Brisbane/Fitzroy relationship discussion

[Roylion]

By that logic he is already the record holder.

Yep. Strictly speaking.

But in the spirit of the "merger" according to the club, Brisbane Lions players since 1997 count their Bears records and Fitzroy records as part of their Lions records. That was official Brisbane Lions policy, where otherwise Fitzroy records and Bears records were "ruled off" and considered ended.

That makes Ashcroft the current record holder.

Of course if the Brisbane Lions and the Brisbane Bears are the same club, once again Marcus Ashcroft is the current record holder. That is the AFL's position.

 

[Grimreepah]

So where does the Fitzroy Football Club fit in?

I don't follow the VAFA. With regards to Fitzroy's contribution to the merger my interest lies in the history from 1897 to 1996.

 

[Last of the Roys]

I understand Roylion's position. It has been his consistent position for a long time.

It is one based on how the different entities formed / continued on a legal basis. In that sense, he is right - FFC started in 1883 and continues to this day in the VAFA. The Brisbane Bears started in 1987, merged with the AFL operations of FFC in 1996 / 97 and changed their name to the Brisbane Lions.

I also agree with those who think it is fine to hold that position if you want to.

However, I along with many people on here, as well as Kevin Murray and the Brisbane Lions, take a different perspective. It is not based on legal entities or a black / white version of Clubs / records. It is however based on the spirit of ensuring the records / history and legacy of Fitzroy and the Bears continue to get remembered forever into the future.

On that basis I find it absolutely fantastic that the Club refers to both Brisbane Lions records as well as overall records from our combined histories.

So, if Simon Black gets to 334 games he will not take the Fitzroy record, he will not even be passing a Club record (as it will already be his) - but he will be passing something extremely monumental in the combined histories of our merged Clubs.

Like Kevin Murray, I wish him absolutely all the best to do so. I couldn't think of a nicer bloke, or greater onfield champion to go past Bulldog's mark.

 

[Roylion]

I don't follow the VAFA. With regards to Fitzroy's contribution to the merger my interest lies in the history from 1897 to 1996.

Why not 1884 to 1896?

So, if as you say the Fitzroy Lions and the Brisbane Lions are one and the same, where do you think the Fitzroy Football Club fits in?

Is the Fitzroy history between 1897 and 1996, Fitzroy Football Club's history or Brisbane's history?

 

[Roylion]

However, I along with many people on here, as well as Kevin Murray and the Brisbane Lions, take a different perspective. It is not based on legal entities or a black / white version of Clubs / records. It is however based on the spirit of ensuring the records / history and legacy of Fitzroy and the Bears continue to get remembered forever into the future.

Certainly. Remembered in the AFL. Not continued.

On that basis I find it absolutely fantastic that the Club refers to both Brisbane Lions records as well as overall records from our combined histories.

I don't mind Brisbane referring to Fitzroy's AFL history as long as it is also made clear that Fitzroy Football Club's historical club records, are being continued to this day in the VAFA. Their AFL records are not being continued by the Brisbane Lions. Fitzroy's AFL records were "ruled off" at the end of 1996. Kevin Murray's club record may one day be broken, but it will only be broken by a Fitzroy Football Club player.

So, if Simon Black gets to 334 games he will not take the Fitzroy record, he will not even be passing a Club record (as it will already be his)

Pretty much the point I am making.

but he will be passing something extremely monumental in the combined histories of our merged Clubs.

334 senior AFL games is monumental.

 

[The Wight Nite]

I am generally more of a BigFooty 'observer' rather than active 'aprticipant', but I feel as though I need to comment on this issue (even though opinion is always ging to be divided).

Roylion, I respect your comments and understand that you're one of the Fitzroy traditionalists who hasn't truly become part of the merged Lions. As an old Fitzroy supporter (now Brisbane Lions member in Victoria), I also think it's great that the amateur side is giving so many fans in Melbourne, like yourself, something to hold onto.

However, I find it a bit disrespectful that you think Fitzroy's VFL/AFL statistics should continue in the Premier C Division of the VAFA.

By that reckoning, if 'John Smith' came out and booted 130 goals in a season for Fitzroy FC next season - would you consider that to be the most goals kicked in a season by a Fitzroy player? Would John Smith overtake Bernie Quinlan's feat? If so, I can't help but disagree.

I can't possible see how you can compare achievements from the elite competition with those from an amateur competition.

As an old Fitzroy man, I love the Club as much as the next bloke, but I would much prefer to see the Club's history absorbed into the Brisbane Lions.

I personally would prefer to see Kevin Murray's long-standing record broken by Simon Black next year, rather than some guy no one has ever heard of in a few years' time.

 

[Roylion]

Roylion, I respect your comments and understand that you're one of the Fitzroy traditionalists who hasn't truly become part of the merged Lions.

I'm a current Brisbane Lions Victorian member.

However, I find it a bit disrespectful that you think Fitzroy's VFL/AFL statistics should continue in the Premier C Division of the VAFA.

Why is it disrespectful? Why shouldn't Fitzroy's club records continue in the VAFA? Fitzroy's club records continued after they left the VFA and joined the VFL-AFL. The club's VFL-AFL records commenced in 1897, but their overall club records commenced in 1884. Likewise the club records continue in 2012.

By that reckoning, if 'John Smith' came out and booted 130 goals in a season for Fitzroy FC next season - would you consider that to be the most goals kicked in a season by a Fitzroy player? .

In the history of the Fitzroy Football Club from 1884...yes.

If Jonathan Brown kicked 130 goals for the Brisbane Lions next season, would you consider that to be the most goals kicked in a season by a Fitzroy player?

Would John Smith overtake Bernie Quinlan's feat? If so, I can't help but disagree.

Not in Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history and it certainly wouldn't be counted in the VFL-AFL's Fitzroy history. But in overall Fitzroy Football Club history...yes.

As I said if it were Jonathan Brown that kicked 130 goals would you consider that to be the most goals kicked in a season by a Fitzroy player? Has Jonathan Brown ever played for Fitzroy?

I can't possible see how you can compare achievements from the elite competition with those from an amateur competition.

So should we count Fitzroy achievements from the late 1800's and early 1900's in the history of the Fitzroy Football Club? The VFL in its early years was also an amateur competition. And if we can't compare them should we count them? If we're only going to count records from an 'elite competition' (because records cant be compared between elite and amateur competitions, should we just start those records from 1990 or 1987 or some other arbitrary date when it was considered the VFL became an elite competition?

As an old Fitzroy man, I love the Club as much as the next bloke, but I would much prefer to see the Club's history absorbed into the Brisbane Lions.

How can it be when the Fitzroy Football Club formed in 1883 still exists in its own right in Melbourne?

I personally would prefer to see Kevin Murray's long-standing record broken by Simon Black next year, rather than some guy no one has ever heard of in a few years' time.

Simon Black and Kevin Murray played for different clubs.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I've seen a lot of Lions fans with the Lions logo tattooed on their arm. Haven't seen anyone with the club's ABN.

For those who see a club as more than its business registration certificate, the merger has created significant grey areas.

This is why I find these circular, repetitious, black and white arguments a waste of time.

 

[Slax]

I've seen a lot of Lions fans with the Lions logo tattooed on their arm. Haven't seen anyone with the club's ABN.

For those who see a club as more than its business registration certificate, the merger has created significant grey areas.

This is why I find these circular, repetitious, black and white arguments a waste of time.

Where I have the biggest issue is with the AFL. The recognise the premiership but none of the others stats, but then recognise the stats for thee Bears.

The whole legal entity arguement is a separate issue I believe to that of the way the club views itself and the way the sports administrators view it. The AFL just doesn't want to have to go over the way the killed off Fitzroy again, because they know that they acted in a manner against the interests of the club and its supporters for there own reasons.

The AFL will always act in the interests of its sponsors and media stakeholders before looking after the interests of the fans. the fact that they have constantly wanted to appease Channel 7 into having a night GF, which is directly against the wishes of over 90% of fans shows this. They will destroy what is a great day for many people with the traditional bbq and half time kick and what is also a big money spinner for a lot of sporting clubs. But provide AD and AA get their big fat bonuses they really don't care.

 

[Roylion]

I've seen a lot of Lions fans with the Lions logo tattooed on their arm. Haven't seen anyone with the club's ABN.

Fitzroy Football Club is far more than an ABN. I've seen many Fitzroy fans with the Fitzroy FFC logo too. (Which incidentally is trademarked to the Fitzroy Football Club.)

For those who see a club as more than its business registration certificate, the merger has created significant grey areas.

The Club has continued to have shareholders, directors, annual members, supporters and revenue streams long before they re-entered the playing field in the VAFA. Since 1996, the Club has sponsored Coburg in the VFL, the Fitzroy Reds in the VAFA (before we took their place), the Fitzroy Juniors and has represented and advocated for Fitzroy members who have made the Brisbane Lions their AFL club. (Remember the 2010 Supreme Court case for example).

Most importantly the Club has continued. 129 years old. It still exists. And it exists independently of the Brisbane Lions, except for what is outlined in the terms of the Deed of Arrangement.

 

[notting18]

Most importantly the Club has continued. 129 years old. It still exists. And it exists independently of the Brisbane Lions, except for what is outlined in the terms of the Deed of Arrangement.

The Deed of Arrangement effectively operates as an assets sale where FFC "sold" their football business to the Brisbane Lions (as renamed) and The Brisbane Lions own all the tangible and intangible assets associated with those operations.

In such a situation of course FFC will still continue, but provided the merger agreement is still on foot, the football club it used to run is now being run as a merged entity by The Brisbane Lions.

 

[Roylion]

The Deed of Arrangement effectively operates as an assets sale where FFC "sold" their football business to the Brisbane Lions (as renamed) and The Brisbane Lions own all the tangible and intangible assets associated with those operations.

The Brisbane Bears acquired and incorporated Fitzroy's AFL club operations into their own operations. Legally a new club was NOT formed.

From the Deed.

"Club Operations" means all the operations and activities (including the Football Operations) of an AFL Club:

"Football Operations" means the training, coaching, playing and selection activities of an AFL club associated with the fielding of a football team by the AFL Club in the AFL Competition;

"Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

Except as provided in this Deed, nothing in this Deed will be construed or interpreted to mean that Brisbane Bears will assume any liability for the debts or obligations of Fitzroy or that the Brisbane Bears will have any input in the ongoing management of Fitzroy after the Merger Date.

In such a situation of course FFC will still continue, but provided the merger agreement is still on foot, the football club it used to run is now being run as a merged entity by The Brisbane Lions.

The Brisbane Bears incorporated Fitzroy's AFL club operations into its own.

The Brisbane Bears changed their branding as a result. No new club was formed.

Fitzroy Football Club continued to exist in its own right, with the same directors and shareholders, except without an AFL licence (and therefore without AFL club operations). Fitzroy Football Club has current football club operations, but they are not AFL club operations and have not been since 1996. Any subsequent memberships, revenue streams acquired by Fitzroy are not within the bounds of the AFL competition and Brisbane has no claim upon them.

This does not mean the Fitzroy Football Club is a new club. It just means that the existing Fitzroy Football Club no longer has a licence to compete in the AFL competition.

 

[notting18]

The Brisbane Bears acquired and incorporated Fitzroy's AFL club operations into their own operations. Legally a new club was NOT formed.

The Brisbane Bears incorporated Fitzroy's AFL club operations into its own.

The Brisbane Bears changed their branding as a result. No new club was formed.

Fitzroy Football Club continued to exist in its own right, with the same directors and shareholders, except without an AFL licence (and therefore without AFL club operations). Fitzroy Football Club has current football club operations, but they are not AFL club operations and have not been since 1996. Any subsequent memberships, revenue streams acquired by Fitzroy are not within the bounds of the AFL competition and Brisbane has no claim upon them.

This does not mean the Fitzroy Football Club is a new club. It just means that the existing Fitzroy Football Club no longer has a licence to compete in the AFL competition.

I've read the merger agreement and I'd like to point out that most of that is rebutting a statment I didn't make.

I said that the Brisbane Lions, as renamed, acquired the football business of Fitzroy and they then merged that business into their existing business. We are in agreement there. The Fitzroy Football Club is NOT a new business (ABN, directors, shareholders, etc), but it is operating a different club in the footballing sense (players, organisation, etc) which is going back to TBD's original point - is the club the ABN or the footballing operations.

You seem to place more importance on the business behind the football operations, while a significant majority place the importance on the football operations themselves. As the Brisbane Lions acquired the football operations of the Fitzroy Football Club, I, like many others, view that they acquired the "club" - included its history. A football club is not a business, it is the football operations.

 

[Roylion]

I said that the Brisbane Lions, as renamed, acquired the football business of Fitzroy and they then merged that business into their existing business. We are in agreement there.

They didn't acquire the football "business". Substitute the word "business" with "operations". They acquired the operations...the day to day running of an AFL club.

The Fitzroy Football Club is NOT a new business (ABN, directors, shareholders, etc), but it is operating a different club in the footballing sense (players, organisation, etc) which is going back to TBD's original point - is the club the ABN or the footballing operations.

What entity held the AFL licence to field a team called Fitzroy in the AFL? The Fitzroy Football Club.

An analogy might be someone changing jobs or houses. I may change my job and acquire different operations to do that job, but I'm still the same person. I may move house and acquire new possessions as a result (they may have even been taken by another person), but I'm still the same person. I might move overseas and even acquire a new citizenship, but I'm still the same person.

Fitzroy may have moved competitions and acquired new operations, but it is still effectively the same Club. Based in Melbourne, with the same structure, directors and shareholders and many of the same club members. I was a annual member in 1996 and I was again in 1998. I was a shareholder in 1996 and I was again in 1997 of the same entity. Fitzroy once had an AFL licence and fielded three teams (Seniors, Reserves and U/19s) in the AFL competition.

Now it does not.

You seem to place more importance on the business behind the football operations, while a significant majority place the importance on the football operations themselves.

A significant majority of who? Brisbane Lions supporters? Or Fitzroy supporters?

As the Brisbane Lions acquired the football operations of the Fitzroy Football Club, I, like many others, view that they acquired the "club" - included its history.

They acquired the Club Operations. "Club Operations" means all the operations and activities (including the Football Operations) of an AFL Club. That does not necessarily mean the Brisbane Bears acquired the history of the Club as their own sole history. They may have acquired the means to commemorate that history such as the assets of a historical society (if that was a current operation and activity of the AFL club in 1996) should they choose to do so. And if they choose to do so, fine. However that does not make Fitzroy's history their own. And it certainly doesn't make them the sole custodians of Fitzroy's history.

And what actually was acquired in the end? Eight Fitzroy players from Fitzroy's 1996 list...less than 20% of the total list and some memorabilia held by the club, as well as odds and ends like 1996 unforms, training uniforms, footballs and maybe some gym equipment.

So who "owns" the history of the Fitzroy Football Club? Fitzroy Football Club certainly claim Fitzroy's history from 1883 to 2012 as their own and have accumulated / acquired quite a bit of Fitzroy Football Club memorabilia as their own to acknowledge and observe that history.

A football club is not a business, it is the football operations.

Eight players and some odds and ends make up an entire AFL club?

A football club is made up of a number of sectors, including the business side of things. The football operations, the members, the coteries, the shareholders, the directors, employees (whether paid or volunteers) and so on. I'd say a director, working in a voluntary capacity is as much a part of the club as a football player or football coach is. The players represent the club (you, me, other members, shareholders whatever) on the field. If you are a member do you regard yourself as part of the Brisbane Lions Football Club? If you work in the football shop as an employee are you a part of the Club?

 

[Stocka]

In my opinion, both Fitzroy FC and the Brisbane Lions have equal moral right to the Fitzroy VFL/AFL records when talking about "club" achievements.

However, I think the issue over "club" records is a tough one to draw and exact line upon. This is largely because the Brisbane Lions "incorporate" both Fitzroy and Bears records into the Brisbane Lions records, much like the remaining corporate entity of the Fitzroy FC now incorporates the Fitzroy Reds and Fitzroy VAFA (post 2008) team's records into its "club" records.

Personally, I think it's best if each different emulation of the club has its records kept separate. With that said, even with each section kept separate, it's still plausible for either club to claim and refer to the records under the larger umbrella of the club, as opposed to a specific era or emulation of which competition the team was playing in at the time.

For instance, I believe that Fitzroy's records pertaining from 1883 to 1896 are separate to those from 1897 to 1996, which are also separate from the Fitzroy Reds and Fitzroy VAFA (post 2008) records. However, obviously these records are still relevant to Fitzroy and its supporters in the larger "club umbrella" sense.

I also believe that Fitzroy's VFL/AFL records and the Bears VFL/AFL records are separate to those of the Brisbane Lions, but once again, these records are still relevant to the Brisbane Lions and its supporters in the larger "club umbrella" sense.

For me, when we talk about Fitzroy's records in the context of the broader football public (which is VFL/AFL focused), as opposed to the Fitzroy or Brisbane Lions specific contexts, it is only the VFL/AFL (1897-1996) ones that really matter, because discussion is generally oriented towards football at the highest level, rather than achievements in other levels of competition. After all, when we talk of statistics of other Victorian clubs, or even a team like Port Adelaide that has a long-standing history in the SANFL, we do not refer to any premierships won, or other achievements, in other levels of competition, when talking in the common, broader, football public sense.

Therefore, in my opinion, K.Murray's record of 333 games for Fitzroy is something that can never be beaten, regardless of whether or not a Fitzroy VAFA player or a Brisbane Lions player exceeds this total with the current versions of the broader Fitzroy club, because "Fitzroy's records" is largely a reference in the football public (and also in my mind) to the club's VFL/AFL existence. So, if S.Black reaches 334 games, I'd refer to his achievement as merely having been the highest total of games played by a player in the combined histories of Fitzroy, the Bears and the Brisbane Lions. I'd say the same of a Fitzroy player in the VAFA as well.

The one exception to this rule, would be in the case of those Brisbane Lions players who had played for either Fitzroy or the Bears (or both, as in the case of A.Lynch and S.McIvor) prior to also playing with the Lions. Under the original arrangement of the merger, such players were eligible to have their games played for any/all of these clubs counted as "Brisbane Lions games". It seems to me, that in hindsight, this exception has probably caused some of the confusion by people in the media and at AFL level (not that it was ever that hard to understand, mind you). Perhaps this exception should not have been made, and perhaps it would have been better to simply say that all Brisbane Lions records began as of 1997, with no games played for either Fitzroy or the Bears counting towards Brisbane Lions records for Lions players. However, it is probably too late to change this now, given that it would completely alter Brisbane Lions club records and milestones that have been achieved by players.

Clearly a merger between two existing clubs in the same level of competition is a complex matter. I think there is a clear difference as well, between the "spirit" or "intention" of the merger, as opposed to a legal interpretation. As a supporter, what matters most to me, is that Fitzroy (ie: its VFL/AFL emulation) is remembered with respect and that I can enjoy following football teams such as the Brisbane Lions and the Fitzroy VAFA team, celebrate their achievements (which I feel are separate to "Fitzroy") and feel a strong connection to Fitzroy, as I followed them in the VFL/AFL.

Whilst the legalities of the merger agreement hold some weight, I personally put more importance on the "spirit" of the merger and the intentions of various entities when evaluating their actions and forming my views/values. After all, what matters most to me as a Fitzroy supporter, is how I feel as a supporter, not only what a court of law, the media, the AFL, or even temporary misguided club officials might say. For me, none of these people/entities can define for me what Fitzroy is or is not, as this is something that is in my heart and head as a Fitzroy supporter.

Likewise, it could well be argued that the legalities of the merger agreement are largely subject to the decisions made by Michael Brennan, the AFL and the Brisbane Bears, and that Fitzroy could well have been subsumed entirely into the Brisbane Bears corporate structure, or even simply wound up (and the calling in of the "merger debts" against Fitzroy, even after the merger itself, could have had this effect, I am led to believe). So, the fact that "Fitzroy still exists in its own right" (or however people want to spin it) and field a team in the VAFA, is as much as positive, if unintended by-product of the merger, more than a case of Fitzroy being completely separate from the Brisbane Lions. Had there been no merger, Fitzroy would simply have folded, and even if "Fitzroy people" had started up a VAFA team, in this case, it would not have been linked to the "Fitzroy FC" ABN or corporate structure.

Either way, I'm happier having teams in both the AFL and VAFA that represent Fitzroy to me, rather than no teams at all.

 

[____]

Well said Stocka

 

[adey115]

Damn straight Stocka. I liked the read.

 

[alscotoz]

Stocka said:

As a supporter, what matters most to me, is that Fitzroy (ie: its VFL/AFL emulation) is remembered with respect and that I can enjoy following football teams such as the Brisbane Lions and the Fitzroy VAFA team, celebrate their achievements (which I feel are separate to "Fitzroy") and feel a strong connection to Fitzroy, as I followed them in the VFL/AFL.

Nuff said

 

[BuntonRules]

Thought this was the best place for this

She first performed The Loco-Motion during a Fitzroy Football Club benefit concert. The Loco-Motion was the highest selling Australian single in the 1980's

from here - Big Pond

does anyone know anything about it? Is/was Kyles a Fitzroy girl?

 

[Reardo]

Thought this was the best place for this




from here - Big Pond

does anyone know anything about it? Is/was Kyles a Fitzroy girl?

s**t I hope so. I wanted to marry her when I was a 16yo, that would make her even more perfect.

 

[Lace Out]

I don't think she likes any team much.

 

[MICKYCONLAN]

Where I have the biggest issue is with the AFL. The recognise the premiership but none of the others stats, but then recognise the stats for thee Bears.

The whole legal entity arguement is a separate issue I believe to that of the way the club views itself and the way the sports administrators view it. The AFL just doesn't want to have to go over the way the killed off Fitzroy again, because they know that they acted in a manner against the interests of the club and its supporters for there own reasons.

The AFL will always act in the interests of its sponsors and media stakeholders before looking after the interests of the fans. the fact that they have constantly wanted to appease Channel 7 into having a night GF, which is directly against the wishes of over 90% of fans shows this. They will destroy what is a great day for many people with the traditional bbq and half time kick and what is also a big money spinner for a lot of sporting clubs. But provide AD and AA get their big fat bonuses they really don't care.

AFL motto: "If there's a buck in it we'll do it"

 

[Mr Ripper]

does anyone know anything about it? Is/was Kyles a Fitzroy girl?

This is the line up from the night in question:

Friends of Victoria Football Presents...
THE FITZROY FC GIANT FIGHTBACK VARIETY NIGHT
SUNDAY 3rd AUGUST, 1986
FESTIVAL HALL
COMPARED BY GIL TUCKER
Doors open 6.30 p.m. Programme starts 7.15 p.m.

STARRING

John Waters 'Alice to Nowhere'
'Coodabeen Champions with Greg Champion and the Maniac Rockers from Hell'
Wilbur Wilde 'Hey Hey'
Maurie Fields 'The Flying Doctors'

'RELAX WITH MAX'
Max Vella Singer
Ross Hanaford ex 'Daddy Cool'
Gary Young Drums 'Daddy Cool'
Greg Ham Sax 'Men at Work'
James Black Keyboard ex 'Mondo Rock'
'TOOTS' Sax
David Adam Rhythm Guitar
Jimmy Fewing Bass

Stephen Cummings 'Sports'
Alan Zavod Pianist

'NEIGHBOURS' STARS
Kylie Minogue singing
BACKED BY
Elaine Smith
Paul Keane
Stefan Dennis
Charlene Fenn
Peter O'Brien
Jason Donovan
Geoff Paine

V.F.L.STARS FROM EACH TEAM
Robert Flower Melbourne
Trevor Barker St. Kilda
Tim Watson Essendon
Mark Williams Collingwood
Rodney Eade Hawthorn
R. Glendinning N. Melbourne
Dale Weightman Richmond
Simon Beasley Footscray
D. Rhys-Jones Carlton

ALL FITZROY PLAYERS IN ATTENDANCE
Special guests:
Kevin Bartlett
Sam Newman
Barry Michael 'Hey Hey's famous busker
John Orcsik

'PRISONER' STARS
Paula Duncan
Glenda Linscott
Lois Collender 'Top Dog'

'FLYING DOCTORS' STARS
Liz Burch
Lenore Smith

Unlike many 80s soapie stars, I don't believe Kylie has any particular leaning towards Fitzroy.

 

[Mr Ripper]

And here's a bit more http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-kylie-connection.8039/

 

[MSB ROYS]

And here's a bit more http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-kylie-connection.8039/

Good find. This was even before my time on BF!