BBL Big Bash League Expansion Thread

[Howard Littlejohn]

Based upon population alone, the GC and Canberra are light years ahead of everyone outside NZ. Splitting Brisbane would be a bad idea, but the addition of GC negates that...77km might as well be 5000. Same with Canberra. You also have two stadiums ready to go. Everywhere else in Australia, however, clashes with existing teams, or is unviable...

NZ would be dependant upon them happily reorganising their season to fit the BBL, and having two sides...Auckland and Wellington in the north and south...

If you went for a nine team league, you would have eight games each - equal home and away with no double ups, and a bye is redundant when every game is played separately...

Newcastle has a bigger population than Canberra, although the Canberra region [including Queanbeyan, Yass, Goulburn at a stretch] pretty much matches it.

Then again the Hunter region, including Newcastle, is something like 1.1m. If it was a Hunter team, based in Newcastle, and IF it could get support from across the region that's a population close to Adelaide's. The economy is not the best though (admittedly nor is Adelaide's but its still better the Newy and surrounds; the mainland capitals all have advantages other places do not). There also is no venue in Newcastle. Newcastle #1 is barely capable opf holding a List A game, no capacity or broadcast facilities for a BBL game.

As for NZ. Why would they want to be at the beck and call of Australia? (Other than the fact they are already cricketing vassal states under Australia, India and England's overlordship like every nation)
Auckland could stand alone, with a separate North island team playing mostly from the Cake Tin, South Island could be a third team but Christchurch would ned upgrades and they still have other rebuilding which takes priority. But that is a long way down the track, if at all.

 

[Gibbke]

Newcastle has a bigger population than Canberra, although the Canberra region [including Queanbeyan, Yass, Goulburn at a stretch] pretty much matches it.

Then again the Hunter region, including Newcastle, is something like 1.1m. If it was a Hunter team, based in Newcastle, and IF it could get support from across the region that's a population close to Adelaide's. The economy is not the best though (admittedly nor is Adelaide's but its still better the Newy and surrounds; the mainland capitals all have advantages other places do not). There also is no venue in Newcastle. Newcastle #1 is barely capable opf holding a List A game, no capacity or broadcast facilities for a BBL game.

As for NZ. Why would they want to be at the beck and call of Australia? (Other than the fact they are already cricketing vassal states under Australia, India and England's overlordship like every nation)
Auckland could stand alone, with a separate North island team playing mostly from the Cake Tin, South Island could be a third team but Christchurch would ned upgrades and they still have other rebuilding which takes priority. But that is a long way down the track, if at all.

Pretty much. It's not just all about pop figures, but the ability for the place to carry a side, which GC and Canberra can do. I'd imagine GC doing a better job with a cricket side for a month each year abead of their efforts in every other professional sport, especially with the very glossy high profile nature of the comp, and the ACT has a great track record in cricket. Newcastle could but just doesn't do it, even though they're one big state government grant from fixing the stadium issue...if that's likely...

NZ might have to sleep with the enemy. The BBL pays for Australian cricket to a large extent, and they'd be nuts not to seriously examine tapping into this. They've always been dependant in regards to tours of the past, where an Australian opponent would spend a few weeks in NZ afterwards, and they've struggled keeping the tests going, at one stage a few years back axing one or two for extra T20's to pay the bills. Two teams isn't like having eight, but the nature of player recruitment means they'll be drawcards no worse than any other side when travelling to Aus, so there will be bucks flying around with the added bonus of Australian financial help. Auckland would be in, but I don't know enough about NZ to comment on either Wellington or Christchurch...it would be one of them. If not, nine teams presents no problem to the BBL schedule, although they'd then become simply the NZ side in the Aus domestic comp...they wouldn't like being downgraded to that...!

 

[nobbyiscool]

People cannot and should not be so arrogant about the BBL's current success to think it can ignore the lessons of other sports.

Gold Coast is a graveyard for sporting teams. It's a rugby league city, and yet 4 franchises have been and gone in the last 25 years, with the Titans now hanging by a thread.

Newcastle came to be reliant on "the messiah complex" - it relied on far too few to fund and to drive its teams. Newcastle Jets nearly went to the wall when Tinkler went broke (and is still owned by the FFA); the Knights would've been in danger of doing the same had the ARL Commission not seen the writing on the wall and acted very early on.

And Canberra, having lived there for 8 years, only maintains sustainable franchises because the government there understands the need to cater to many types of people, and it provides support to the Raiders and Brumbies that no other NRL or Super Rugby franchises get (or could even dream of). The city of Canberra is like kids and a nightclub - they'll flock to it when it's new and shiny (or when it's successful), but you're a fool to expect the crowds will always be there. (That said, the ACT Government wants to build a new roofed stadium in the city by 2019... so I guess it's the last of the potential options that I'd rule out.)


I'll maintain til I'm blue in the face that there are very, very few comparisons to be made between BBL and A-League - but one of the commonalities is that expansion is incredibly difficult because our population and our major economies are concentrated around so few major cities.

I don't believe there are any regions in Australia in which new teams can be garnered from. So unless we're talking about 1-2 NZ teams, the only "expansion" worth discussing is to do with schedules and a true round robin league, rather than a discussion about more teams.

 

[Smokin]

^ I agree, grown the pie, dont further fragment it as I think it is fine for now. Bring in NZ, perhaps a North and South Island option as not sure their individual cities are big enough bar Auckland.

 

[Smokin]

I'll also point out that over three million people watched the final session of the day night test match - a much bigger figure than 80,000 people going to a derby

Just for clarity - that is a peak figure not average. Average was probably around 2m. No doubt currently the Test team is and should be the #1 individual cricket game - but honestly, that was a perfect storm of first night game, and actually a good finish to a test. Test cricket cant provide that for 30 days straight etc. Test cricket probably cant provide that again in a year.

Look at the BBL - these are averages, not peak: 1.27m, 1.25m, 1.25m, 1.26m, 1.16m, 887k, 1.17m etc.

Considering these are averages, not peaks and dealing with cities, no the whole country they are arguably more impressive figures. And the fact they are so consistent, from night to night is the scary thing. This thing is a ratings beast - I know it goes longer, but AFL or NRL games if theoretically played every night would be happy with these ratings.

EDIT: a better comparison was the average for the DN test on the night before - night session average (metro + regional) was 1.489M - pretty average figures really for the national team compared to BBL figures- which are pumping out nightly. Im sure the windies game figures are significantly worse...

 

[Smokin]

There is every possibility there will be nobody left to play (except England) in a Test in 20 years.

Exactly - the problem with Test cricket is going to be Test Cricket.

Will the 'richer' nations subsidise the poorer ones to continually invest in the product - when it is clear their players have lost focus and onto more lucrative shorter forms of the game? They might talk it, but I doubt they will put their hands in their pocket forever and a day.

 

[ioppolo]

There's no reason for a NZ team. There's no reason to expand the big bash ever.

 

[bombersfan4000]

^ I agree, grown the pie, dont further fragment it as I think it is fine for now. Bring in NZ, perhaps a North and South Island option as not sure their individual cities are big enough bar Auckland.

One or two teams from NZ makes the most sense, bringing in extra teams in Australia will, stretch the talent pool as well need to wonder how the teams will survive financially.
The NZ will be able to support the teams better than any of the regional cities as well as provide the best demostic players from NZ an opportunity in the BBL that you'd think would only improve then level of play

 

[big_e]

People cannot and should not be so arrogant about the BBL's current success to think it can ignore the lessons of other sports.

Gold Coast is a graveyard for sporting teams. It's a rugby league city, and yet 4 franchises have been and gone in the last 25 years, with the Titans now hanging by a thread.

Newcastle came to be reliant on "the messiah complex" - it relied on far too few to fund and to drive its teams. Newcastle Jets nearly went to the wall when Tinkler went broke (and is still owned by the FFA); the Knights would've been in danger of doing the same had the ARL Commission not seen the writing on the wall and acted very early on.

And Canberra, having lived there for 8 years, only maintains sustainable franchises because the government there understands the need to cater to many types of people, and it provides support to the Raiders and Brumbies that no other NRL or Super Rugby franchises get (or could even dream of). The city of Canberra is like kids and a nightclub - they'll flock to it when it's new and shiny (or when it's successful), but you're a fool to expect the crowds will always be there. (That said, the ACT Government wants to build a new roofed stadium in the city by 2019... so I guess it's the last of the potential options that I'd rule out.)


I'll maintain til I'm blue in the face that there are very, very few comparisons to be made between BBL and A-League - but one of the commonalities is that expansion is incredibly difficult because our population and our major economies are concentrated around so few major cities.

I don't believe there are any regions in Australia in which new teams can be garnered from. So unless we're talking about 1-2 NZ teams, the only "expansion" worth discussing is to do with schedules and a true round robin league, rather than a discussion about more teams.

What's Canberra like in summer now? I spent a summer there 16 years ago and recall it as being completely dead, as a large section of the public service population went home for Christmas holidays.

 

[The Darkman]

In the short term I wouldn't change the current format. But if it were to expand, NZ isn't a bad idea provided the majority of their players are available and not playing in an international series to reduce talent dilution. Auckland & Wellington based teams. Extend the competition to 10 games each. Games can be played on the same day in both Wellington & Brisbane. The issues are having extra wear on the grounds, fitting in extra games (increased from 32 to 50), more squads and larger squads, more attractive female reporters to be hit on by randy players, extra travel & accommodation for players, would the organisers make the Scorchers travel to Auckland & vice versa (I don't know how long is the flight from Auckland to Perth) and I know everybody wants more commentators of the similar standard.

Maybe single games can be played in Canberra, Gold Coast (State taxpayers have to get a return on that investment) & Geelong to test the waters.

 

[The Darkman]

What's Canberra like in summer now? I spent a summer there 16 years ago and recall it as being completely dead, as a large section of the public service population went home for Christmas holidays.

Canberra is incredibly dead in summer. The only lively event is the oldies hanging around the Lake in their deckchairs on NYE. The civic centre is so quiet between Christmas & NYE. Vowed never to spend Christmas in Canberra again.

 

[Gibbke]

People cannot and should not be so arrogant about the BBL's current success to think it can ignore the lessons of other sports.

Gold Coast is a graveyard for sporting teams. It's a rugby league city, and yet 4 franchises have been and gone in the last 25 years, with the Titans now hanging by a thread.

Newcastle came to be reliant on "the messiah complex" - it relied on far too few to fund and to drive its teams. Newcastle Jets nearly went to the wall when Tinkler went broke (and is still owned by the FFA); the Knights would've been in danger of doing the same had the ARL Commission not seen the writing on the wall and acted very early on.

And Canberra, having lived there for 8 years, only maintains sustainable franchises because the government there understands the need to cater to many types of people, and it provides support to the Raiders and Brumbies that no other NRL or Super Rugby franchises get (or could even dream of). The city of Canberra is like kids and a nightclub - they'll flock to it when it's new and shiny (or when it's successful), but you're a fool to expect the crowds will always be there. (That said, the ACT Government wants to build a new roofed stadium in the city by 2019... so I guess it's the last of the potential options that I'd rule out.)


I'll maintain til I'm blue in the face that there are very, very few comparisons to be made between BBL and A-League - but one of the commonalities is that expansion is incredibly difficult because our population and our major economies are concentrated around so few major cities.

I don't believe there are any regions in Australia in which new teams can be garnered from. So unless we're talking about 1-2 NZ teams, the only "expansion" worth discussing is to do with schedules and a true round robin league, rather than a discussion about more teams.

The big difference for the GC this time is that it's cricket. It has an overseeing body in CA that directs all money and all profits right across its business, rather than relying on business cases for individual franchises and teams to simply forge their own way. CA will put the team in and pay for it, and then it's a matter of the locals turning up, which they will because it's cricket - they turn up to RL quite reasonably regardless of how much the Titans suck. The GC lost the Seagulls/Giants through leagues club withdrawal, lost the Chargers through the SL war, and watched Searle run his Titans business into the ground until the board took it from him and then did their own damage - through business deals and dodgy practice which wouldn't happen in the CA structure. Everything is done the CA way. Put it this way, if Hobart can successfully operate a franchise, then the GC will have no trouble - completely different scenario despite GC's horrible track record in pro sports, which it must be added includes unsuccessful sorties into sports no one in this country gives a f### about and which have failed in the biggest markets too, like basketball and baseball, and in regional areas soccer...

Canberra has the pollies behind it. Enough said, and there's your answer. They also play the BBL final there - it's not like they've picked some random hick town in the bush to play the big game on...

 

[blackcat]

none atm.

scarcity artificially* contrives the demand.

there is a sweet-spot of affordable salary cap, sold out stadia like Adelaide Oval/WACA/G/Colonial...
affordable foreign talent unlike the salaries in the India Premier League or whatever it is called...
and allowing some young Australian talent from district cricket, Matador 1day, Sheffield...

any "tweaking" of the alchemy may cause interference/liability in this inchoate stage of development


*get me on the definition of artificially in this instance

 

[The_Reaper]

The big difference for the GC this time is that it's cricket. It has an overseeing body in CA that directs all money and all profits right across its business, rather than relying on business cases for individual franchises and teams to simply forge their own way. CA will put the team in and pay for it, and then it's a matter of the locals turning up, which they will because it's cricket - they turn up to RL quite reasonably regardless of how much the Titans suck. The GC lost the Seagulls/Giants through leagues club withdrawal, lost the Chargers through the SL war, and watched Searle run his Titans business into the ground until the board took it from him and then did their own damage - through business deals and dodgy practice which wouldn't happen in the CA structure. Everything is done the CA way. Put it this way, if Hobart can successfully operate a franchise, then the GC will have no trouble - completely different scenario despite GC's horrible track record in pro sports, which it must be added includes unsuccessful sorties into sports no one in this country gives a f### about and which have failed in the biggest markets too, like basketball and baseball, and in regional areas soccer...

Canberra has the pollies behind it. Enough said, and there's your answer. They also play the BBL final there - it's not like they've picked some random hick town in the bush to play the big game on...

The final was a one off

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

What's Canberra like in summer now? I spent a summer there 16 years ago and recall it as being completely dead, as a large section of the public service population went home for Christmas holidays.

The days of a 20% population turnover every summer are over. There is still an exodus and a turnover but nothing like it used to be. The week between Christmas and New Year is still down in in a big way, but even that is more like late January used to be. People (largely) come back after New Years rather than starting new contracts after Australia Day as was often the case when I first moved here.

 

[madmug]

Given that expansion will take a while, What about playing a game in places like GC, Canberra, Geelong, Launceston?. It might also focus the Newcastle city council on investing in a cricket ground upgrade, perhaps Wollongong as well.

Also is it just too wet to play in Townsville, Cairns or Darwin this time of year?

 

[Marklar_33]

If the New Zealand idea comes about (2 teams) do all NZ players become locals for all sides? I think that's the only way to do it, so McCullum can play for the Hurricanes as not an international player

 

[nobbyiscool]

What's Canberra like in summer now? I spent a summer there 16 years ago and recall it as being completely dead, as a large section of the public service population went home for Christmas holidays.

Actually, this is another good point that I hadn't even thought of. Canberra is such a transient town, and so many people move their for work, that a hell of a lot of people leave Canberra the week before Christmas and don't return til mid-late January. It's also a very affluent town, and a very dull and "not summery" town, so a lot of people leave for the coast the week after Christmas and also don't return til mid-late January.

Now that you mention it, it's probably one of the biggest barriers I foresee to a Canberra team - they love and will attend "theatre" (as we saw at the Cricket World Cup and the Asian Cup football), but I don't know that the population is there for a permanent team to be supported during the time of year the BBL is played.

The big difference for the GC this time is that it's cricket. It has an overseeing body in CA that directs all money and all profits right across its business, rather than relying on business cases for individual franchises and teams to simply forge their own way. CA will put the team in and pay for it, and then it's a matter of the locals turning up, which they will because it's cricket - they turn up to RL quite reasonably regardless of how much the Titans suck. The GC lost the Seagulls/Giants through leagues club withdrawal, lost the Chargers through the SL war, and watched Searle run his Titans business into the ground until the board took it from him and then did their own damage - through business deals and dodgy practice which wouldn't happen in the CA structure. Everything is done the CA way. Put it this way, if Hobart can successfully operate a franchise, then the GC will have no trouble - completely different scenario despite GC's horrible track record in pro sports, which it must be added includes unsuccessful sorties into sports no one in this country gives a f### about and which have failed in the biggest markets too, like basketball and baseball, and in regional areas soccer...

Canberra has the pollies behind it. Enough said, and there's your answer. They also play the BBL final there - it's not like they've picked some random hick town in the bush to play the big game on...

These are all really good points you make regarding GC. But I think it's folly to suggest that cricket would achieve more support than rugby league does. Along with regional NSW, GC is as much a rugby league heartland as there is in the country.

And I doubt CA is planning to always fund the BBL are they? Surely at some stage they want the competition and the teams to stand on their own 2 feet?

I don't accept that Hobart demonstrates the GC can run a team. As well as living in Canberra for 8 years, I grew up in Tassie - Cricket Tasmania has actually come to be quite well structured, and Hobart really doesn't have any other teams to call its own. Christ, going back about 12 years the Tassie Devils got 10k+ to Bellerive oval for VFL games - that's how desperate they are for sport, and for a team to call their own. The Seagulls, Giants, GC United and even the Suns and Titans are now demonstrating that this is absolutely not the case on the GC.

It's a little off topic from the point I'm making, but I think a longer season would actually put Hobarts crowds at risk a little bit - I don't know that they'd be as supportive if they were hosting 7 games a season as opposed to the current 4.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Given that expansion will take a while, What about playing a game in places like GC, Canberra, Geelong, Launceston?. It might also focus the Newcastle city council on investing in a cricket ground upgrade, perhaps Wollongong as well.

Also is it just too wet to play in Townsville, Cairns or Darwin this time of year?

I really like this idea if/when it gets expanded to a true round-robin where you play everyone home and away - rather than going from 4 home games to 7, make it 4 home games to 6, then take a game to a regional centre. I think Stars/Geelong, Renegades/Ballarat, Thunder/Canberra, Sydney/Newcastle (or north coast), Brisbane/GC all have some pretty natural "synergies" that could be used to grow the brand of the league and each individual team.

As a northern Tasmanian, playing a Hurricanes game in Launceston would make me a giggle a bit. Aurora Stadium has a larger capacity than Bellerive and would end up out-drawing the Bellerive games. (The biggest attendance to a cricket game in Tasmania was actually the Ricky Ponting testimonial a few years ago, with just over 20k I think)

 

[Van_Dyke]

Given that expansion will take a while, What about playing a game in places like GC, Canberra, Geelong, Launceston?. It might also focus the Newcastle city council on investing in a cricket ground upgrade, perhaps Wollongong as well.

Also is it just too wet to play in Townsville, Cairns or Darwin this time of year?

Too much risk to play there this time of year sadly.

The issue with Newcastle would be capacity maybe? Otherwise they've got a good thing going. I'd like to change it to 3 'home' games, with each time having their own regional home game if possible.

 

[The_Reaper]

Too much risk to play there this time of year sadly.

The issue with Newcastle would be capacity maybe? Otherwise they've got a good thing going. I'd like to change it to 3 'home' games, with each time having their own regional home game if possible.

The only issue with Newcastle is the stadium isn't up to scratch.

It's got a decent population and has a large nearby population catchment area. It's also got a strong regional identity.

 

[Gibbke]

These are all really good points you make regarding GC. But I think it's folly to suggest that cricket would achieve more support than rugby league does. Along with regional NSW, GC is as much a rugby league heartland as there is in the country.

And I doubt CA is planning to always fund the BBL are they? Surely at some stage they want the competition and the teams to stand on their own 2 feet?

I don't accept that Hobart demonstrates the GC can run a team. As well as living in Canberra for 8 years, I grew up in Tassie - Cricket Tasmania has actually come to be quite well structured, and Hobart really doesn't have any other teams to call its own. Christ, going back about 12 years the Tassie Devils got 10k+ to Bellerive oval for VFL games - that's how desperate they are for sport, and for a team to call their own. The Seagulls, Giants, GC United and even the Suns and Titans are now demonstrating that this is absolutely not the case on the GC.

It's a little off topic from the point I'm making, but I think a longer season would actually put Hobarts crowds at risk a little bit - I don't know that they'd be as supportive if they were hosting 7 games a season as opposed to the current 4.

CA has designed the BBL to be a money spinner to pay for cricket, in particular the Shield and the ODD, because the other domestic comps operate at a loss. They won't always fund every aspect of the teams, but they will always administer the game financially to a far greater and unrecognisable level to footy. Never said cricket outranked footy in a GCer's mindset, but Aussies traditionally follow cricket in summer and footy in winter no matter where they are...

I'm Tasmanian, and moved to the GC when I was 26, twenty years ago this month. When living in both places, neither looked like they do now - Tassie was only just becoming self sufficient in cricket, forget actually being a force, and the GC was less than half the size it is now - 300k have moved there since then. I lived there during the Chargers era - they often talk of how the GC used to see itself as five different towns, and this has been well and truly smashed this century...

In both cases, the comp is short, the talent of the team has nothing to do with its locality, and someone else is standing in the background with a chequebook. You're on a winner with both for entirely different reasons. The product is popular, and both places have great facilities to present them. As you said, Tasmanians just want to follow a team - the likelihood of the Hurricanes turning into the Bad News Bears is miniscule, so they'll keep their end up. When I lived on the GC, I knew only two people in the entire four years who'd actually been born there - everyone was an immigrant drawn to the beach. Today, there is an entire generation of kids growing up as Coasters because those immigrants got married, had kids and bought houses which necessitated the creation of many brand new suburbs...that transience is disappearing, and at some stage this entrenchment has to kick in and provide long term support for pro sports teams...

 

[Gibbke]

The final was a one off

They're in the picture...

 

[The_Reaper]

They're in the picture...

They're certainly next in line

 

[Docker82]

I don't think we have the ability to expand without looking to New Zealand. So far we've seen the Sixers be the dominant team in Sydney and the stars to a lesser extent the dominant team in Melbourne. Unfortunately both the thunder and renegades don't have the same amount of local players as other clubs and rely on enticing players from other states to play for them. To add to that the talent pool is already small enough.

For New Zealand only really Auckland and Wellington are capable IMO. Unfortunately Lancaster Park is not going to be ready to be used any time soon if ever therefore Christchurch probably can't host BBL. Having been there last year I saw where they played the World Cup games last year and it's nothing but one small nice grandstand and a few other small facilities and was not surrounded by fencing. The cost of putting games on there probably wouldn't be worth the risk until we've seen how the competition goes in other parts of New Zealand first. Having said that the venue with temporary seating holds 20,000 but that'd be at a guess probably around 18,500 of temporary seating plus the fence around the grounds, toilets etc to install for that to happen.