Big Barnaby's hard yakka under Pagan

[Dramoth]

Didn't Mal Michael say he had lost the passion for the game? Was that Leigh Matthews fault? Stewie Dew gives the game away at 27, is that Mark Williams fault? Steven Oliver never quite found the passion. Was that David Parkin's fault?

Why do players like Bruce Doull, Robert Harvey, Matty Richardson achieve such longevity in the game despite playing under a variety of coaches, some very good, some very ordinary? For these types of players football is their passion & of course they go about it in a professional way. Was football ever really Barnaby's #1 passion. We know he was a pretty handy rower, in his younger years. He only found his way into AFL ranks 7 years ago, suggesting that as a youngster football wasn't the be all & end all for him. He didn't exactly set the world on fire at Port & he was never more than an honest battler at the Blues & only carried the # 1 ruck mantle due to the lack of any opposition for that role at Carlton.

I have admired the way he has toiled at Carlton, but it is no surprise that he has lost the passion. He never quite had the enthusiasm of a Fev or a Kade Simpson. It wouldn't be too hard to believe that a strict coach like Pagan would become tiresome to someone who has never seen football as the be all & end all.

Because these guys all played before the professional era in football and were only part-time players. You know... players who played for the club and only got a match fee as their payment and not the mega salaries that the players are getting today. Football to them was their hobby and not their living (although they made good money from it from the match fees) and they didnt have the same sort of binding contracts that the players today do to hold them to the club.

Their greatest pleasure was pulling on the clubs jersey each saturday and running out for the club. Not like the players of today who will drop a club and go where the money is at the drop of a hat if their current club doesnt offer them enough money. There is very little passion left in the players as it is their job that they do 7 days a week... not something that they do a couple of times a week and then once on the weekends.

Some players burn out from the stress of all this training... I know about burnout from career as a computer programmer... the stress is intense and if you load up your working hours, you will suffer.

But hey, football is entertainment these days and we pay those big bastards the big bucks to play for our clubs so they should be able to take the stress and the strain of training and playing 10 months of the year, 6-7 days a week. AND they are playing for OUR beloved clubs so why shouldnt they feel the same sort of passion that we do about the club...

 

[PowerKat]

Barnaby never quite warmed to Melbourne either, and took his now wife with him who missed 'home' while there. It's a fact that they were both keen to return to Adelaide and also to enjoy life a little more than being a full-time AFL player permits. I was surprised Barny played on last year - expected him to give it away at the end of 05.

It sure doesn't all come down to the coach in this case, and the article reflects that.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Blue Thunder,

Could you please outline Pagan's great qualities?

1). Experience

2). Previous Success

3). Determination and grit

4). Optimism

5). Doesnt settle for mediocrity

6). Loyalty

7). Preparation

Lets not forget he developed a very stong unit of players whilst at Nth and has an exceptional U19 & Reserve coaching record so he certainly can spot and develop talent in my opinion.

However in saying this I am of the belief that he needs to change his style and warm to the players more (times change) and I have said this previously.

BUT.... He has coached a team full of inadequately skilled players and players not AFL Ready due to age/experience/talent. This would add to any frustration felt by any coach and would therefore affect his demeanor.

The way I see it is that these things take care of themselves. I'm sure he has heard all the criticism and knows where he is at and at the end of the day results will define whether he remains long term or not.

 

[mediumsizered]

1). Experience

2). Previous Success

3). Determination and grit

4). Optimism

5). Doesnt settle for mediocrity

6). Loyalty

7). Preparation

Lets not forget he developed a very stong unit of players whilst at Nth and has an exceptional U19 & Reserve coaching record so he certainly can spot and develop talent in my opinion.

However in saying this I am of the belief that he needs to change his style and warm to the players more (times change) and I have said this previously.

BUT.... He has coached a team full of inadequately skilled players and players not AFL Ready due to age/experience/talent. This would add to any frustration felt by any coach and would therefore affect his demeanor.

The way I see it is that these things take care of themselves. I'm sure he has heard all the criticism and knows where he is at and at the end of the day results will define whether he remains long term or not.

This is a refreshing & well thought out post, BT. You have summed Pagan up very well & I certainly agree with your comment that he needs to change his style & warm to the players more. His relationship with Fev is an indication that he is capable of doing this. I just think he is a bit fearful of being seen to let down his guard too much.

 

[Silvagnis]

1). Experience

Should we give Parkin the job?

2). Previous Success

Ditto.

3). Determination and grit

Just like Grant Thomas?

4). Optimism

Ditto.

5). Doesnt settle for mediocrity

Back to back spoons isn't mediocre but pathetic.

6). Loyalty

Weren't Whitnall and Fevola offered around last year?

7). Preparation

We start well in games and the pre-season before falling apart at the seams once they work out his game plan.

Lets not forget he developed a very stong unit of players whilst at Nth and has an exceptional U19 & Reserve coaching record so he certainly can spot and develop talent in my opinion.
However in saying this I am of the belief that he needs to change his style and warm to the players more (times change) and I have said this previously.

BUT.... He has coached a team full of inadequately skilled players and players not AFL Ready due to age/experience/talent. This would add to any frustration felt by any coach and would therefore affect his demeanor.

How much development have we seen in the games of talented players such as Waite, Fisher, Russell and Blackwell in their time under Pagan?

The way I see it is that these things take care of themselves. I'm sure he has heard all the criticism and knows where he is at and at the end of the day results will define whether he remains long term or not.

Even the most opportimistic fan can't see us finishing any higher than the bottom and another bottom two finish would almost certainly see him sacked.

 

[BlueBelle]

Even the most opportimistic fan can't see us finishing any higher than the bottom and another bottom two finish would almost certainly see him sacked.

We won't finish on the bottom in 2007

 

[Silvagnis]

We won't finish on the bottom in 2007

Anything is possible but finishing second last still won't save him.

 

[BlueWorld]

We won't finish on the bottom in 2007

Heard the same thing about 2006.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Should we give Parkin the job? Parkin has been the clubs most successful coach - never knock experience.

Ditto.

Just like Grant Thomas? Grant Thomas is not in the same league.

Ditto.

Back to back spoons isn't mediocre but pathetic. Remember the talent we have had to work with.

Weren't Whitnall and Fevola offered around last year? Wasnt Pagan the one that talked Fev into staying?

We start well in games and the pre-season before falling apart at the seams once they work out his game plan. I put this down to talent, not game plan.

How much development have we seen in the games of talented players such as Waite, Fisher, Russell and Blackwell in their time under Pagan? Waite had his best season 2 years ago, injury has interupted his progress.

Fisher was pick 72 and has played 90% of his career so far in the seniors. In my view he has progressed exceptionally well.

Russell's 2nd year just gone and played 10 games. Is only 20 years old. How old was Brett Ratten when he established himself (22 years). How old was Bradley when he came to the club?

Blackwell has had a very good year in my opinion. Would have played seniors last year but broke his jaw. Is developing nicely.

Even the most opportimistic fan can't see us finishing any higher than the bottom and another bottom two finish would almost certainly see him sacked.

I agree another bottom finish will see him sacked but in my view the list now has some talent to work with and the players are getting to and age and experience level that should improve our performance.

Let me mention - Simpson, Walker, Murphy, Kennedy, O'Hailpin, Betts, Fevola & Scotland have all developed very well under Pagan.

 

[Chezza]

I agree another bottom finish will see him sacked but in my view the list now has some talent to work with and the players are getting to and age and experience level that should improve our performance.

Let me mention - Simpson, Walker, Murphy, Kennedy, O'Hailpin, Betts, Fevola & Scotland have all developed very well under Pagan.

Sorry if I got this wrong but you mention in the same post that the team's poor performance was down to talent but then say how the team has talent to work with?? Confusing.

And FWIW, my opinion regarding your description of the coaches qualities:

Optimism: Anyone can be optimistic. What else is he gonna say? 'We're pathetic-we have no chance of future success'?
Previous Success: I wouldn't really call that a quality or a characteristic.
Doesn't Settle For Mediocrity: How have you measured this?
Preparation: Again, how have you measured this against other coaches?
Experience: Again, not sure if that'd be always classed as a quality. In terms of the way professional football is played these days, he has no more experience than say, Worsfold or Roos. In fact they're more recent playing experience probably puts them in a better position.
Loyalty: Again, how have you measured this?
Determination and grit: Yeah, I'd probably give you that one but IMO Denis' grit and determination ain't gonna improve Carlton's performances.

Just my thoughts anyway............

 

[BlueBelle]

Heard the same thing about 2006.

True, but...

I agree another bottom finish will see him sacked but in my view the list now has some talent to work with and the players are getting to and age and experience level that should improve our performance.

Let me mention - Simpson, Walker, Murphy, Kennedy, O'Hailpin, Betts, Fevola & Scotland have all developed very well under Pagan.

I agree with what BT has said above. There are no excuses next year because the players have improved (I honestly believe that) and Pagan needs to implement a game that suits the players he has. If he can't do that and we finish on the bottom again then Pagan should get the boot IMHO. (cue Audas)

 

[BlueWorld]

True, but...



I agree with what BT has said above. There are no excuses next year because the players have improved (I honestly believe that) and Pagan needs to implement a game that suits the players he has. If he can't do that and we finish on the bottom again then Pagan should get the boot IMHO. (cue Audas)

Every other side has players who will improve. Plenty of players improved this year but we still finished bottom. The game is changing rapidly. Is Pagan & Carlton changing rapidly enough to keep up with the more innovative clubs & coaches?

 

[BlueBelle]

Every other side has players who will improve. Plenty of players improved this year but we still finished bottom. The game is changing rapidly. Is Pagan & Carlton changing rapidly enough to keep up with the more innovative clubs & coaches?

No they are not, which is part of the problem. Pagan has to change his tactics next year in order to keep up with the rest of them, otherwise he is gawn!

 

[Blue Thunder]

Sorry if I got this wrong but you mention in the same post that the team's poor performance was down to talent but then say how the team has talent to work with?? Confusing.

And FWIW, my opinion regarding your description of the coaches qualities:

Optimism: Anyone can be optimistic. What else is he gonna say? 'We're pathetic-we have no chance of future success'?
Previous Success: I wouldn't really call that a quality or a characteristic.
Doesn't Settle For Mediocrity: How have you measured this?
Preparation: Again, how have you measured this against other coaches?
Experience: Again, not sure if that'd be always classed as a quality. In terms of the way professional football is played these days, he has no more experience than say, Worsfold or Roos. In fact they're more recent playing experience probably puts them in a better position.
Loyalty: Again, how have you measured this?
Determination and grit: Yeah, I'd probably give you that one but IMO Denis' grit and determination ain't gonna improve Carlton's performances.

Just my thoughts anyway............

Thats the great thing about opinion's we all have our own and there is always an element of truth in each.

What I can say and FWIW I have had the priviledge of being present during the players address by Brittain and Pagan. I Sat next to Corey McKernan during Brittains post match against St Kilda a couple of years ago and was honestly not inspired at all with his address. He did say some interesting things though that make sense in hindsight.

The following year I witnessed Pagan address the players and it was like chalk and cheese. Despite what people think of Pagan he definately has the right credentials to coach, whether he needs to make changes to his style or not will be revealed in the fullness of time.

 

[smooking39]

He was always playing defensive when he should have been playing an attacking style of play. The game is getting faster and IMO, you aren't going to win too many games playing defensive footy. It's all about the attack of the ball!!!

couldnt you say that sydney have been playinf defensive football and i hear they win a few games

 

[BlueBelle]

couldnt you say that sydney have been playinf defensive football and i hear they win a few games

True... but they do it well whereas we don't!

 

[audas]

So Pagan now has some quality players and this year is going to be the first real chance he has had to work with a team of AFL standard. If it does turn out that the reasons for carltons poor finishes are due to things other than simply Pagan, I wonder if people around here will have the guts to stand up and admit they were wrong. If at the end of next season we have had a repeat of the one just gone Ill put my hand up and say I was wrong. Can any of you , or will it be a new excuse, like anyone could have coached this team with all the quality picks we have had.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

So Pagan now has some quality players and this year is going to be the first real chance he has had to work with a team of AFL standard. If it does turn out that the reasons for carltons poor finishes are due to things other than simply Pagan, I wonder if people around here will have the guts to stand up and admit they were wrong. If at the end of next season we have had a repeat of the one just gone Ill put my hand up and say I was wrong. Can any of you , or will it be a new excuse, like anyone could have coached this team with all the quality picks we have had.

What a simple way of looking at a circumstance!
Number 1.. Pagan has shown little tactical nouse.
Number 2.. Will you ******** up and piss off is Pagan is sacked half way through the year???

what part of the players hate him .. and that can never be fixed cant you understand???

Its not hate with respect... its hate and no respect!!!

 

[mediumsizered]

What a simple way of looking at a circumstance!
Number 1.. Pagan has shown little tactical nouse.
Number 2.. Will you ******** up and piss off is Pagan is sacked half way through the year???

what part of the players hate him .. and that can never be fixed cant you understand???

Its not hate with respect... its hate and no respect!!!

All audas is saying is that if Carlton come out next season & show some good form, win more games than the last couple of seasons & show definite signs that they are heading in the right direction, will the knockers be prepared to admit they were wrong. Audas has said he will if they perform poorly & so will I & probably many others. But will you & the handful of knockers admit the error of your ways should things start going well, that is the question?

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

A bottom finish in 2007 = 2 positives:

• Dennis Pagan's immediate sacking
• Matthew Kruezer > Luenberger

Then again, these 2 can still probably be acheived with a bottom 2 finish. At least that way, we won't get these wooden spoon jibes 24/7.