks are probably wanting to do this, because clubs like ours have started to breech the gap. You obviously have forgotten our own facility in punt road, ya know the ugly one that cost 20 million that has a state of the art training facility for our boys to develop/ train at. You obviously have forgotten about our ground re development as well at punt road AND our further 20 million we have managed to get funded for our MCG ground at Craigieburn.

So a club like ours who trained in sub standard facility's have improved markedly and have actually balanced the ledger in regards to funding in development/training like the Hawks. The big difference is our new base is new, it really only became fully functional in 2013-2014 where as the Hawks waverly base has been going 5 years now ?? We wont see the actual benefit to our players till this year IMO.

As to the coaches. Hardwick as a poster has mentioned went to the states this year, as well as last year. We also have the equal largest numbers of coaches in the AFL as well. I believe this is the third year that Hardwick has been Overseas to other footy codes to grab ideas. I know Wallace even went to the EPL, so the practice is not ground breaking, so dont worry.

So simply. We have invested tons in our self improvement. The thing you and others need to realise, improvement in training via facilities/coaching/development can take 24 months or so before showing real results. We have shown marked improvement based on a KPI standpoint. That has been done to death in other threads, so wont do it here but essentially the 40 million investment in our footy club in the last 2-3 years will soon start to show some tangable results.

You didn't read his concept of delegation not only to coaches but to players
Why would you go over there ?
It's obvious what KAC intentions are.
You are confusing internal improvement as a team v external improvement against the rest

 

[Tigerbob]

Agree in part re our coaches but disagree on our investment part.

I agree in losing both our best assistant coaches and replacing them with just the Truck left me puzzled and a little disappointed BUT in a way it highlights the real improvement in our program. Name another club in the last 24 months that has had a assistant coaches start from scratch in our program and get a AFL senior gig. So that shows me, that we, within our existing coaching ranks have a program that has value.

We still have a total of 10 coaches, the equal largest of any club. Are they the right mix of coaches ? well thats a worthy debate on another thread and I have been open with my view that I think not but the reality is fact though that we dont lack for development coaches.

I agree we should be more aggressive and seem to have one eye always fixed on our purse strings then going out and buying quality aka Chief really is sorry. but i am willing to give the club a little more time to see if they are right.

On to fitness department not being quality. I actually strongly disagree. Due to our sub standard performance in the first half, most blamed fitness, i did too. The reality simply was that at the end of the year we were equal second in running the game out. The only team above us by one quarter was Port. I believe it was more an issue of injury/lack of depth/game plan that caused our dramas in the first half.

Excuses.

Our fitness department is rat shit.

We have 10 coaches but most are cheap and in development roles with vfl team.

We want to be a power we need to start acting like one.

 

[TigerTime3]

The same way you generalise the "negative" posters like that, I'll generalist the "positive" posters by saying you all are happy for anything the club does. You celebrate any decision and back the club.

The evidence over 30 years says the positive, sorry "positive" posters don't have a ******* clue about football.

Also your assumption that I would bag the club after a Premiership is almost the most laughable concept I've read on Bigfooty.

That's all I want in my lifetime. A Richmond premiership. The notion of achieving this would have me ridicule the club is ******* stupid.

It's why I care and why I'm perceived negative. I don't see the club doing enough to achieve this. You agreed to an extent of this.

How can you agree that you think the club needs to do more to win a flag, but back their decisions and fight for the people at the club no matter what?

Don't you care? You happy to never win a flag? You don't want to be successful?

I don't understand this hypocritical thinking. Where's your backbone? Where's your spirit?

Just backing the club no matter what is a pointless way of going through life. Demand excellence, demand success.

******* campaigners everywhere.

Excellent post.

Some people simply do not want to engage with critical thinking. When there are clear signs other clubs are improving faster than us, there's no way to cheer and be happy about that. We need to get better.

Another thing, there's no need for brightsiders to constantly talk as if everyone else forgets how poor we were in 2009. Everyone remembers and applauds the improvement to date. The thing is, we still haven't achieved anything. Until we do, don't get complacent.

Other clubs are hungry for the ultimate success, we seem to be hungry for making finals.

Thankfully, I think it's mostly marketing spin. Internally, I see a hungry club, but I see a club failing to bring in multiple key targets in recent years. A club that's lost important people and hasn't replaced them. And a club that's done nothing significant to improve our on-field and off-field talent for over 2 years (The Chocco appointment and Chaplin/Knights/Edwards free signings while getting an extra 2nd rounder to invest in the draft, a year after getting Ivan cheap, Morris for free, and Ellis at 15).

We've stagnated on and off-field since 2012 when we lost a bunch of games by less than 10 points and had a young list brimming with premiership potential. Now it's the same list and we're still performing about the same. We need to be better than this and it needs to happen in 2015.

 

[TigerImposter]

Agree ...always complaining about the club nothing is ever good enough...you would have to be blind freddy to not see the club is heading in the right direction...but i guess tigerIMPOSTER we should make you the president of the club that way you could tear it to pieces from the inside out.....that would be great for the club heaps of negativity like the 80s...

Do you think Woolworth's doesn't look over Coles backyard and vice versa ?You're delusional mate if you think this doesn't happen
This thread was not intended to be a blight on the club , but the usual suspects took it to be and missed the point.
Try again when you can come up with some real evidence to convince me that we are ahead of our main dangers

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Yes we are...albeit slowly....

 

[TigerImposter]

Excellent post.

Some people simply do not want to engage with critical thinking. When there are clear signs other clubs are improving faster than us, there's no way to cheer and be happy about that. We need to get better.

Another thing, there's no need for brightsiders to constantly talk as if everyone else forgets how poor we were in 2009. Everyone remembers and applauds the improvement to date. The thing is, we still haven't achieved anything. Until we do, don't get complacent.

Other clubs are hungry for the ultimate success, we seem to be hungry for making finals.

Thankfully, I think it's mostly marketing spin. Internally, I see a hungry club, but I see a club failing to bring in multiple key targets in recent years. A club that's lost important people and hasn't replaced them. And a club that's done nothing significant to improve our on-field and off-field talent for over 2 years (The Chocco appointment and Chaplin/Knights/Edwards free signings while getting an extra 2nd rounder to invest in the draft, a year after getting Ivan cheap, Morris for free, and Ellis at 15).

We've stagnated on and off-field since 2012 when we lost a bunch of games by less than 10 points and had a young list brimming with premiership potential. Now it's the same list and we're still performing about the same. We need to be better than this and it needs to happen in 2015.

This post clearly describes my beliefs.
Great post

 

[Tigerbob]

Collingwood about to announce the acquisition of Neil Balme.

I hate them but **** I admire them.

Want to succeed. Laugh all you want there is a thing about a pure want to be the best.

Eddie has that.

 

[Royce Hafey]

Agree. Are we anywhere near this ? Are we making up ground or are others going passed us?are the heavyweights still above us? This is where I base my OP . Remember a lot of teams have also gone through rebuilds during this age of two new teams .

Go back a couple of years ago and we were bracketed with Melbourne and probably a narrow majority thought they had a better future. At the beginning of last year you could still find an active thread on the Carlton board where they were all lol-ing about how Tiger supporters had the temerity to think that "their kids are better then ours". Other teams we have overtaken in the last two years include Collingwood, Adelaide and West Coast. We have improved our position vis a vis Geelong but are about the same distance behind Hawthorn and Sydney. The two teams that have performed better in relative terms are Port and North. This is a concern, but it is also mostly based on one season of injury-based inconsistency. If you are worried about our performance measured against other teams it's these two you need to look at - not the likes of Hawthorn. As for the $35 million scheme...well the ghost of Graeme Richmond says hello. First hubris, then nemesis.

 

[TigerImposter]

Go back a couple of years ago and we were bracketed with Melbourne and probably a narrow majority thought they had a better future. At the beginning of last year you could still find an active thread on the Carlton board where they were all lol-ing about how Tiger supporters had the temerity to think that "their kids are better then ours". Other teams we have overtaken in the last two years include Collingwood, Adelaide and West Coast. We have improved our position vis a vis Geelong but are about the same distance behind Hawthorn and Sydney. The two teams that have performed better in relative terms are Port and North. This is a concern, but it is also mostly based on one season of injury-based inconsistency. If you are worried about our performance measured against other teams it's these two you need to look at - not the likes of Hawthorn. As for the $35 million scheme...well the ghost of Graeme Richmond says hello. First hubris, then nemesis.

I agree on most of your points, but I don't actually believe we are ahead of collingwod CFC or Geelong yet maybe on ladder position , but that's irrelevant as I look at overall progress and potential based on recent movements
We cheaped out on Daly and let him walk to Brisbane. Are we progressing faster than the Lions and Dogs considering Benny /DH and co have had a few years start on them ? As many on here have said we had brighter prospects in 2012 than now based on our recent player pick ups and staff departures .we all know we were a basket case in 09,but if we hide behind this excuse for the rest of DH tenure we may as well lock ourselves in a closet for the rest of our lives
Hello mate ,I would like to remind you that's its coming up to 2015 and you only get to improve your list once a year. We have thus far demonstrated that we haven't done this effectively and for off field staff new comer Ben Rutten is a start , but is it enough?
Believe me I fear Collingwood ,Lions ,CFC (Mick factor) Doggies Crows and Saints more than North or Cats as these clubs are developing young lists and refusing to take short cuts
It may sound over the top now ,but I believe they're improving faster than us
I used to have a common line on PRE
Fortunately all the teams above us are falling below us
Unfortunately all the teams below us are rising above us
Port and North have done this ,who's next?

 

[Tiger71]

You didn't read his concept of delegation not only to coaches but to players
Why would you go over there ?
It's obvious what KAC intentions are.
You are confusing internal improvement as a team v external improvement against the rest

Sorry man, I believe you are confused. I just answered your questions in your OP, unless you forget what you wrote ?

Also most coaches delegate, its nothing new. Dimma does it, he learnt from AC and is actually best mates with him still.

 

[Jade]

You've made the finals two years straight, and you did on the back of a hell of a winning streak.

Look I have no love for the Tigers, but if that isn't improvement I don't know what is.

 

[Tiger71]

Excuses.

Our fitness department is rat shit.

We have 10 coaches but most are cheap and in development roles with vfl team.

We want to be a power we need to start acting like one.

I disagree on our fitness department. Bottom line, fitness can be measured on many things but also on how many quarters won and how we run out games as well as how many last quarters won. We stack up top 4 in most of those KPI's, so our fitness department must be doing something right

As to the quality of our coaches, I agree most are cheap. I have argued long and hard that our mix is wrong comparing newer coaches to experienced and proven successful coaches. The club needs to address that IMO.

Can i ask bob, how does a club act like a power ?

 

[Tiger71]

You've made the finals two years straight, and you did on the back of a hell of a winning streak.

Look I have no love for the Tigers, but if that isn't improvement I don't know what is.

Cant believe it, but the biggest one eyed Essendon supporter posted something finally I agree with

 

[TigerImposter]

Sorry man, I believe you are confused. I just answered your questions in your OP, unless you forget what you wrote ?

Also most coaches delegate, its nothing new. Dimma does it, he learnt from AC and is actually best mates with him still.

No mate KAC is no nonsense man he demands the best. Who cares if they're best mates. How is that going to improve us ? He learnt bugger all when he was his side kick otherwise we wouldn't have thread like this

 

[Tiger71]

I agree on most of your points, but I don't actually believe we are ahead of collingwod CFC or Geelong yet maybe on ladder position , but that's irrelevant as I look at overall progress and potential based on recent movements
We cheaped out on Daly and let him walk to Brisbane. Are we progressing faster than the Lions and Dogs considering Benny /DH and co have had a few years start on them ? As many on here have said we had brighter prospects in 2012 than now based on our recent player pick ups and staff departures .we all know we were a basket case in 09,but if we hide behind this excuse for the rest of DH tenure we may as well lock ourselves in a closet for the rest of our lives
Hello mate ,I would like to remind you that's its coming up to 2015 and you only get to improve your list once a year. We have thus far demonstrated that we haven't done this effectively and for off field staff new comer Ben Rutten is a start , but is it enough?
Believe me I fear Collingwood ,Lions ,CFC (Mick factor) Doggies Crows and Saints more than North or Cats as these clubs are developing young lists and refusing to take short cuts
It may sound over the top now ,but I believe they're improving faster than us
I used to have a common line on PRE
Fortunately all the teams above us are falling below us
Unfortunately all the teams below us are rising above us
Port and North have done this ,who's next?

TigerImposter, you said "Unfortunately all the teams below us are rising above us Port and North have done this ,who's next?"

Please list me how North have gone past us. I really want to understand your view point. It seems to me, it has to be limited to a 12 month window because that is the only thing i can think off how North have gone past us. Have North played in consecutive finals in the last couple of years ? Have North backed on the easiest draw known to man won more games then us in the last 24 months ? Have they won more quarters, have they been a more contested side then us ? etc etc.

So, with respect, what forms your opinion a North have risen above us?

 

[no orange peeler]

Watch hawthorn cop a fine for breaching the football department salary cap.

 

[Tiger71]

No mate KAC is no nonsense man he demands the best. Who cares if they're best mates. How is that going to improve us ? He learnt bugger all when he was his side kick otherwise we wouldn't have thread like this

Seriously ? Are you stating Hardwick has learnt nothing under Clarkson ? Your whole thread title asks the question are we really improving....across all KPI that measure that we are, so why the confusion ? Maybe your thread title should be "Are our Footy admin and Coaching department able to continue to improve us", As thats what you seem to be really talking about.

Seriously though to suggest Hardwick learnt nothing under Clarkson is nothing other then fantasy

 

[TigerImposter]

TigerImposter, you said "Unfortunately all the teams below us are rising above us Port and North have done this ,who's next?"

Please list me how North have gone past us. I really want to understand your view point. It seems to me, it has to be limited to a 12 month window because that is the only thing i can think off how North have gone past us. Have North played in consecutive finals in the last couple of years ? Have North backed on the easiest draw known to man won more games then us in the last 24 months ? Have they won more quarters, have they been a more contested side then us ? etc etc.

So, with respect, what forms your opinion a North have risen above us?

Fitness staff , recruited some players to have a last fling. It's a short term rise , but its there
You're acting like an apologist for the DH regime which is fine , but are we really improving to a level of being competitive with the rest let alone greatness?
I know KAC wouldn't have a lot of the guys on our list in his team and probably some of the staff the guy is a perfectionist and would kill to win

 

[Tiger71]

Fitness staff , recruited some players to have a last fling. It's a short term rise , but its there
You're acting like an apologist for the DH regime which is fine , but are we really improving to a level of being competitive with the rest let alone greatness

Firstly, don't disrespect me by labeling me a apologist as that is rubbish and quite frankly offensive. I have my own opinion, but i try to be balanced in my views. I find that has helped me to succeed in my personal and professional life so I wont change it to suit you.

back on topic.

So if Richmond FC had of recruited Waite, Higgins and Dal Santo for a crack at a short term flag, you would have been satisfied. I disagree with that view

 

[Tiger71]

Excellent post.

Some people simply do not want to engage with critical thinking. When there are clear signs other clubs are improving faster than us, there's no way to cheer and be happy about that. We need to get better.

Another thing, there's no need for brightsiders to constantly talk as if everyone else forgets how poor we were in 2009. Everyone remembers and applauds the improvement to date. The thing is, we still haven't achieved anything. Until we do, don't get complacent.

Other clubs are hungry for the ultimate success, we seem to be hungry for making finals.

Thankfully, I think it's mostly marketing spin. Internally, I see a hungry club, but I see a club failing to bring in multiple key targets in recent years. A club that's lost important people and hasn't replaced them. And a club that's done nothing significant to improve our on-field and off-field talent for over 2 years (The Chocco appointment and Chaplin/Knights/Edwards free signings while getting an extra 2nd rounder to invest in the draft, a year after getting Ivan cheap, Morris for free, and Ellis at 15).

We've stagnated on and off-field since 2012 when we lost a bunch of games by less than 10 points and had a young list brimming with premiership potential. Now it's the same list and we're still performing about the same. We need to be better than this and it needs to happen in 2015.

Good post TT, some great thoughts. The below i want to address if I can?

"Other clubs are hungry for the ultimate success, we seem to be hungry for making finals"

Most make the same referencing the above quote to always to seem to see the positive in other clubs without acknowledging the positives in ours. Thankfully, and like you I also see a hungry club and a lot of the "perception" is just to feed the footy masses. Driven by media and then lapped up by those who have about one original thought out of 3 a week ( not saying that about anyone on here ).

The one point I do disagree with your above post is the complacent or stagnated idea. You are correct that we have not done some great deals as the one you highlighted but I believe in part one of the reasons we have not replaced those that have left or brought more players to the club is simply due to re aligning our costings with in the club. Short term pain if you will to get us in the position of a Hawks and Pies to have the freedom to recruit the right types when they become available while still being financially responsible.

I also believe in part the decisions we have made in the last 24 months is that our coaching and admin department believe, either rightly or wrongly, that our list is not that far away. You are spot on, 2015 will answer a lot of questions.