Bluemour Discussion Thread IX

[Arr0w]

If it works, he's a hero who brings the saints their first flag in my lifetime.

Not the first coach to be obsessed with winning a flag. Some might say what else is there but yes I agree with what you say in that respect. I hardly think Lyon was a lone hand in what went on though.

Not a model we want to replicate, given we have tried that for many years ourselves. It rarely works, if at all

 

[slashin_velvet]

Not a model we want to replicate, given we have tried that for many years ourselves. It rarely works, if at all

How is what he did really all that different to what weve done? SOS said it's easy to build a top 8 side. They had a top 8 side and tried to turn it into a flag winning side. Made sacrifices to build a flag winning side and got mighty close.

We've done the inverse, sacrifice success in the short term and go through immense pain to build a side capable of winning flags. Like with the aints...if it works, SOS is a hero.....if it doesn't...well you know the rest.

 

[1shay]

The Saints problem is similar to ours. Compromised drafts overplayed with incompetent drafting

I think long term, the saints are going to be in a world of hurt - this rebuild hasnt really unearthed any potential elite players. Billings wasnt a great chiice at that position IMO. And there seems to be an overabundance of B graders. They look okay at the moment compared to us, but they are 1-2 years ahead. Melbourne are probably 1-2 years ahead of them, but they look like they are tracking okay

Id say the media should be more concerned for how the saints are heading compared to where we are heading

 

[El Topo]

Pot shots at Norf reek of insecurity. They have tough and skilled mid age players to build around so haven't been forced to start from scratch. Good for them.

 

[Arr0w]

How is what he did really all that different to what weve done? SOS said it's easy to build a top 8 side. They had a top 8 side and tried to turn it into a flag winning side. Made sacrifices to build a flag winning side and got mighty close.

We've done the inverse, sacrifice success in the short term and go through immense pain to build a side capable of winning flags. Like with the aints...if it works, SOS is a hero.....if it doesn't...well you know the rest.

That difference is yet to be seen, as we are not a mid table side

I believe Saints made some errors prior to Lyon. Sacking Thomas (as fickle as he was), after finishing 6th is really unheard of in the past and today. From the moment Lyon walked in the door, they traded out valuable picks to top up on talent, instead of constantly regenerating the list with top end youth, (conceding that it was difficult to do without FA which came into effect 2012)

The most important period of the direction of a list, is when you are mid table and higher, overrate your list, by topping up on senior players with poor trades and it can have devastating, medium to long term effects. Lyon did the same thing with the Dockers, yet this time he remained to rebuild that list

While Clarkson has many points on the board by winning 4 flags, they seem to have gone down a similar path, with adding he likes of Mitchell and O'Meara, while still young players, they too have sacrificed picks to keep the list relevant, but what happens when many of their senior better players, (11 at 29+ at the start of next year) retire? Time will tell if he is a genius or a madman

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

I think long term, the saints are going to be in a world of hurt - this rebuild hasnt really unearthed any potential elite players. Billings wasnt a great chiice at that position IMO. And there seems to be an overabundance of B graders. They look okay at the moment compared to us, but they are 1-2 years ahead. Melbourne are probably 1-2 years ahead of them, but they look like they are tracking okay

Id say the media should be more concerned for how the saints are heading compared to where we are heading

Could not agree more. For a team that was supposedly done rebuilding and on the up, they don't have anyone good in that key 26-30 category except Carlisle. Their list looks only marginally better than ours did when SOS came in a decided to blow it up.

That said, their list is still young enough that things could change quickly if they do well out of the next couple of drafts. But it feels a lot like a team that is building to 8th and not much more.

 

[HBF]

Steven May DNW.

Same.
Do not want either.

 

[HBF]

Beware...........Carro is watching you SOS ..........but it`s not personal..........now where is that bloody lloyd!!!

I doubt that SOS gives a flying you know what about what Caro thinks.

 

[reubsblues]

I get excited when i log in and see the
Bluemours only thread is in bold black
Means i get to read something juicy to get me excited about upcoming trade period

 

[HBF]

Don’t pay the perryman......great song of the 80’s......wait hang on.

Oh no you didn't.

 

[HBF]

Perryman and Setterfield for dogs second rounder *drools*

Blimey.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Blimey.

Some good shit going on around here HBF

 

[The Flying Doormat]

I doubt that SOS gives a flying you know what about what Caro thinks.

Flying what exactly

 

[KohPhi]

Perryman and Setterfield for dogs second rounder *drools*

Won't happen. I have it from a strong source Dogs 2nd will be used to get Shiel and Kelly.

Take it to the bank...

 

[Arr0w]

Won't happen. I have it from a strong source Dogs 2nd will be used to get Shiel and Kelly.

Take it to the bank...

And throwing in Lobb as a 3rd rounder

 

[Funk]

Would take Kelly over Shiel in a heartbeat

Agree but Shiel is FA - Kelly will seriously cost draft picks.

 

[AceAndy]

Won't happen. I have it from a strong source Dogs 2nd will be used to get Shiel and Kelly.

Take it to the bank...

How exactly would this work KohPhi ? I would really love to see Shiel and Kelly in Navy Blue

 

[Funk]

We traded picks 20 & 21 for pick 11 (plus a future 3rd) back in 2015 with the Dogs which got us Charlie Curnow. This year we have Western Bulldogs and Adelaides 2nd rounders which currently will net us picks 23 & 25.

Last year we saw West Coast trade their future 1st rounder to Gold Coast for picks 21 & 26 (plus some other exchanges). Most pundits prior to this season didnt have West Coast in their top 8 calculations so were speculatively trading those picks in the hope of gaining a top 10 pick.

Theres obviously some clubs happy to give up their 1st rounders for extra picks early in the 2nd round and I wonder if SOS will try to strike a similar style deal with those picks this year. Picks 23 & 25 are valued at 1571 points which on that system would be valued at pick 8. Lets argue that ends up being more like pick 10, would we go to the draft with picks 1 & 10, or could pick 10 net us someone like Dylan Shiel?

Will be interesting to see various clubs strategies this year.

WC specifically traded into 2nd round last year because there were numerous good WAFL players that would be available in 2nd round. Kelly, Liam Ryan etc.

IMHO - It will largely depend on which players are expected to be available between 20-40 on draft day versus specific clubs needs.

 

[Arr0w]

Agree but Shiel is FA - Kelly will seriously cost draft picks.

Neither will cost as much at the end of next year, compared to this year

And Kelly would cost more, younger and better

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

How exactly would this work KohPhi ? I would really love to see Shiel and Kelly in Navy Blue

Well first, you need to find a pig. Then attach some wings onto it. Find a catapult and shoot that baby up as high as you can. Then click your red sparkly shoes together three times.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[BJuddy]

Well first, you need to find a pig. Then attach some wings onto it. Find a catapult and shoot that baby up as high as you can. Then click your red sparkly shoes together three times.

sounds like SOS has his work cut out for him then

 

[Funk]

It's fair enough that SOS wants to fully bottom out and get access to top end talent but it's a cop out to pretend there was not alternative if we want success.

Surely you're kidding.

An ageing list with zero young talent (except Cripps and Docherty) and paying full TPP.

If there was another alternative please explain it to me.

 

[Aphrodite]

Won't happen. I have it from a strong source Dogs 2nd will be used to get Shiel and Kelly.

Take it to the bank...

Is that you Earl!

 

[Broadside]

we tried plenty of alternatives

the great thing about Carlton is we will always do the right thing once we have exhausted every other possibility.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Surely you're kidding.

An ageing list with zero young talent (except Cripps and Docherty) and paying full TPP.

If there was another alternative please explain it to me.

I don't know what paying TPP has to do with it. Henderson, Bell, Yarran were all already out the door so that would've freed up plenty of money which it obviously did because we took salary cap dumps.
The point is people were saying North were delusional for not bottoming out and trying to top up because of the state of their list just 5 months ago. Now they are a couple of good decisions or a little bit of luck away from pushing back up the ladder again.

Who knows maybe we should've been trying to attract good best 22 players rather than unproven kids.
The theory behind that path is pretty simple. People are of the belief that players develop when in a winning environment. Hence you don't need 15 first rounders because you can develop players taken with latter picks when you are in a successful side. When you are uncompetitive they don't develop into what they should be.
The theory is maybe in two years McKay, Pickett and Cuningham all become busts because they were in a poor environment for development. They believe that if a Geelong or Sydney ect took them they would of all became B graders simplify because of being part of a winning successful environment.

I have actually agreed with most of the clubs decisions but I think we may have gone too far down the youth path and now with this idea that we won't overpay anyone we are incapable of attracting good AFL level players to the club. We really don't have any other options other than play a very long patience game and the hard part is we still have no idea if we are just another Melbourne pre Roos yet.