Blues being hurt by turnovers

[chaser1]

Very well said choo, you have analysed the technical defiencies in these players very well. And that is exactly why our kicking efficiency/disposal is amongst the worst. And sadly i dont think they can improve it dramaticaly,bc it is inbred from young.

This is compounded by the lack of struture /game plan? You can get the ball all the time you want but if cant deliver it properly in todays game you are stuffed.

Like i have said before our recruiting staff, and development coaches are payed alot of money . Thats why Hawthorn put a lot of empahsis on recruiting players who have good kicking skills, and footscray have probaly the best along with geelong. Suffice it to say that these sides will be pushing for flags top four in the coming years and so in the present and past! If you have good disposal along with good structures/game plan you are in front by a long way? You cannot carry 6-7 players in your side who have technical defiencies and cannot improve sufficiently, to be a flag contender. Its going to Carlton a few years yet to iron these problems!

 

[Bluebear]

Very well said choo, you have analysed the technical defiencies in these players very well. And that is exactly why our kicking efficiency/disposal is amongst the worst. And sadly i dont think they can improve it dramaticaly,bc it is inbred from young.

This is compounded by the lack of struture /game plan? You can get the ball all the time you want but if cant deliver it properly in todays game you are stuffed.

Like i have said before our recruiting staff, and development coaches are payed alot of money . Thats why Hawthorn put a lot of empahsis on recruiting players who have good kicking skills, and footscray have probaly the best along with geelong. Suffice it to say that these sides will be pushing for flags top four in the coming years and so in the present and past! If you have good disposal along with good structures/game plan you are in front by a long way? You cannot carry 6-7 players in your side who have technical defiencies and cannot improve sufficiently, to be a flag contender. Its going to Carlton a few years yet to iron these problems!

One thing missing in all that.

Effort. Support from teamates to relieve pressure.

Running hard to support and receive........putting a shepherd on when you dispose to the player running past, blocking etc.

It was absent on Saturday night. As an example (and there were multiple in every minute of the game, Gumby's big hanger......Walker should have him covered for pace and was with him on the lead......knowing he couldn't beat him in the air Walker dropped off and hoped that if the ball spilled he could beat them at ground level.

What he did was to allow Gumbleton an umimpeded run at the contest and he takes the mark. If he goes with him and gets some body on him as he jumps, good chance that ball comes to ground.

Nice breakdown Choo. Have noticed the Thorton issue myself.......he attacks the ground balls, and esp half volleys with a half arsed attitude and really doesn't get down low enough. Cost us goals in the last two weeks. He is one that has the experience to know better and lead our defence.

 

[Shambolic]

Hate to say it but its also good coaching by knights:

1. tag our best ball users out of the game at all costs, forcing our strugglers (Carrazzo, walker) to do this.
2. force us out wide so the margin of error is not there (10 oob).

Knights is a good coach - who'd have thought.

 

[SOSSOSSOS]

Below is the post I wrote on Brett Ratten and Wayne hughes in the Buddy Draft - please read. The reason we turn it over is not Ratten's fault (even though I think he should go!). It all comes down to wayne hughes. Even though I do like Kane Lucas, the reason he went 'late' was due to his kicking. He had 4 kicks and 12 handballs. That shows his insecurity to kick. That is also the reason Marcus davies was not picked up earlier. Hughes also said Robinson was a great penetrating kick when we picked him up - pity he cannot hit a target from 30m when under pressure. Wayne hughes - you are an absolute joke and I cannot believe we pay you. You must be part of the government stimulus package!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As much as I think ratten is a sh** coach, he must not get all the blame.

The reason he cannot play the game style he wants is because of one man - wayne hughes.

This bloke continuously pick players with shocking kicking style and also continues to say that when they are picked that they have great kicking skills. Anderson, Robinson, walker, davies, benjamin, hartlett, armfeld, and so many more. It's not how far or how penetrating your kick is, it's whether you can hit a target under pressure, like hawthorn, bulldogs and many other quality teams do. Hughes must go. He is the main reason we have no hope until we clean out the back end of our list again.

Now as far as ratten goes - he gets outcoached 22 games of the home and away season. The only reason we win games is due to chris judd or absolute crap teams like ninthmond.

Showing that he was happy with how we played against brisbane expresses that he accepts mediocrity. Would paul roos be happy with any loss? The only thing we did well against brisbane was win the contested ball and play well for 1 1/2 qtrs. He must go as well.

We need a coach who can get the best out of each and every player like Paul roos does. Every trade he does, the incoming player responds to him and plays their best career footy - eg's such a bolton, seaby, mcglyn and many others.

I'ts time the board make the hard decision, even if sticks is mates with him.

We got judd to win another flag. Now if we do not act now, the trade was pointless, and we lose big time on the trade itself.

C'mon sticks swanny - ACT NOW!

 

[Stamos]

Very well said choo, you have analysed the technical defiencies in these players very well. And that is exactly why our kicking efficiency/disposal is amongst the worst. And sadly i dont think they can improve it dramaticaly,bc it is inbred from young.

This is compounded by the lack of struture /game plan? You can get the ball all the time you want but if cant deliver it properly in todays game you are stuffed.

This is simply not true. You can definitely improve your kicking. How much better is Marc Murphy's kicking now than when he started.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Jeez SOSS,

If you had of talked about the more mature players i'd be more inclined to listen.

If you look through first and second year players for all clubs, all the younger players struggle due to lack of speed, size and time and they cough it up. Skully at Melbourne right now. His disposal long term will be fine but he cant hit any target anywhere right now.

To cite Robinson and Lucas is just plain silly. You cant use them for proof until their 3rd season. If they have issues from then on, then bang away.

Build an argument based on Walks/Russell/Carrots/Army etc.

 

[Stamos]

Build an argument based on Walks/Russell/Carrots/Army etc.

Or Scotland. 14 turnovers the last 2 weeks.

 

[incog43]

Or Scotland. 14 turnovers the last 2 weeks.

For all his good work in tight Scotty is hurting us. That number of turnovers is horrendous, even considering he has been doing a lot of inside work.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Or Scotland. 14 turnovers the last 2 weeks.

True, that is not so good Stamos..but i give scotland a reprieve vs Army/Walker types because he personally scored and set up other goals.

Basically he made amends for his blunders in other good plays. This is where stats dont tell the whole story.

In addition, the story does skew the results to suit their damning indictment by removing Richmond stats. Over a journey, Scotland is a fair disposer of the ball.

I personally never just form an opinion like you have done on two games.

I'm on Walker and Amry's case because they are woeful more often than not.

 

[ECHUCABOY]

Maybe we give Johnson one last chance...give him 2 games, use him as the designated kicker and see how it goes...we definetly lack that running backman who can use the footy

 

[Stamos]

True, that is not so good Stamos..but i give scotland a reprieve vs Army/Walker types because he personally scored and set up other goals.

Basically he made amends for his blunders in other good plays. This is where stats dont tell the whole story.

In addition, the story does skew the results to suit their damning indictment by removing Richmond stats. Over a journey, Scotland is a fair disposer of the ball.

I personally never just form an opinion like you have done on two games.

I'm on Walker and Amry's case because they are woeful more often than not.

I haven't written him off over 2 games, they were just the stats at hand, and many had him as our best against the Lions. Scotty's biggest problem, as opposed to the others you mention is that he turns 30 this year. I really doubt that he will be a premiership player (and this only really entered my mind in the final last year). Also, while he used to be a great kick, that seems to have deserted him, while Armfield and Russell, for example, have improved dramatically. And I can cut a lot more slack to a guy in his early 20s still learning the game.

Contrary to your statement, Scotland hasn't kicked a goal this year. He has certainly also done some good things, particular his inside work against Brisbane, but most of the good he set up was by handball, and he has undone a lot of his good work by foot.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

I haven't written him off over 2 games, they were just the stats at hand, and many had him as our best against the Lions. Scotty's biggest problem, as opposed to the others you mention is that he turns 30 this year. I really doubt that he will be a premiership player (and this only really entered my mind in the final last year). Also, while he used to be a great kick, that seems to have deserted him, while Armfield and Russell, for example, have improved dramatically. And I can cut a lot more slack to a guy in his early 20s still learning the game.

Contrary to your statement, Scotland hasn't kicked a goal this year. He has certainly also done some good things, particular his inside work against Brisbane, but most of the good he set up was by handball, and he has undone a lot of his good work by foot.

True, I had in mind one of the blunders he made that cost us a goal. I was there cursing him for 5 minutes and then he went up the ground and set up a goal which sort of offset the pain.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Our different forward structure now requires a few more possessions going forward to set up an opportunity, not good with our disposal, rather than let go with a pass outside 50 to a brilliant leading target as it did previously. That gave us structure and predictability for our players. Not only that, that target had the tremendous ability to turn crap into gold. That contributes alot to our goals inside forward 50 from one year to the next. We were right up there in "points for" last year.

That only tells part of the story though. Our ability to give up goals directly from turnovers in defence hurts. Turn overs too are a fact of life with the pressure, look at the St. K v Coll game, and like other sides we must learn too to make sides sides suffer for their mistakes like we do. Brisbane had as many turnovers as we did but didn't pay like we did. Big part of that was their much better forward structure but other sides do it to us too. Less turnovers would help alot as we have too many but where we turn it over and how we take advantage of opposition turnovers must be looked at too.

 

[Blue since 72]

Or Scotland. 14 turnovers the last 2 weeks.

This is a shocking stat from a senior player and hopefully he rectifies it soon. Has done amazingly well in close and is finding space to burst away when there appears to be none but has to finish the effort with more polish.

If junior players see these turnover numbers from a senior player it helps them justify their own poor efforts.

Lead by example and all that.

 

[dwaugh]

This is far, Far, FAR easier said than done. We have too many guys in the side atm that are average to below average disposers of the ball. Their poor disposal is a combination of poor technique/execution and/or poor decision making. Granted you can work on the decision making but I wouldn't back a 20yo to significantly improve their kicking action to the point where the difference starts affecting results.

Compounding the issue is that some of these guys are playing in defence. Teams such as Hawthorn (Hodge, Young), WB (Gilbee), StK (Gilbert), Geel (Hunt, Kelly) and Adel (McLeod) have some of the best kicks in the league setting up attack from the backline with their ability to break the lines/zones and pinpoint a pass.

We have .....ummm Walker and ??? Awesome

Was C. Johnson supposed to be our elite-kicking backman?? God, I hope not - A. The Washington Generals play better defence and B. While his action may look smooth, he couldn't hit the side of a barn!

Our best option in the side right now for this role is Russell and while he has defintely improved his all-round game he'll never have the kicking ability of the aforementioned players.

So who is it going to be?? I'm not clued in on the guys who haven't debuted yet but please tell me at least one of them could play this role within season 2010.

maybe Scotland??

 

[The Coach]

This tends to illustrate that those attacking our midfield group in retaliation for those picking on Army/Walker for poor disposal have been wrong.

Our midfield group are doing fine, it is all just down to kicking/decision making efficiency, and coversion of opportunities from the overall team.

This is exactly why people on here have highlighted our worst offenders in Army/Walker/Carrots. Thornton escaped my notice to be honest but generally over 5 years he has been good at hitting a target...i cant say the same for the other 3 over a number of games/seasons.

We either train our players better or replace them with players who can kick/make the right decision.

I reckon you are being kind. His disposal stats would include a heap of backward and sideway kicks to defenders in heaps of space and therefore allow a large margin for error while his forward going kicks are at best a 50/50 contest

A man’s got to know his limitations.
The main offenders all have obvious technical deficiencies.

Walker commits most of his errors on the run. He bounces the ball with his left hand and then kicks with his right meaning he is not balanced. When kicking on his left he leans too far to his right and is off balance.

Thornton's turnovers are caused by him not getting low enough to ground balls. He tries to bend and pick the ball up without getting right down. He also has no momentum when kicking and consequently, his kicks do not have the penetration he should.”Hospital passes” if you like.

Scotland wheels onto his left foot too often. He is a very good kick on his right but erratic on his left. Simpson the same.

Carrazzo has no momentum when kicking through the ball and has a double handed drop on his right. His left is painfully slow to release but is, at least, technically correct. He also tries too hard to hit impossible targets or ones that are beyond him.

Maclean is invariably under pressure when he disposes of the ball. He is a clearance player and should go by hand where possible. Because he is slow he obviously feels implied pressure and rushes his kicks. He is another who does not take the percentage option. His kicks are worse later in each quarter when tired.

I know all this obvious, I just hope the players are working very hard to improve although it’s doubtful at their age they will make significant progress. You simply can’t make a bad kick a good kick The main way for them all to get better is to play the percentages and ensure they are picking the SAFEST option. This is what the coaches should be drumming into them.

I am more worried about his handballing misses - he never really punches the pill

Or Scotland. 14 turnovers the last 2 weeks.

If it really is the last 2 weeks not 3 (don't assume one Hun sentence follows the same premise as the previous ) it is hard to fathom as they only put him down for 3 clangers this week and cannot see how most of us had him as our best the previous week if it follows that he had 11 clangers

 

[chaser1]

This is simply not true. You can definitely improve your kicking. How much better is Marc Murphy's kicking now than when he started.

Stamos what i am saying is that players like Armfield, Carrazo, Walker and co, started average at best kicking/disposal ability that is, in the technical sense.. Murphy started of with a better disposal/kicking ability than the above players through practice he has become better. The other three in my opinion are coming from a longer way back, they to can improve .Certainly Carrazo has, Armfield not sure, same goes with Walker.

There is only so much you can improve on this aspect to become a plus not a liability! Other factors are of course are commitment, courage, football nouse ,intensity at the contest and so on. Clinton jones is a prime example, not the best kick has improved it but his ROLE in the side is to stop the best opposition ball winner/midfielder. When he does that the other players such as motagna, del santo ,hayes and co tack up the slack in the kicking /disposal area bc they are very good at it. Therefore he playes to his team strengths and his strengths.

In our side their are far too many who for one reason or another turnover the ball through poor disposal be it decision making and or kicking efficiency?

 

[mediumsizered]

This is simply not true. You can definitely improve your kicking. How much better is Marc Murphy's kicking now than when he started.

Fair comment. Kicking skills improve when players no longer worry about or focus on, not making a mistake. This comes with time/experience. Of course some players will only see minimal improvement, whilst a handful can consistently kick well from the outset.

Kicking should eventually become second nature, something that a player should not even be thinking about when he has the ball in his hand. When this happens players then only have to think about who they are going to kick to, not whether the kick will be effective or not. That is why Murphy & Russell have improved so much. They have reached the stage in their career where they are only ever focussing on how they are going to dispose of the ball, not whether they are going to 'screw up' the disposal.

 

[Silvagnis]

with Andrew Walker twice committing the sin deep in defence.

If you look at the highlights on that Youtube channel, one of Walker's OOTF kicks was due to JR winning the ball and shooting out a rocket hospital handpass to AW under pressure on the boundary line. Walker had to slam it onto his wrong foot off one step and put it OOF with only Bomber players up the field.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics."

Russell panicked.

The other OOTF was bad, though I might have to have another look.

Maybe our disposal will improve if they actually shepherd and give their teammates more protection.

How many times do we see a player take on three players and have to get a kick away under pressure?

 

[Stamos]

If it really is the last 2 weeks not 3 (don't assume one Hun sentence follows the same premise as the previous ) it is hard to fathom as they only put him down for 3 clangers this week and cannot see how most of us had him as our best the previous week if it follows that he had 11 clangers

There was a table in the Hun yesterday that was specifically on the turnovers in the last 2 weeks. It said Scotland had 14 turnovers, with 2 goals 3 behinds scored from them.
Although, obviously anything in the Hun should be taken with a grain of salt, I personally have the impression that Scotland's kicking has been very poor, that's from seeing v Richmond and v Essendon live, and v Brisbane on the tele. I have to say I'm staggered that he is leading this board's B&F, but everyone looks at different things.

 

[Faz 2000]

So in summary, it appears our problems are something like this:

1. Footskills. As an overall team out footskills are lousy. Not only is our average skill poor by AFL standards, but we have no elite disposers of the ball. No "weapons".

2. Gameplan. Ratten has us slowing the ball down, kicking around in defence, mark-kick-mark-kick. An awful match, at the moment, given we can't do three mark-kicks in a row without the ball hitting the grass.

3. Half forward line. We don't have one. You're standing at half-back, you look up, and there's ~170cms of Eddie Betts standing next to his opponent, Waite on one leg on the opposite wing and Brock McLean trying to run down an overweight trainer so he can get a drink. There is nothing to kick to. Our FF can only take chest marks. Our best forward is tiny. Our future forward star is just learning the game.

What is so insanely frustrating about all this is Carlton does that hard stuff well. We DO actually tackle reasonably well, we provide decent forward line pressure, we win a lot of clearances... and then the absolutely basics of kicking destroy us. I can't watch it, to be honest. It makes me too angry.

Right now, I don't know how to fix it. It don't know if it's fixable, with this list of footballers. I don't know if Ratten and his team are the guys to fix it.

But I really hope we sort it out, because it's the reason we're not 3-0 right now, plain and simple, and it's hurt us in every game we've played this year (even against a Richmond side that would struggle in the VFL... we still put it OOB way too many times).

 

[Alpha1]

So what's new with this? For years now I have been questioning our skills only to be shouted down, nothing is going to change regarding our skills etc, I doubt they even work on it out on the training track.

 

[Sin City]

Win the battle with defensive/physical pressure and intensity over four quarters and you're able to execute your skills a lot better while making your opposition look a lot worse.

 

[Faz 2000]

So what's new with this? For years now I have been questioning our skills only to be shouted down, nothing is going to change regarding our skills etc, I doubt they even work on it out on the training track.

Nothing has changed, it's just more obvious now. Our team has actual expectations on it, and we ARE strong in some areas, so it makes our stunning weakness in this space all the more plain to see.

 

[The Coach]

There was a table in the Hun yesterday that was specifically on the turnovers in the last 2 weeks. It said Scotland had 14 turnovers, with 2 goals 3 behinds scored from them.
Although, obviously anything in the Hun should be taken with a grain of salt, I personally have the impression that Scotland's kicking has been very poor, that's from seeing v Richmond and v Essendon live, and v Brisbane on the tele. I have to say I'm staggered that he is leading this board's B&F, but everyone looks at different things.

What gives?

AFL stats have Scotty down for 3 clangers last week and 2 against Brisbane (and 3 v Tigers)

That is only 8 from 3 games and from 85 disposals

WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT WE ARE NOT BEING MISLEAD FOLKS