Best small forwards of the AFL era

[Guardian Hawk]

And Dunstall and Brereton...

Dunstall is actually 191 but I get (and agree with) your point

 

[Chopperdave]

Small Fwds are just players who aren't good enough to play midfield. Don't @ me you can't deny this.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Yair, that pesky old "Whole reason for their existence" stat.

If you're considering small forwards and Jeff Farmer isn't in your top 10, you're not considering small forwards.

Number 63 on the alltime goalkicking table, while C Rioli is 232 - managing to kick 1 more goal than Paul Medhurst (who I don't imagine features in anyone's top ten).

And if Phil Matera isn't in your considerations, you really aren't doing this right.

Did you not read the OP (or the post you were quoting)?

Of course I'm considering Farmer - I said he was a gun and named him the 8th best (non-key) forward of the last 30 years.

I also said Phil Matera was 11th on the list (which is clearly in consideration).

(And yes, of course goals are vitally important. It's just not the only matter of importance, particularly for players that played further up the ground. Otherwise Bill Mohr is a better forward than Wayne Carey and Taylor Walker is a better forward than Dermott Brereton)

P.S. Earlier today on the polls board (in the Betts v Rioli thread) I have raised Farmer, highlighting his exploits and emphasising how he belongs in the elite small forward conversation

 

[Bigger]

You aren't the "you" I was addressing. More the people who aren't considering Farmer or Matera.

And, I agree re considerations other than just goals - which is why it's especially important to consider Matera. He almost invented the defensive forward role.

Fck, I feel dirty doing all this Methcoast player boosting.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Well there are lies, damn lies and statistics but if you start factoring in the fact an AFL team averages around 30 disposals for one goal (I think from memory) then you realise how important even small higher averages are when it comes to actually scoring. For example I rate both of them above other genuine small forwards on the list like Betts. I agree with others though, I think if we are talking "classical" small forwards who genuinely stay around the forward 50 the vast majority, if not all of the time, then the list might be very different.

Thanks for the reply. I agree that goals are of significant importance and even small increases in goal average actually equate to bigger differences in actual impact.

With that said (whilst I could see the argument that he would be ahead of some others), I can't accept that Phil Matera was a better player than Eddie Betts. Betts was a 3 x All Australian to Phil Matera's 1. Betts had 5 seasons of 50+ goals to Matera's 3. Betts had a 75 goal season (Matera's best was 62 - though admittedly, from fewer games). Even though Matera's goal average was 2.17 to Betts' 1.83, that is in large part because Matera only played between ages 20-29. Over a similar period (I calculated ages 21-30) Betts' goal average is 2.15 - basically the same as Materas. The only reason Bett's overall goal average is a little lower is that he entered the comp as an 18 year old in a rubbish Carlton side and played well into his 30's which brought his average down a little (whilst Matera only played during his peak). In terms of totals, Betts kicked 640 goals whilst Matera kicked 389. Betts is miles ahead on assists (for the time they were recorded) and tackled more than Matera too.

The tipping point though is that Betts kicked 31 goals in 13 finals. Matera kicked 6 goals in 9 finals.

With all of that said - the comparison is much closer than many neutrals would realise. Their numbers are similar, with Matera a little more prolific but for a shorter time.

 

[Cotchins Hair Piece]

Just saw Wingard got a mention. FFS.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Betts is ahead on longevity (not that Rioli's peak was shorter but he retired much earlier) and was the superior goal kicker.

Rioli did basically every other aspect of the game better - got more of the ball, was a better pressure player, better tackler, better mark, etc.

Rioli also has the highest goal assist average of all time (well, since the stat was kept).

Foolish.

You can't really make a comparison on averages when one player stopped before the end of their prime, and one played on until he was very old (for footballer years). The non-prime years will dilute the average.

Taking your claim re: goal assists for example. Yes, Cyril has the higher average, but if you compare the best 7 seasons between them for goal assists:
Eddie has 5 of the top 7; and
Cyril has 2.

Compare peak to peak.

 

[Jibroni]

Alan Didak deserves a mention, a gun player.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Foolish.

You can't really make a comparison on averages when one player stopped before the end of their prime, and one played on until he was very old (for footballer years). The non-prime years will dilute the average.

Taking your claim re: goal assists for example. Yes, Cyril has the higher average, but if you compare the best 7 seasons between them for goal assists:
Eddie has 5 of the top 7; and
Cyril has 2.

Compare peak to peak.

Agreed - you'll note I didn't make a comparison between Eddie and Cyril in relation to goal assist averages. I did not because the difference is negligible and they are both elite in this era (2 of the best of all time).

(Incidentally, Eddie with the highest total on record and Cyril with the highest average)

The reason I mentioned that Cyril has the highest goal assist average on record was that the post I was responding to mentioned that Rioli was "one of the most overrated players of all time". People that say this usually do so because his goal tally is not remarkably high and are typically not aware of his standing in other metrics, including this one.

 

[Geoffa32]

Eddie Betts

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Guardian Hawk]

You can't really make a comparison on averages when one player stopped before the end of their prime, and one played on until he was very old (for footballer years). The non-prime years will dilute the average.
Compare peak to peak.

Also, on the peak thing, it's a real shame that Cyril decided to leave the game so early (though I understand he had achieved everything and the pull to home that exists for a Tiwi Islander, particularly with sick family members).

But the comparison to Betts (even though such different players) really emphasises the point. Betts best years were ages 28-31. He won the first of 3 consecutive All Australians at age 29. Rioli retired by 28. At 28, Betts was respected but his "all time great" legacy was forged after that point, as it is for many players now.

Whilst Rioli is still rightfully considered an elite player, he won 4 flags, 3 All Australian's and a Norm Smith all by age 26. Had he continued into his 30's, who knows how big a mark he could have left on the game.

To highlight how quickly he started, he had more of the ball in his debut year than any season in Betts career. He had 24 goals assists in his debut year and Betts reached 24 career goal assists in his 4th season. Even now, years after his retirement, Rioli will be only 32 at the start of next season - not that old in footballing terms these days. It's possible we missed his actual peak given for most players it is around 27-30/31 these days.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Also, on the peak thing, it's a real shame that Cyril decided to leave the game so early (though I understand he had achieved everything and the pull to home that exists for a Tiwi Islander, particularly with sick family members).

But the comparison to Betts (even though such different players) really emphasises the point. Betts best years were ages 28-31. He won the first of 3 consecutive All Australians at age 29. Rioli retired by 28. At 28, Betts was respected but his "all time great" legacy was forged after that point, as it is for many players now.

Whilst Rioli is still rightfully considered an elite player, he won 4 flags, 3 All Australian's and a Norm Smith all by age 26. Had he continued into his 30's, who knows how big a mark he could have left on the game.

To highlight how quickly he started, he had more of the ball in his debut year than any season in Betts career. He had 24 goals assists in his debut year and Betts reached 24 career goal assists in his 4th season. Even now, years after his retirement, Rioli will be only 32 at the start of next season - not that old in footballing terms these days. It's possible we missed his actual peak given for most players it is around 27-30/31 these days.

Yeah for sure Cyril came out of the blocks right away. There's a reason Betts was a slow burn and picked up as a rookie.

Again, just goes to show it's better to compare the prime years vs prime years, rather than career averages. Obviously will always skew to the fast starter, compounded by the fact Cyril retired before his twilight years (which inevitably have lower output unless your name is David Mundy).

It's why there really shouldn't be a debate that Betts was better. Comparable peaks, but Betts peaked and played much longer.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Yeah for sure Cyril came out of the blocks right away. There's a reason Betts was a slow burn and picked up as a rookie.

Again, just goes to show it's better to compare the prime years vs prime years, rather than career averages. Obviously will always skew to the fast starter, compounded by the fact Cyril retired before his twilight years (which inevitably have lower output unless your name is David Mundy).

It's why there really shouldn't be a debate that Betts was better. Comparable peaks, but Betts peaked and played much longer.

I think there is still a worthy debate to be had. Partly because they were such different players and also because despite Betts' extra years, they still won the same number of All Australians and Rioli has a Norm Smith and other BOG's in finals to add.

Betts was the superior goalkicker and has the longevity (I can understand if that is sufficient to place him ahead).

Rioli was a different player and can be argued, added more to the team. He played further up, was probably the best pressure/defensive player in the league and was a superior mark, superior tackler, got more of the ball, etc.

Even watching their extensive highlights reels tells the same story - Betts' is insane boundary goal after goal whereas Rioli is some goals but also huge speccies, then big tackles, then causing turnovers through pressuring 2 or 3 opponents, etc.

On the polls board, these players are compared and it is 53% Betts and 47% Rioli which feels about right (and highlights the debate is legitimate) with most sayng that Betts was the better "pure small forward" but Rioli the better player overall.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Betts clearly #1 in my book.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I think there is still a worthy debate to be had. Partly because they were such different players and also because despite Betts' extra years, they still won the same number of All Australians and Rioli has a Norm Smith and other BOG's in finals to add.

Betts was the superior goalkicker and has the longevity (I can understand if that is sufficient to place him ahead).

Rioli was a different player and can be argued, added more to the team. He played further up, was probably the best pressure/defensive player in the league and was a superior mark, superior tackler, got more of the ball, etc.

Even watching their extensive highlights reels tells the same story - Betts' is insane boundary goal after goal whereas Rioli is some goals but also huge speccies, then big tackles, then causing turnovers through pressuring 2 or 3 opponents, etc.

On the polls board, these players are compared and it is 53% Betts and 47% Rioli which feels about right (and highlights the debate is legitimate) with most sayng that Betts was the better "pure small forward" but Rioli the better player overall.

I guess one of the other issues is the arbitrary cut offs you've set out in the OP.

Guys like Chapman and Gray are cut out due to .1 or .2 goals/game, but Cyril left in. Both are better than Cyril.

Chapman as a player is a far superior player to Cyril. IMO same for Gray. Cyril just doesn't belong in a top 5 list. He's not a top 5 player of all those who've played forward. He's not a top 5 forward.

Betts belongs. Cyril does not.

 

[WilloTree]

How about Nick 'I see it but I don't believe it' Davis?

 

[adammania9]

Alan Didak deserves a mention, a gun player.

Very forgotten about since retirement, but probably another who truly played his best footy at half-forward and in the middle. When I think of great small forwards he wouldn't come to mind

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I guess one of the other issues is the arbitrary cut offs you've set out in the OP.

Guys like Chapman and Gray are cut out due to .1 or .2 goals/game, but Cyril left in. Both are better than Cyril.

Chapman as a player is a far superior player to Cyril. IMO same for Gray. Cyril just doesn't belong in a top 5 list. He's not a top 5 player of all those who've played forward. He's not a top 5 forward.

Betts belongs. Cyril does not.

I've acknowledged how arbitrary it is - it's simply a line to hep determine between players who spent chunks of time forward as opposed to players who were predominantly forward - otherwise Ablett Jnr, Dusty, etc would fill these lists like they do every other.

I've also posted a list that included Gray, Chapman, et al (post #6) and Gray and Chappy were indeed both top 5 and Rioli not.

Sounds like you have a fair idea of your own list, including who belongs and who doesn't. You should post it.

 

[adammania9]

It's hard to compare the best pure small forwards who never moved from their role (Milne, Betts) to more gifted forwards (Stevie J, Brent Harvey

Brent Harvey

Age

47

Ht

167cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

13.2

5star

HB

8.2

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.1

4star

G

1.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

0.6

3star

G

0.6

3star

) who naturally were given more midfield minutes as a result of their greater talent

The best pure small forward of the modern era to me is Cyril Rioli. The Seven team drooling over him all his career was nauseating but he was a truly special footballer and changed the way small forwards play the game for 20 years. Has 4 flags and a Norm (which he thoroughly deserved) to back up his case as well.

 

[Philth]

I never thought of B.Johnson as a small forward, but his stats don't lie.
The term "underrated" gets used too much these days, but I think it applies to Brad.
He certainly deserves to be top of your list.

 

[WilloTree]

Jamaine Jones

31

Jamaine Jones

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.0

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

4.2

3star

M

2.1

2star

T

3.8

5star

MG

159.6

3star

D

10.5

3star

K

6.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

4.0

5star

MG

196.5

3star

D

9.0

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.8

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.2

5star

MG

166.0

3star

not on the list?

Too soon?

 

[dee64]

It's hard to compare the best pure small forwards who never moved from their role (Milne, Betts) to more gifted forwards (Stevie J, Brent Harvey) who naturally were given more midfield minutes as a result of their greater talent

The best pure small forward of the modern era to me is Cyril Rioli. The Seven team drooling over him all his career was nauseating but he was a truly special footballer and changed the way small forwards play the game for 20 years. Has 4 flags and a Norm (which he thoroughly deserved) to back up his case as well.

How did Rioli change the way small forwards play? Aaron Davey was probably the 1st of the small forwards that applied defensive pressure.

Rioli was a very good footballer, who was part of a great team. But his on-field deeds were magnified tenfold because he was a media darling.

Betts, Phil Matera, Farmer and Milne had better careers but weren't fortunate enough to be part of a team that had a golden era.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

I'd have Phil Matera in the top 10 for sure.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Even watching their extensive highlights reels tells the same story - Betts' is insane boundary goal after goal whereas Rioli is some goals but also huge speccies, then big tackles, then causing turnovers through pressuring 2 or 3 opponents, etc.

Have you actually seen Betts play? If you think that he doesn't take huge speccies (multiple mark of the year nominations), make big tackles, pressure multiple contests into turnovers, then you haven't seen him play. When you kick 640 goals, most highlight reels are going to skew towards showing more goals, especially when most of them are flashy. Rioli has less than half the amount of goals, so they're naturally going to have to pad out his highlight reels with other things.
A few good marks in this top 10 and then the last one shows one of his pressure acts.


Then there's 14 mins that doesn't even include any of his Crows highlights.


Then there's 38 mins of highlights from both teams, which probably still neglects to show some of his massive marks and tackles.


I'm not saying that Rioli wasn't a great player, but trying to claim that he did things that Eddie didn't do, is just false.
The only difference is that Rioli played further up the ground more often, and for that, he got an extra 3 disposals a game over their careers.
Eddie had a 9 year patch (from 2009 to 2017) where he averaged nearly 50 goals a season (49.9). Rioli only kicked over 40 twice, with 47 being his highest.
EDIT: just for a comparison of how good that is, Hawkins has a 10 year stretch from 2012 to 2021 averaging 55.8.

I know you've set the parameters for this thread, but I just can't consider anyone who is 6ft or taller a small forward (medium forwards IMO), or anyone who spent considerable time in the midfield.
As far as actual small forwards go, Betts has to be #1 or pretty damn close.
I'm surprised that Ballantyne hasn't been mentioned, as much as I hated him.

 

[scoman]

Charlie Cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

31

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

likely to find his way onto this list in the future. Regularly putting up 50+ goal seasons now and should finish his career with 500+ goals and another AA or two. I was surprised when I looked it up just now to discover he only has 247 at this point. He started his career fairly slowly, though, only kicking 87 goals from 73 games at Adelaide. He is certainly making up for that these days.