Bazball 2024

[PP34]

This is the impression I get with Brook.

Was there on Saturday arvo when Brook and Crawley were batting. They were doing it easy, in fact Crawley looked fantastic (although he was beaten several times outside off early in his innings).

Then Brook plays that awful shot. Why, just why did he even need to do it?

Crash Craddock reported that Brook has said that he doesn't believe in team meetings. He's their VC for god's sake. What example is that for the rest of the side? 'Well Harry doesn't want them so we don't need them'?

He reeks of a bit of a figjam to me.

I also read this morning that McCullum got rid of some of the coaching staff earlier this year including their fielding coach.

They have rept what they've sowed. Arrogant tossers the lot of them

Yeah there is a massive level of arrogance to the whole thing.

And it rubs off on their game plan.

There’s never been anything wrong with playing attacking cricket. But acting like you invented it and like it has to be that irrespective of situation is just next level arrogance.

The great Aussie team with Hayden etc attacked from the get go. But they also knew when the game didn’t call for it.

I also think modern cricket and the lack of exposure everywhere is hurting lots of test cricketers. Combine that with the English arrogance around Bazball and you get some comical cricketing decisions from talented players.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The states used to put out genuinely strong teams for warm up matches. This was a state player's one chance to test themselves against international cricketers.

Also a chance to press their claims for Aus selection.

As a kid I remember Sleep and May bowling SA to victory on Day 4 vs New Zealand in front of a healthy crowd. Another year I was able to run on the field after play and got Malcolm Marshall's autograph.

Then the states started putting out half strength teams, prioritising Shield cricket. Matches got treated as training sessions rather than proper matches. More state players get to play for Australia now across the 3 formats so it's not such a novelty. Also most state players have played with/against international players in the various T20 competitions.

A bit like State of Origin, those games have had their time.

Not sure their future. Should the minnow nations be invited to play a test match in the lead up at a neutral venue?

Eg us play Ireland at Headingly in a one off test prior to the next Ashes (...or maybe Irish conditions are close enough to what we'll face so play there)

England play Afghanistan at Bellerive when they come out here

 

[swingdog]

The states used to put out genuinely strong teams for warm up matches. This was a state player's one chance to test themselves against international cricketers.

Also a chance to press their claims for Aus selection.

As a kid I remember Sleep and May bowling SA to victory on Day 4 vs New Zealand in front of a healthy crowd. Another year I was able to run on the field after play and got Malcolm Marshall's autograph.

Then the states started putting out half strength teams, prioritising Shield cricket. Matches got treated as training sessions rather than proper matches. More state players get to play for Australia now across the 3 formats so it's not such a novelty. Also most state players have played with/against international players in the various T20 competitions.

A bit like State of Origin, those games have had their time.

Not sure their future. Should the minnow nations be invited to play a test match in the lead up at a neutral venue?

Eg us play Ireland at Headingly in a one off test prior to the next Ashes (...or maybe Irish conditions are close enough to what we'll face so play there)

England play Afghanistan at Bellerive when they come out here

I think it's been raised before but maybe state teams could get Shield points from games against touring sides?

 

[swingdog]

Barney Ronay from the Guardian is good on this in the latest Grade Cricketer podcast:



From 56.10

 

[kickazz]

Barney Ronay from the Guardian is good on this in the latest Grade Cricketer podcast:



From 56.10

"Locust Capitalism"


"Those six inch screen guys, who have been hired from Pepsi, are actually in charge of what happens"


Long but he is worth listening to

 

[kickazz]

The comparison some have made of Stokes to Watson extend to poor use of DRS - only in the case of Stokes it's when fielding.

Wasting two on speculative at best reviews on Neser was horrible captaincy

 

[The_Reaper]

I think it's been raised before but maybe state teams could get Shield points from games against touring sides?

I find it hard to believe that if CA instructed a state to field a full strength side they wouldn’t.
Shield teams already take into account CA and players of national interest when selecting teams (as they should) often when the restrictions they are put under actually disadvantage the team.

 

[Black Diamond]

Most of the Bazball discussion is about the batting, probably because the WTF moments are much more obvious. This stupid philosophy has also crueller their bowlers. Here are the reasons:

1. Seems obvious, but the bowlers don't get much of a rest and are cooked by the end of a test.
   
   
2. Completely insufficient warm-up. The whole team was clearly unfit in the first two tests. Say what you want about the Lilac Hill or Canberra pitches compared to Optus or the Gabba, had they played a proper match the bowlers would have had proper match-practice under their belts. The other side of this issue is LINE AND LENGTH IS WHAT IT IS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PITCH. SO IS MATCH FITNESS. So not only were the bowlers unfit, they were so underdone they could not hit the right areas consistently.
   
   
3. Insufficient planning. All bowlers perform better with a clear plan, tweaked for the weaknesses of different batsmen. I have no doubt England did little-to-no forensic analysis (technical or statistical) on Australia's batsmen. So what are the bowlers to do? The English bowlers and particularly Carse would fall into a pattern of trying to bowl wicket-taking balls rather than build any type of pressure or exploit a given weakness. McDonald on the other hand is an analysis-man, and we had them covered. Also see the stupid fields Stokes would set. That is a symptom of poor preparation.
   
   
4. Awful fielding. No fielding coach and even though McCullum is trying to explain this now as "we couldn't pay the same salaries as the T20 franchises" McCullum has largely been anti-fielding. So players leak runs and drop catches. No reward for the bowlers and no ability to build pressure by stopping the scoreboard ticking over.
   
   
5. Pick a proper wicketkeeper. See point 4 and the absolute sodas missed.
   
   
6. Empower the players. This is garbage. You need to have minimum standards and when the players show they are not doing the extras, you make them do the extras.
   
   
7. Let the players relax and escape the scrutiny. This impacts the batsmen as well. Thing is, you do your relaxing after you do all the hard work. You don't plan a freakin week at the beach before you plan proper match practice.

I firmly believe that in our system, Brydon Carse would improve 20% simply because we respect all of the points above. He has something. In fact, they would all step up a level.

On the coach, the various English podcasts' consensus is they would like to keep McCullum but need him to change. Thing is, this is not a matter of evolving or managing conflict with differently. To use an example from another sport, Damien Hardwick.

McCullum has rejected most cricket orthodoxy (in some regards he has disparaged it). To keep him but with changes means have a coach sell a message to the players that cuts directly across what he has preached to this point. That is obviously stupid. It also means the coach would be selling a message he fundamentally does not believe in. "Guys, I know I said play your natural game but now I need you to curtail that and consider the match scenario." What a joke.

And none of this is with the benefit of hindsight either. Almost all of the missteps England made in the lead-up, were obvious in the lead-up as they were happening. These were all by McCullum's own design. He got exactly what he asked for.

 

[PhatBoy]

Most of the Bazball discussion is about the batting, probably because the WTF moments are much more obvious. This stupid philosophy has also crueller their bowlers. Here are the reasons:

1. Seems obvious, but the bowlers don't get much of a rest and are cooked by the end of a test.
   
   
2. Completely insufficient warm-up. The whole team was clearly unfit in the first two tests. Say what you want about the Lilac Hill or Canberra pitches compared to Optus or the Gabba, had they played a proper match the bowlers would have had proper match-practice under their belts. The other side of this issue is LINE AND LENGTH IS WHAT IT IS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PITCH. SO IS MATCH FITNESS. So not only were the bowlers unfit, they were so underdone they could not hit the right areas consistently.
   
   
3. Insufficient planning. All bowlers perform better with a clear plan, tweaked for the weaknesses of different batsmen. I have no doubt England did little-to-no forensic analysis (technical or statistical) on Australia's batsmen. So what are the bowlers to do? The English bowlers and particularly Carse would fall into a pattern of trying to bowl wicket-taking balls rather than build any type of pressure or exploit a given weakness. McDonald on the other hand is an analysis-man, and we had them covered. Also see the stupid fields Stokes would set. That is a symptom of poor preparation.
   
   
4. Awful fielding. No fielding coach and even though McCullum is trying to explain this now as "we couldn't pay the same salaries as the T20 franchises" McCullum has largely been anti-fielding. So players leak runs and drop catches. No reward for the bowlers and no ability to build pressure by stopping the scoreboard ticking over.
   
   
5. Pick a proper wicketkeeper. See point 4 and the absolute sodas missed.
   
   
6. Empower the players. This is garbage. You need to have minimum standards and when the players show they are not doing the extras, you make them do the extras.
   
   
7. Let the players relax and escape the scrutiny. This impacts the batsmen as well. Thing is, you do your relaxing after you do all the hard work. You don't plan a freakin week at the beach before you plan proper match practice.

I firmly believe that in our system, Brydon Carse would improve 20% simply because we respect all of the points above. He has something. In fact, they would all step up a level.

Agree on a few of these points, obviously the preparation in particular. And the fielding. Not having a full time fielding coach is ridiculous.

The bowling planning etc I differ a bit.

A bowler like Carse who you’ve highlighted: he’s not a skillful bowler in terms of his consistency. We probably take it for granted here because in Hazlewood, Cummins and more recently Boland we’ve had 3 guys operating every summer who rarely bowl a bad ball. But it is still REALLY common for international sides to have bowlers who bowl shit every over, especially if they are going to bowl quick and be really durable bowling at that speed. He’s got a big engine I think he showed everyone that. But some guys simply can’t bowl all the balls where you want them to.

I don’t think their field settings were THAT bad at times but coupled with how they bowled it’s like it’s greater (in a bad way) than the sum of its parts: ie. if you are slightly off with your fields to someone like Travis Head when he’s in form, and your bowling is bad as well, you’ll pay the price

 

[Black Diamond]

Agree on a few of these points, obviously the preparation in particular. And the fielding. Not having a full time fielding coach is ridiculous.

The bowling planning etc I differ a bit.

A bowler like Carse who you’ve highlighted: he’s not a skillful bowler in terms of his consistency. We probably take it for granted here because in Hazlewood, Cummins and more recently Boland we’ve had 3 guys operating every summer who rarely bowl a bad ball. But it is still REALLY common for international sides to have bowlers who bowl shit every over, especially if they are going to bowl quick and be really durable bowling at that speed. He’s got a big engine I think he showed everyone that. But some guys simply can’t bowl all the balls where you want them to.

I don’t think their field settings were THAT bad at times but coupled with how they bowled it’s like it’s greater (in a bad way) than the sum of its parts: ie. if you are slightly off with your fields to someone like Travis Head when he’s in form, and your bowling is bad as well, you’ll pay the price

I know what you mean. I'm not saying Carse would turn into a superstar. I am just saying all bowlers perform better when there is a clear plan. The example I always go back to is the improvement in Siddle and Hilfenhaus when Micky Arthur came in as Australian coach with McDermott the bowling coach. Suddenly a simple message and a better caption-coach combo turned the bowlers up a couple of notches.

 

[PhatBoy]

I know what you mean. I'm not saying Carse would turn into a superstar. I am just saying all bowlers perform better when there is a clear plan. The example I always go back to is the improvement in Siddle and Hilfenhaus when Micky Arthur came in as Australian coach with McDermott the bowling coach. Suddenly a simple message and a better caption-coach combo turned the bowlers up a couple of notches.

That’s fair but I think those two were always going to be good enough to implement a clear plan. I think Josh Tongue could, as he is a 5-balls an over type bowler.

I don’t think Carse could ever get to that level. He’s 3/4 balls an over and you’ve just to to try and limit the damage with the others and there’s only so far that planning and tactics can take you.


It can be a really fine line at times between what’s gone wrong - is it the plan of the losing team, the execution of the losing team, or how well the winning team played.
At times in this series there was a taste of all three.
In Brisbane when England bowled they were woeful during that first 30 overs and the planning and execution was simply terrible and Australia must have felt like they were having a net session.
Other times I thought they tried some things that weren’t too far off - okay we will see if we can get Travis Head cutting one down to third man and he nearly tried to oblige but either through great execution or blind luck he managed to beat the trap. There were some occasions where they had 7-8 guys in the offside and his ability to pick the gap off actual decent balls was really something special.
Sometimes they tried things and created chances and then dropped them cold.
It was a cacophony of shit for a lot of it.

 

[swingdog]

From the post-series comments, I feel Stokes is open to change (days of on-field humiliation will do that for you, I guess), but I'm not sure McCullum is or is capable.

 

[Rabish Binney]

Most of the Bazball discussion is about the batting, probably because the WTF moments are much more obvious. This stupid philosophy has also crueller their bowlers. Here are the reasons:

1. Seems obvious, but the bowlers don't get much of a rest and are cooked by the end of a test.
   
   
2. Completely insufficient warm-up. The whole team was clearly unfit in the first two tests. Say what you want about the Lilac Hill or Canberra pitches compared to Optus or the Gabba, had they played a proper match the bowlers would have had proper match-practice under their belts. The other side of this issue is LINE AND LENGTH IS WHAT IT IS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PITCH. SO IS MATCH FITNESS. So not only were the bowlers unfit, they were so underdone they could not hit the right areas consistently.
   
   
3. Insufficient planning. All bowlers perform better with a clear plan, tweaked for the weaknesses of different batsmen. I have no doubt England did little-to-no forensic analysis (technical or statistical) on Australia's batsmen. So what are the bowlers to do? The English bowlers and particularly Carse would fall into a pattern of trying to bowl wicket-taking balls rather than build any type of pressure or exploit a given weakness. McDonald on the other hand is an analysis-man, and we had them covered. Also see the stupid fields Stokes would set. That is a symptom of poor preparation.
   
   
4. Awful fielding. No fielding coach and even though McCullum is trying to explain this now as "we couldn't pay the same salaries as the T20 franchises" McCullum has largely been anti-fielding. So players leak runs and drop catches. No reward for the bowlers and no ability to build pressure by stopping the scoreboard ticking over.
   
   
5. Pick a proper wicketkeeper. See point 4 and the absolute sodas missed.
   
   
6. Empower the players. This is garbage. You need to have minimum standards and when the players show they are not doing the extras, you make them do the extras.
   
   
7. Let the players relax and escape the scrutiny. This impacts the batsmen as well. Thing is, you do your relaxing after you do all the hard work. You don't plan a freakin week at the beach before you plan proper match practice.

I firmly believe that in our system, Brydon Carse would improve 20% simply because we respect all of the points above. He has something. In fact, they would all step up a level.

On the coach, the various English podcasts' consensus is they would like to keep McCullum but need him to change. Thing is, this is not a matter of evolving or managing conflict with differently. To use an example from another sport, Damien Hardwick.

McCullum has rejected most cricket orthodoxy (in some regards he has disparaged it). To keep him but with changes means have a coach sell a message to the players that cuts directly across what he has preached to this point. That is obviously stupid. It also means the coach would be selling a message he fundamentally does not believe in. "Guys, I know I said play your natural game but now I need you to curtail that and consider the match scenario." What a joke.

And none of this is with the benefit of hindsight either. Almost all of the missteps England made in the lead-up, were obvious in the lead-up as they were happening. These were all by McCullum's own design. He got exactly what he asked for.

The ironic thing is that England's fielding coach was Paul Collingwood, who himself was a brilliant fieldsman in his day.

 

[Rabish Binney]

From the post-series comments, I feel Stokes is open to change (days of on-field humiliation will do that for you, I guess), but I'm not sure McCullum is or is capable.

Agree with this.

I think also the mindset of Robert Key has to change.

Key is on record as saying he doesn't want any bowler who can't bowl 140 kph+ in the test side. The ironic thing about that statement is there is a promising bowler from Yorkshire (George Hill) who has gotten big wraps from the media in the UK on him and some Fleet Street Scribes were thinking he was a smoky for the Ashes tour.

Hill is only 24 and he took 51 wickets @ 17 in the 1st division county championship this year.

Only problem is he bowls a around 130 kph. About the same pace as Scotty Boland so he doesn't fit in with Key's mantra.

 

[GreekLunatic]

We scored quicker then Baz ball

 

[Black Diamond]

McCullum has survived the review apparently, and will change his ways.

Big lol.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/the-times-sport/england-cricket-bosses-survive-ashes-review-but-bazball-project-faces-major-overhaul/news-story/4c34004678e3cb0f1320ed16f0d54c1b

 

[Rabish Binney]

McCullum has survived the review apparently, and will change his ways.

Big lol.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/the-times-sport/england-cricket-bosses-survive-ashes-review-but-bazball-project-faces-major-overhaul/news-story/4c34004678e3cb0f1320ed16f0d54c1b

Not really surprised, Think McCullum has them still thinking he's the messiah.

I see Geoff Boycott has gone absolutely nuts over it in The Telegraph (can't link it here as it's paywalled) as nobody has been held accountable for the mess that the tour was

And he's 100% right.

 

[PhatBoy]

Teams lose series. Teams win series. You don’t need an MBE for winning them and you don’t need to be shat out of the back end of the system for making errors in the process of losing them. Overall the tenure has been an undeniable success and Boycott being too much of a ‘**** to see it won’t change that fact.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Yeah the issue is that England simply lost a series. It's not as if the level of cricket they played here in Australia (against a team many describe as nothing special) was total dogshit again.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah the issue is that England simply lost a series. It's not as if the level of cricket they played here in Australia (against a team many describe as nothing special) was total dogshit again.

Well it wasn’t. Their level varied from dogshit to actually quite reasonable at times. Every time they had their moment to try and win the game, it fell apart. That’s happened to many teams, many times, on many tours or even home series.

Australia aren’t the best version of Australia that we’ve seen, certainly. But they are still the number 1 side in the world, at home.
England weren’t and aren’t anything amazing either and an even stronger Australia couldn’t beat them in 2023 and it was only rain realistically that prevented them from choking the entire series into a loss.

There’s a lot England need to fix. Throwing out everything isn’t going to achieve it simply because of one series.

 

[katana]

the one that really should be moved on is rob key. he is seriously unimpressive, just waffles on.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Well it wasn’t. Their level varied from dogshit to actually quite reasonable at times. Every time they had their moment to try and win the game, it fell apart. That’s happened to many teams, many times, on many tours or even home series.

Being competitive for a little bit and then totally capitulating in pressure moments is the hallmark of a dogshit Test cricket team ffs.

And that sums up every English team to tour here for the past 40 years, bar 2010/11. The current coach, despite all his bluster, hasn't made any meaningful difference.

There’s a lot England need to fix.

Clearly your hero doesn't agree. His team got smacked in Brisbane and he put it down to simply being overprepared.

 

[PhatBoy]

Being competitive for a little bit and then totally capitulating in pressure moments is the hallmark of a dogshit Test cricket team ffs.

And that sums up every English team to tour here for the past 40 years, bar 2010/11. The current coach, despite all his bluster, hasn't made any meaningful difference.



Clearly your hero doesn't agree. His team got smacked in Brisbane and he put it down to simply being overprepared.

No it isn’t. Being dogshit and getting belted from pillar to post is the hallmark of dogshit test cricket teams. I’ve followed one for 35 years. I’m pretty sure I know what it’s all about.



Last Ashes in Australia? England bowled out for 147 in two sessions on day one of the series, Australia had a 20 run lead before they lost their second wicket before ultimately leading by over 300 runs on the first innings. That’s dogshit.

Second test? Australia make it to 1-186 batting first and the most trouble they are in is 3-250 before declaring at nearly 500. England are 2-12 in reply, briefly give themselves some outside hope of mounting a LITTLE bit of resistance but are bowled out for 236. Game over.

Fourth test they lose wickets from the start and manage 185 in their first innings. I suppose you could accuse them of managing to mount a fight tantamount to some of the stages in this series just gone when Australia got to 5-175 in reply and they limited them to 267. Before being bowled out for 68.

They scraped a rain affected draw in the fourth test - which involved Australia cruising to 8-420 which is actually a lot less than they could have got…. Before England promptly lost 4-36. They cobbled together 290 but still ended up needing 400 to win and earned a draw 9 wickets down.

The one match where you would ALMOST accuse them of giving themselves a chance was the fifth test where they had Australia in some early trouble batting first, 3-12. Head made a century and Labuschagne made runs and bailed them out, Australia made 310, England promptly fell apart for 188 and 124 and that was the end of that.

That - never being in any game as a winning chance, beyond maybe an hour or two at most, is dogshit.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Lost the series in 11 days. And the coach had clearly lost the players within 2.

 

[PhatBoy]

Lost the series in 11 days. And the coach had clearly lost the players within 2.

Yes they seem incredibly unhappy with him. Losing a game always means the players don’t like, or don’t want to play for the coach

I agree he has probably lost 80 per cent of cricketers in England due to the fact that they pay three fifths of f**k all attention to county cricket.

But yeah, I doubt he’s ever going to lose a dressing room where basically their entire mantra is ‘we’ve got your back even if you fail.’