Opinion Best side 2018

[Catsmaninamerica]

Really, there are 4 spots up
For grabs.

Tuohy
Parfitt
Ablett
Cockatoo
Taylor
Smith
Menzel
Selwood
Selwood
Duncan
Bews
Henderson
Hawkins
Menegola
Guthrie
Dangerfield
Stewart
Blicavs

A exall certain starters.

So you need to pick who plays in the remaining 4 spots out of

Stanley, McCarthy, kolo, Kelly, buzza, murdoch, Gregson, Fogarty, thurlow, z Guthrie, jones,

I think it's kolo, Stanley, Kelly and jones

 

[Ratcat]

You are desperately clinging to that one flawed measure, huh?

No, I hope he comes good and gets involved to a greater extent.
When someone reveals stats like that things need changing.
Not more of the same.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

True ... but its a further distortion of the Rookie lists... the concept has had its day.

The rookies are expected to be able to play rather than be players who were on the cusp but been past over as being too raw etc. Its seems the Rookie list gets used more and more as a way to list known commodities on a 1 years deal.... If Crameri was delisted and were prepared to , we could have listed him as a delisted FA... (if the dogs did not offer him a contract).. but I think it would have meant 2 years.

My default position is we should give that type of position to locals that we being looked at and missed some how. Ruggles may be considered a failure but he played afl , got a couple of years on a list and will now add strength to the local comp.

Nah. Best available player regardless of location or age.
If the best is a local so be it.

 

[Landgraft]

No, I hope he comes good and gets involved to a greater extent.
When someone reveals stats like that things need changing.
Not more of the same.

The thing that needs changing is your lack of meaningful insight on where his game is at. Not just repeating a deeply flawed statistical average.

 

[Ratcat]

The thing that needs changing is your lack of meaningful insight on where his game is at. Not just repeating a deeply flawed statistical average.

Ok! then according to you where is his game at?
I'm going on what the facts say now, l'm not reading tea leaves.
Nothing personal Landgraft

 

[Cool Cat]

Id agree to a point that the dilution of the playing talent has had an affect..contributing to the small forwardline .. but I think there are multiple inputs to the success of tactical advantage.. I tend to think of it as action and re-action ... they build a deadly tank attacking weapon and then they build a better tank and then a better weapon etc. A new idea can make what has traditionally works not viable anymore.. like in the old days when they used Line Infantry .. worked really well for musket based war ..but ammunition evolved weapons evolved and by the time of the Maxim it was sure way to quickly lose a battle. And once invented..there is no going back. Those who cry for the old days fail to grasp that..

To a degree we won flags with a certain def setup that highlighted and exposed weakness of teams developed using previously hard held mantras ... then sides study winning stratagems and the game evolves ..a strength becomes a weakness. A small forwardline exposed anyone who had an tallish , slowish careful backline .. and as we had taller type who traditionally played on smalls it worked well on us. Our setup worked well when we could force the long kick but not great against this new setup. For years smalls have hurt us in isolation but the last couple of years has seen basically small forward in all roles forward.

Clubs and teams will evolve ..as you say.. Will a small pressure forwardline work just as well with a more mobile small backline? ..Does the game find a way to rid itself with its preoccupation with risk management , which in part has allowed the small forwardline to become so effective .. It will take a while for it to change and I think we will have a small setup for a while yet .. Rich won it with less talented smalls ..and other sides will try get more talent in the small setup. IMO , If we could some how get the ball down to our forwardline... to a forwardline of Danger and Ablett and Cockatoo and perhaps McCarthy or Fogerty etc.. most backline will be quaking with the thought of stopping us and having all sorts troubles getting the ball out...

I agree with this to an extent, but footy teams aren’t armies and games are not wars, and the examples of military advancement that you cite are technological in any case, rather than strategic or tactical which might create a more accurate analogy.

Coaches like to pretend that they know everything and that their process is the modern way to go and everything that came before is inferior and outdated. Until they regularly get beaten, of course, and they can no longer realistically claim to be some sort of evolutionary end point. Maybe success has more to do with personnel and the good management/fortune of compiling a strong list and training it well and running a game plan that suits its strengths and weaknesses, rather than this years tactics being an inevitable improvement on all others that have ever come before.

For instance, does anyone here seriously think that the 2017 tigers team would beat up on the 2007 cats if they played tomorrow?

 

[Cool Cat]

A discussion for another day, but MM has always had the talent. A guy doesn’t smoke Dale Steyn with disdain for multiple boundaries without it.

Ian Chappell was spot on identifying that the stage wasn’t suitably set in each innings he played for him to demonstrate it, until now. And he’s matured by taking the time away to correct his deficiencies.

Maybe (and you probably know more about cricket than me), but frankly his career so far has more in common with Murdoch’s than a genuine blue chipper, and he has played over 20 tests now. It will be a major disappointment if cockatoo’s career ends up following this path.

 

[Landgraft]

Ok! then according to you where is his game at?
I'm going on what the facts say now, l'm not reading tea leaves.
Nothing personal Landgraft

I'm happy for you to use averages if you must, but you should exclude the two games he barely played if you want an even vaguely accurate reflection on reality. I've already said this, though agree it is nothing personal.

 

[Ratcat]

I'm happy for you to use averages if you must, but you should exclude the two games he barely played if you want an even vaguely accurate reflection on reality. I've already said this, though agree it is nothing personal.

Hope you understand l'm for him not against him.
Compared to Murdoch may be an insult to Cockatoo for some, but Murdoch averaged 17 possessions and 4.3 tackles last season and is heavily criticized.
I think a part time midfield role will help him improve his numbers and confidence which is what he needs.

 

[Cataholic]

Maybe (and you probably know more about cricket than me), but frankly his career so far has more in common with Murdoch’s than a genuine blue chipper, and he has played over 20 tests now. It will be a major disappointment if cockatoo’s career ends up following this path.

Many said same about Hayden too.......it’s just a fact of life that some sportsman take longer than others to find their feet and fulfill their potential. Regular interruptions with injury can exacerbate that too.

But yes, I too hope Cocky hits his straps sooner than later, but patience can be a virtue and worth the wait.

 

[Landgraft]

Hope you understand l'm for him not against him.
Compared to Murdoch may be an insult to Cockatoo for some, but Murdoch averaged 17 possessions and 4.3 tackles last season and is heavily criticized.
I think a part time midfield role will help him improve his numbers and confidence which is what he needs.

Murdoch is also a 92 game player with 6 years on the list playing a different role. The comparison is irrelevant.

 

[Ratcat]

Murdoch is also a 92 game player with 6 years on the list playing a different role. The comparison is irrelevant.

I made the comparison to highlight the bias people have with their favorites.
Cocky was a 1st round draft pick let's not forget.

 

[Landgraft]

I made the comparison to highlight the bias people have with their favorites.
Cocky was a 1st round draft pick let's not forget.

I'm not following you.

 

[Spearman]

What are Cockatoo's stats per minutes played rather than games played?

 

[Partridge]

The thing that needs changing is your lack of meaningful insight on where his game is at. Not just repeating a deeply flawed statistical average.

How is it "deeply flawed"?

 

[Landgraft]

How is it "deeply flawed"?

It's a sample size of 11 games, including two where he went off early in the first quarter (so a huge influence on such a small set). Without those two games his numbers are around expectations for a young and developing small forward - basically the same as Daniel Rioli.

 

[Partridge]

It's a sample size of 11 games, including two where he went off early in the first quarter (so a huge influence on such a small set). Without those two games his numbers are around expectations for a young and developing small forward - basically the same as Daniel Rioli.

I'd argue it's a sample size of 32 games - his entire career.

He has played 32 games, at an average of 9.5 disposals per game. If you took out two games from 2017 (and I don't know why you would - all players get injuries and plenty get them early too), it changes to 30 games - average 9.9 disposals per game. Over his whole career it's certainly not a huge influence.

Right now the output doesn't match the hype or reputation. Not even close. Hopefully it'll improve in 2018.

 

[Ricketz]

I'd argue it's a sample size of 32 games - his entire career.

He has played 32 games, at an average of 9.5 disposals per game. If you took out two games from 2017 (and I don't know why you would - all players get injuries and plenty get them early too), it changes to 30 games - average 9.9 disposals per game. Over his whole career it's certainly not a huge influence.

Right now the output doesn't match the hype or reputation. Not even close. Hopefully it'll improve in 2018.

What arbitrary output would you suggest was acceptable for a guy who only played 11 games through the year as he struggled through injury interruptions? Got any analogues from other teams we can compare?

 

[Turbocat]

Nah. Best available player regardless of location or age.
If the best is a local so be it.

Yah... Best available is a cop out. Its such a fine line between players that 18 experts may well have 18 different players at the Rookie level.

 

[Partridge]

What arbitrary output would you suggest was acceptable for a guy who only played 11 games through the year as he struggled through injury interruptions? Got any analogues from other teams we can compare?

If a player is being spoken of as automatically in our best 22, I'd expect more than 9-10 touches and a goal a game. Promising absolutely, particularly for a medium forward*, and I think everyone is in agreement about the raw ability, but that's it.

(* - as a comparison, Jordan Murdoch averaged a goal a game and 12.8 disposals per match in 2014, his third season.)

 

[Turbocat]

I agree with this to an extent, but footy teams aren’t armies and games are not wars, and the examples of military advancement that you cite are technological in any case, rather than strategic or tactical which might create a more accurate analogy.

Coaches like to pretend that they know everything and that their process is the modern way to go and everything that came before is inferior and outdated. Until they regularly get beaten, of course, and they can no longer realistically claim to be some sort of evolutionary end point. Maybe success has more to do with personnel and the good management/fortune of compiling a strong list and training it well and running a game plan that suits its strengths and weaknesses, rather than this years tactics being an inevitable improvement on all others that have ever come before.

For instance, does anyone here seriously think that the 2017 tigers team would beat up on the 2007 cats if they played tomorrow?

All analogies are flawed to some degree. Some get riled up when comparing sport to war etc. and again I can see there is a point where there is no comparison at all... my thinking in trying to impart with war analogy was simply how there is an action and a reaction and there is no go back. I disagree that it was a purely tech issue. The change in tech caused a change in tactics..yes ... and one may say that about training methods etc in footy. The tech involved , the k's monitored , the work loads , the rotations etc etc have changed what was once the seen as cutting edge.... but there is no doubt that tech directly affects combat more than footy. Its more indirect in footy. Could they play the modern game on grounds that were presented in the 60's or 70's? Wet and muddy games are rare these days and certainly changes game style.

The 2007 V 2017 debate is of course impossible to tell. Id say the 2007 side trying play as it did..V 2017 side trying to play as it did would cause us great issues. We tend to focus on the GF and the obliteration of Port ..and tend to forget how close a Malthouse side got to us. And Rich would most certainly be better than that Pies group.

 

[Landgraft]

If a player is being spoken of as automatically in our best 22, I'd expect more than 9-10 touches and a goal a game. Promising absolutely, particularly for a medium forward*, and I think everyone is in agreement about the raw ability, but that's it.

(* - as a comparison, Jordan Murdoch averaged a goal a game and 12.8 disposals per match in 2014, his third season.)

So its fair for Murdoch to be evaluated on his third season, but Cocky has to have his first and second seasons included in his numbers as well? Poor form.

Eliminate the two injury games and he averages 10.9 disposals and 1.1 goals a game in his third season. 2014 Murdoch was 12.8 disposals but also .96 goals a game and never kicked three in a game like Cocky did. He also had an uninterrupted run at it, something which makes the comparison increasingly dubious. Give Cocky a year where his body holds up and I don't think the Murdoch numbers will be able to even come close to keeping up, thats why Nakia is best 22 when fit.

 

[ChookNorris]

If being a statistical equal to Jordan Murdoch is the new way we’re measuring Cockatoo we might as well delist him now.

 

[Ricketz]

If a player is being spoken of as automatically in our best 22, I'd expect more than 9-10 touches and a goal a game. Promising absolutely, particularly for a medium forward*, and I think everyone is in agreement about the raw ability, but that's it.

(* - as a comparison, Jordan Murdoch averaged a goal a game and 12.8 disposals per match in 2014, his third season.)

Murdoch played as an outside mid on the wing, its not a direct comparison you can make. Give Nakia 19 games on the wing and I am sure his stats would look a lot better than 9-10 touches a game. In 2014 Murdoch played 23 games - why ignore the injury interruption? I am with Landgraft, remove the partial games and injury affected games, and he would track better than Murdoch in 2014. About the only stats Murdoch is better in after an uninterrupted season in 2014 was the total disposals, of which he only amassed and extra 4 per game.

Also, who displaces Cocky from the HFF anyway? That makes him a pretty automatic selection. Murdoch kicks less goals, and we need him more on the wing, so who?

Again, how many more possessions for an 11 game, injury interrupted half forward flank would you expect for automatic selection, though? 9-10 touches, 4 tackles and 1 goal a game is not enough - I am just wondering who we have that is better under the circumstances.

Honestly, I cannot see him not being selected. He is a mature body, has loads of talent - we need to get games into him to get him up to speed.

 

[Ratcat]

Cockatoo averages 9.47 disposals a game over 3 years and 31 games that's his career so far to date.
Murdoch did 17 last year so he has improved by comparison stats v stats.
The comparison is, are they improving yr by yr looking their stats.
Murdoch seems to be doing that.