Best Young Ruckman

[Turly]

What about Bailey?
Have been super-impressed with him this year.

Haha I was only taking the piss with renouf mate, but yeah Bailey has been fantastic

 

[Teffy]

The AA selectors have spoken.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/122844/default.aspx

No Berger.
No NicNat.

/thread

 

[Gibbo_88]

Good for Goldy for making the squad but seriously if you are going to hang your hat on something, do it on him having the most hit outs in a season since the 80's, it shouldn't be on AA selection. Adrian Anderson is on the selection panel, what coaching/playing experience does he have? Luke Darcy and Glen Jakovich shouldn't be allowed near anything like this either.

 

[cotter101]

Watch Leuenberger leave Goldy in his wake next year.

 

[Daz]

Watch Leuenberger leave Goldy in his wake next year.

Sure, because a basketball convert who only played 8 games of serious junior footy has hit his peak just after turning 23.

 

[cotter101]

Sure, because a basketball convert who only played 8 games of serious junior footy has hit his peak just after turning 23.

did I say Goldy has peaked?

 

[Daz]

did I say Goldy has peaked?

I'd just love to know how you think Leuey is going to 'leave Goldy in his wake next year'. What's he going to do, not play 2 games up forward so that his stats look marginally better? Oh and get fitter and play about 5% more TOG. Meanwhile, our basketball convert will continue his natural progression and start reading the play better and improving his contested marking.

The fact that Goldy was/is a project player yet he's already gone past the #4 pick in his draft class is staggering. The gap between the two will only get bigger.

 

[Liam Boy]

Watch Leuenberger leave Goldy in his wake next year.

Haha, and next year Aaron Black will pass Jonathan Brown.

 

[cotter101]

I'd just love to know how you think Leuey is going to 'leave Goldy in his wake next year'. What's he going to do, not play 2 games up forward so that his stats look marginally better? Oh and get fitter and play about 5% more TOG. Meanwhile, our basketball convert will continue his natural progression and start reading the play better and improving his contested marking.

The fact that Goldy was/is a project player yet he's already gone past the #4 pick in his draft class is staggering. The gap between the two will only get bigger.

No have you seen leuy since our second game vs GC has only just started to realize his potential and will be the better player out of the two.

 

[Gibbo_88]

I'd just love to know how you think Leuey is going to 'leave Goldy in his wake next year'. What's he going to do, not play 2 games up forward so that his stats look marginally better? Oh and get fitter and play about 5% more TOG. Meanwhile, our basketball convert will continue his natural progression and start reading the play better and improving his contested marking.

The fact that Goldy was/is a project player yet he's already gone past the #4 pick in his draft class is staggering. The gap between the two will only get bigger.

Ahhh...what? Cotter would have his reasons for thinking Leuey will leave Goldstein behind and you argue against that by assuming Goldstein is going to improve in all those areas due to him coming from a basketball background. It's just a difference of opinion then...

It would be great if every player improved on their past season. Unfortunately a lot of the time it doesn't happen. Exhibit A & B, Mitch Clark was in the AA squad in 2009 and look at him now, Justin Sherman started to look like a dangerous player in 2009 as well and has followed up with 2 very disappointing years.

 

[Daz]

Ahhh...what? Cotter would have his reasons for thinking Leuey will leave Goldstein behind and you argue against that by assuming Goldstein is going to improve in all those areas due to him coming from a basketball background. It's just a difference of opinion then...

It would be great if every player improved on their past season. Unfortunately a lot of the time it doesn't happen. Exhibit A & B, Mitch Clark was in the AA squad in 2009 and look at him now, Justin Sherman started to look like a dangerous player in 2009 as well and has followed up with 2 very disappointing years.

Justin Sherman's an anomaly. He was actually very good in '06 as well. Every 3 or so years he decides to have a good season. Clark has shown an ability to play as the #1 ruckman. I suspect if he had/wanted that opportunity again he'd be able to reproduce his AA squad form, or something very similar.

If Cotter has his reasons then he's keeping them close to his chest.

No have you seen leuy since our second game vs GC has only just started to realize his potential and will be the better player out of the two.

Yes I've seen him. Yes he's a very impressive ruckman but he's had an inferior year to Goldstein and when you look at their respective backgrounds it makes sense that Goldy has more improvement in him.

Sometimes I think people just look at the draft order and assume that eventually all the players' performances will match up to the ranking they received when they were 18. I'm yet to hear a logical argument that suggests Leuenberger has what it takes to go past Goldy.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Sometimes I think people just look at the draft order and assume that eventually all the players' performances will match up to the ranking they received when they were 18. I'm yet to hear a logical argument that suggests Leuenberger has what it takes to go past Goldy.

After 5 years in the system I would say Leuenberger was the right selection at pick 4 in the draft. He has lived up to a high 1st round draft pick so far. You mention that you think Goldstein is ahead of Leuey...why? Both had the no.1 ruck spot for their teams and while Goldstein averaged a few more hit outs per game overall, Leuey averaged more possessions per game overall. If you look at the second half of the year when I think Leuey was at least performing equal in the ruck to Goldstein, L averaged 35 hit outs while G averaged 36. The one clear advantage that I have noticed (have no stats on sprint times etc to back this up) is that Leuey is faster than Goldstein.

When they played against each other in round 9 they both had 24 hit outs, leuey was ahead in disposals by 3 and G had 6 more tackles. From memory, neither ruckman stood out and it was a boring game to sit through.

When they played against each other in round 18, G had 42 hit outs to L's 35, they both had 2 tackles, L had 6 more disposals and G kicked 2 goals (it was a bit of a belting and I can't recall if he kicked those goals before the game was non-competitive). Overall in the burgerstein battle L had 9 more disposals and G had 7 more hit outs. From those 2 games I think it is impossible to declare a clear winner.

I had a look on your clubs site but it doesn't state any injury history Goldstein has had over the years??? Leuey has had some rotten luck, injured his knee in 2008 and missed the rest of the season after playing 10 games. 2009, he had the bulk to actually compete and 3 games in, he injured his knee and was out for the season and he got a staph infection that made him lose 10 kg. He was basically back to the weight he was when he was drafted for the 2010 pre-season. G was a bit behind in football ability when he was drafted (assuming he didn't have any major injuries like L), while L had 2 seasons of serious injuries.

Both ruckman had over 700 hit outs for the season which is the most since Dempsey in the 80's Both are extremely valuable to their team and neither player really has a case for being ahead of the other at this stage IMO.

 

[BomberJacqui]

NicNat is a better in the ruck contest than all of them. He has more influence on a game than all of them. The only thing he needs to do is improve his kicking (which has dramatically this season) and consistency and he won't be in polls about who is the best ruckman but in polls about who is the best player in the comp.

Ha? well by your logic bellchambers is up there he had the best percentage of advantage hitout then all other ruckmen....

Goldstein by the biggest margain possible.

 

[Daz]

After 5 years in the system I would say Leuenberger was the right selection at pick 4 in the draft. He has lived up to a high 1st round draft pick so far. You mention that you think Goldstein is ahead of Leuey...why? Both had the no.1 ruck spot for their teams and while Goldstein averaged a few more hit outs per game overall, Leuey averaged more possessions per game overall. If you look at the second half of the year when I think Leuey was at least performing equal in the ruck to Goldstein, L averaged 35 hit outs while G averaged 36. The one clear advantage that I have noticed (have no stats on sprint times etc to back this up) is that Leuey is faster than Goldstein.

When they played against each other in round 9 they both had 24 hit outs, leuey was ahead in disposals by 3 and G had 6 more tackles. From memory, neither ruckman stood out and it was a boring game to sit through.

When they played against each other in round 18, G had 42 hit outs to L's 35, they both had 2 tackles, L had 6 more disposals and G kicked 2 goals (it was a bit of a belting and I can't recall if he kicked those goals before the game was non-competitive). Overall in the burgerstein battle L had 9 more disposals and G had 7 more hit outs. From those 2 games I think it is impossible to declare a clear winner.

I had a look on your clubs site but it doesn't state any injury history Goldstein has had over the years??? Leuey has had some rotten luck, injured his knee in 2008 and missed the rest of the season after playing 10 games. 2009, he had the bulk to actually compete and 3 games in, he injured his knee and was out for the season and he got a staph infection that made him lose 10 kg. He was basically back to the weight he was when he was drafted for the 2010 pre-season. G was a bit behind in football ability when he was drafted (assuming he didn't have any major injuries like L), while L had 2 seasons of serious injuries.

Both ruckman had over 700 hit outs for the season which is the most since Dempsey in the 80's Both are extremely valuable to their team and neither player really has a case for being ahead of the other at this stage IMO.

Nice thoughts.

I'm happy to call hitouts a draw. They're also almost identical in hitouts to advantage.

If there's a deficiency in Goldy's game it's his contested marking. However, at the same time, I wouldn't call it a feature of Leuey's game either.

Leuey certainly finds a bit more uncontested footy (I think around 2 possessions a game more than Goldy). You can put that down to being a more experienced footballer.

I think you're underselling Goldy's speed and agility a tad, it's still a feature of his game, even if he's not quite as quick as Leuey.

In my opinion, Goldy is a better kick of the footy. I have very little evidence to back that up but I'd say he's second only to Cox in the league in that regard. He has such a smooth kicking action for a big guy.

The area Goldy really excels at is the stoppages. He is another midfielder at ground level. His ability to find a target by hand under pressure is amazing. His tackling is another feature of his game. He puts immense pressure on his opponents. He's 4th at the club for clearances and 3rd for tackles.

Goldy also kicked 8 more goals than Leuey this year. I can't really explain that one.

You're right, Leuey has had some rotten luck with injury. It would be hypocritical of me to discount that because us North supporters are always quick to point out Ziebell and Cunnington's injuries as a reason for their lack of fitness. The thing is though, a lack of fitness affects your ability to spread from the contest, not perform at the contest itself. So I can't see Leuey closing the gap in tackles, clearances or ever having Goldy's uncanny ability to find teammates by hand under pressure. Both players should improve their game around the ground. Leuey through a greater fitness base and Goldy through a better game sense.

As for this year, I think it's widely agreed that Goldy was the 2nd best ruckman in the comp. If you like your Supercoach stats, he was the 12th best player on average in that and about 10 points per game better than Leuey. If you prefer to go on 'expert opinion', he and Cox are the only two ruckmen in the AA squad.

 

[Gibbo_88]

If there's a deficiency in Goldy's game it's his contested marking. However, at the same time, I wouldn't call it a feature of Leuey's game either.

I think you're underselling Goldy's speed and agility a tad, it's still a feature of his game, even if he's not quite as quick as Leuey.

In my opinion, Goldy is a better kick of the footy. I have very little evidence to back that up but I'd say he's second only to Cox in the league in that regard. He has such a smooth kicking action for a big guy.

As for this year, I think it's widely agreed that Goldy was the 2nd best ruckman in the comp. If you like your Supercoach stats, he was the 12th best player on average in that and about 10 points per game better than Leuey. If you prefer to go on 'expert opinion', he and Cox are the only two ruckmen in the AA squad.

Earlier in the year and all of last year a lot of people on the brisbane board were commenting on how Leuey had terrible hands and he was a bit soft but in the last 6-7 games something clicked and he started taking pack marks.

I don't mean to undersell Goldstein's speed at all, he is in no way a slow ruckman. I'm basing this on seeing Leuey chase down a few players that he physically shouldn't be able to this year such as Rodan.

I've looked over both players stats the last few weeks a few times and I think Goldstein had a higher kick to handball ratio and a higher disposal efficiency so that backs up that he may be a better kick.

Hopefully we get to see these 2 guys stay at this level for a long time. We've seen Clark and Jamar pop up and have an outstanding season before disappearing. Not sure what happened with Jamar this year but Clark wasn't a great tap ruckman in 09, he was average it was his work around the ground and contested marking that made him so good and there is no real reason why he couldn't perform almost as well playing as a CHF/utility for the past 2 seasons. I don't really regard the AA team as expert opinion, it's just a bit of a novelty. Anderson, Jackovich and Darcy as part of the selection panel is a bit of a joke to me. Every year there are some dodgy choices, but that's just what I think.

Will be interesting to see the progression of both teams over the next few years with all the young midfielders standing at the feet of two ruckman that are dominating in hit outs. At least we can agree that Naitanui is not the best young ruckman It's all still potential with him at this stage. It's good for a change to have a discussion with someone on bf without it going along the usual lines of "player x is better because they play for my team so you're wrong".

 

[Teffy]

Good for Goldy for making the squad but seriously if you are going to hang your hat on something, do it on him having the most hit outs in a season since the 80's, it shouldn't be on AA selection. Adrian Anderson is on the selection panel, what coaching/playing experience does he have? Luke Darcy and Glen Jakovich shouldn't be allowed near anything like this either.

The AA selectors or Gibbo_88?

Hmmm, decisions, decisions.

Don't take this personally, but I think I will go with the AA selectors.

 

[alex 17]

This thread is a joke Natanui should hardly be classified as a ruckman at the moment.
He spends like 20% if that of actual game time rucking because Cox' ruckwork is far superior than his for starters.
Natanui will occassionally get a freakish hit out but that about defines him as a player at the moment. Being freakish without being consistent.

Id like to see how he would go competing 90% of the time in the ruck for 22 straight games like Goldy has done this year.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Luke Lowden.

 

[Patron]

This thread is a joke Natanui should hardly be classified as a ruckman at the moment.
He spends like 20% if that of actual game time rucking because Cox' ruckwork is far superior than his for starters.
Natanui will occassionally get a freakish hit out but that about defines him as a player at the moment. Being freakish without being consistent.

Id like to see how he would go competing 90% of the time in the ruck for 22 straight games like Goldy has done this year.

I along with most west coast supporters believe that naitanui is is a better tap ruckmen that cox.
Naitanui is already one of the best ruckmen in the comp just need consistency throughout games. Saying he can barely be classified as a ruckmen is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Belltower]

This thread is a joke Natanui should hardly be classified as a ruckman at the moment.
He spends like 20% if that of actual game time rucking because Cox' ruckwork is far superior than his for starters.
Natanui will occassionally get a freakish hit out but that about defines him as a player at the moment. Being freakish without being consistent.

Id like to see how he would go competing 90% of the time in the ruck for 22 straight games like Goldy has done this year.

Freakish hitout, what are you talking about, he consistently wins his hitouts when he is in the ruck. He is very consistent but is playing a different role to goldstein because we have the AA ruckman in our side, his ability allows him to play with another ruckman in the side with the current sub rule, most others can't.

Currently on stats etc Goldy is ahead of him fair enough, and he is a very good player but NicNat hasn't had the need to ruck for that length of time and will not until Cox retires. NicNat impacts like no other ruckman when he is around the ball and his centre bounce tapwork is up with the best.

Hard to compare against each other because they both missed the 1st game of the year

 

[Patron]

Anyone who thinks Natanui is the best young ruckman at the moment should be embarassed.

Goldstein averages more disposals, handballs, kicks, marks, hitouts, clearances, tackles. The only area natanui leads him is 15 goals to 13 goals.

Not saying Nat won't get better but at this stage goldstein is ahead in all areas and is the best "young ruckman".

Naitanui averages more handballs...

 

[Patron]

Stats analysis.
Goldstein

Disposals 13.7 Kicks 7.2 Handball 6.5 Marks 3.5 Hitouts 35.3 Clearances 4 tackles 4.4 Goals 0.6 behind 0.3
Contested Possesions 8.3
Contested Marks 0.8
Bounces 0
1% 3.3
TOG = 89%

Naitanui
Disposal 13 kicks 5.1 handballs 7.9 Marks 2.4 Hitouts 18.9 Clearances 3.7 Tackles 3.9 Goals 0.8 Behinds 0.5
Contested Possessions 9.6
contested Marks 1.5
1% 3.7
Bounces 0.5
TOG 71%

Looking at things statistically most stats are actually fairly close. Given the fact that naitanui is only playing 71% gametime compared to goldsteins 89% you would actually think that after cox leaves Naitanui would be well ahead in many of these stats. The biggest differences between the stats are HO obviously due to Naita playing less time in the ruck due to cox, TOG% again due to cox, Bounces because NN can run, and contested marks which came as a surprise to me that goldstein averaged so few.

 

[Daz]

Let's not forget that Goldy is a much better user of the ball, by hand and foot.

I'd assume Naitanui averages more contested marks because he plays forward quite a lot.

How's Naitanui's endurance? When Cox does eventually retire how much of the game will he be able to play in the ruck? I'd imagine given the intensity he plays at he'd still need a fair amount of time on the bench.

 

[Patron]

Nobody's saying that Naitanui is better than Goldstein now. But its pretty close already and Naitanui will end up the better player

 

[the big lebowski]

Its not really close right now. Goldy is easily better than Nic Nat. Nic Nat has more upside though given his freakish attributes and hence is may well go past Goldy one day.

But right now Goldy is easily the best young ruckmen in the game.