Opinion Butcher

[Phhht]

Another poster has already mentioned Chad Cornes, who was a pretty average forward, but absolutely blossomed when he was moved to chb.

Disagree

 

[Peck]

Don't see the point really. He's our second best key forward and he'd be our fifth best defender. If he's gonna make it at AFL level it's as a forward, and that's where we need him to make it. All we can really do is persist for the year and a half that his contract lasts and hope that something clicks in that time. At least this year he has the best midfield in the SANFL delivering it to him to give him the best chance of success.

I think a good point to make is that to be a good forward you need to know how to beat your man. Playing defence and seeing it from your opponent's perspective (assuming he goes back to playing up forward) could be a good bit of insight for Butcher for that part of his game.

Sometimes going back to the basics can be a good way to improve, and lets be honest he would really have to work on the basics down back. Honestly Butcher's game against North was pretty awful, and if someone else was playing in his place we might be on top of the ladder at this point. I thought he was pretty close in that game, and backed him in for another game but the reality is if Butcher playing costs us wins then he just shouldn't be playing. Perhaps as a defender he will improve his output considerably, and even if we don't need another KPD it could be the best option for him. Even if he can't force his way ahead of Trengove, Hombsch, or Carlile he could possibly make for good depth, or be traded out to another club that could use him.

 

[It Just Is]

Don't see the point really. He's our second best key forward and he'd be our fifth best defender. If he's gonna make it at AFL level it's as a forward, and that's where we need him to make it. All we can really do is persist for the year and a half that his contract lasts and hope that something clicks in that time. At least this year he has the best midfield in the SANFL delivering it to him to give him the best chance of success.

If Schulz couldn't play this week would Butcher get a call up?

I agree he's far more likely to make it as a forward but right now the chances of that aren't looking all that high. Playing him down back for a few weeks would be more to do with getting some form and football then actually making a permanent transition. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do but I'm certain something needs to happen. The last thing anyone wants is for Butch to play out the final year and a half of his contract struggling to get a touch in the SANFL.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

With butch and this may come of harsh....but its seems we have to hold his hand through everything....sometimes very basic stuff in footy....

He needs to just realise he is a talent a very good talent at that just conquer his mental demons...easier said then done I know

 

[1954]

I wasn't suggesting making Butch a permanent defender, although I can see how my references to other players could be construed that way.

It was more of a suggestion that giving him a look at the ball from the other end of the ground could give him the confidence to go on with it as a forward.
I believe the club has nothing to lose by giving it a try, anyway, I will be at Alberton on saturday, and here's hoping he kicks a bag.

A player who went the other way of course was Tim Evans, who was a beautiful kick as a chb, but was sometimes exposed for a lack of pace in that position, legend says Jack saw him slot 5 or 6 goals from outside 50 at training one night, put him at full forward against the gay bays in a coca cola cup game at footy park the following weekend, and the rest as they say is history.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I thought Woite won his medal as a wingman?

Centre half back. Best in the comp.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Don't see the point really. He's our second best key forward and he'd be our fifth best defender. If he's gonna make it at AFL level it's as a forward, and that's where we need him to make it. All we can really do is persist for the year and a half that his contract lasts and hope that something clicks in that time. At least this year he has the best midfield in the SANFL delivering it to him to give him the best chance of success.

That's 2011-12 thinking where we can only play players in the position they were drafted in, not be brave and look at other options, and understand that he might be the 5th best tall defender now but could be the best within two years .... .

 

[El_Scorcho]

I'm spewing even harder now than when was dropped initially.

At the time he was borderline on form (despite the bleating at the time, he'd been very good in the Showdown), but required for structure. Now he absolutely can't be picked unless Schulz gets injured and we still have the same structural issues, and we still have the issue of not putting games into a KPF prospect.

Not to mention, a confidence player is probably pretty low on confidence.

He could have played in the Brisbane game, gotten in on the act and set himself up for a really good season with a bag in a game we were always going to win. Now he'll probably languish in the reserves until Schulz has his obligatory 2 weeks out with a ruptured spleen.

You'd assume Lonergan takes Schulz this week and one of Taylor or Rivers takes Westhoff, with the other playing loose. If Taylor gets the 21 disposals that Eric Mackenzie had because he was allowed to play loose, he'll destroy us.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I wasn't suggesting making Butch a permanent defender, although I can see how my references to other players could be construed that way.

It was more of a suggestion that giving him a look at the ball from the other end of the ground could give him the confidence to go on with it as a forward.
I believe the club has nothing to lose by giving it a try, anyway, I will be at Alberton on saturday, and here's hoping he kicks a bag.

A player who went the other way of course was Tim Evans, who was a beautiful kick as a chb, but was sometimes exposed for a lack of pace in that position, legend says Jack saw him slot 5 or 6 goals from outside 50 at training one night, put him at full forward against the gay bays in a coca cola cup game at footy park the following weekend, and the rest as they say is history.

Yep true, I think it was the Datsun Cup midweek competition back then. Funny thing was in that game he kicked 3.4 after Cahill liked him for his accurate kicking at training. Thankfully Jack persisted ...

 

[El_Scorcho]

He was in our best AFL 22 according to half of this board 2 games ago.

He does not need to be moved to defence. Pinch hitting there is fine but that's is.

Honestly, i'd rather we persist with him as a tall forward with no success until we delist him in 4 or 5 years than to move him to a position where we have pretty good depth already. We absolutely need to develop a tall forward. Plenty of top AFL key forwards weren't looking the business at 21 years of age, and we'll see two of them this week in Schulz and Hawkins.

 

[Powerstufff]

Disagree

Right back atcha.
Been a while since this one has come up but Chad Cornes made Wazza look like a marksman back then. Just took a lot of grabs up forward when tried there, but converted nowhere near enough. There's a reason he was moved down back and won his fame there.

 

[HaroldOliver]

A player who went the other way of course was Tim Evans, who was a beautiful kick as a chb, but was sometimes exposed for a lack of pace in that position, legend says Jack saw him slot 5 or 6 goals from outside 50 at training one night, put him at full forward against the gay bays in a coca cola cup game at footy park the following weekend, and the rest as they say is history.

I believe Timmy won some money from Jack at that particular training session.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I believe Timmy won some money from Jack at that particular training session.

Jack would have hated that, Tim was lucky to get another game.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Right back atcha.
Been a while since this one has come up but Chad Cornes made Wazza look like a marksman back then. Just took a lot of grabs up forward when tried there, but converted nowhere near enough. There's a reason he was moved down back and won his fame there.

Chad was a terrific forward with the most laughably consistently bad set shot i've ever seen. If I could have live bet on him missing set shots during his years with us, i'd have made a fortune.

However, I think he was better earlier on in his career then got worse, and all I can remember is the worse.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Alternatively we play Butch as a giant half forward flanker. He has the engine to run up and down the flanks and will create mis-matches.

 

[philthy05]

butcher is 22 years old. if you are kind and write off the first season with back stress fractures where he couldnt do anything but let them heal you would compare him to every other 21 year old key forward.

now go through the list of forwards in the afl and put a line through every key forward who didnt have better than 66 marks , 33 goals and a haul of 6 in one game and 23 matches under their belt by the age of 21...

im going to guess you are left with 2 or 3 forwards from the 500 key forwards drafted over the last ten years.

needs more time..

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Butcher just doesn't suit SANFL. People are happy to say the same of O'Shea who looks great in the AFL but poor in the SANFL, and it's the same with Butcher.

I want him in the team, but unfortunately I think I won't get my wish for a while.

 

[Powerstufff]

Jack would have hated that, Tim was lucky to get another game.

That assumes Jack paid up.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Another thought, have him tag Harry Taylor this week. Negate Harry's influence and he'll drag Butch to dangerous spots in the forward line.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

That assumes Jack paid up.

Gave him a discount on a used car. Take that Tim.

 

[Phhht]

Right back atcha.
Been a while since this one has come up but Chad Cornes made Wazza look like a marksman back then. Just took a lot of grabs up forward when tried there, but converted nowhere near enough. There's a reason he was moved down back and won his fame there.

What utter tripe. Chad was NOT turned into a defender because he was an average set shot goal shooter.

Its an old chestnut you want to keep misconstruing, albeit with a slight twist where you now claim it was his set shot kicking that was his undoing as a promising KPF.

*Edit: FYI, 1999-2003 goal kicking accuracy. WGT - 57%, CSC - 52%.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Butcher just doesn't suit SANFL. People are happy to say the same of O'Shea who looks great in the AFL but poor in the SANFL, and it's the same with Butcher.

Exactly.

Another thought, have him tag Harry Taylor this week. Negate Harry's influence and he'll drag Butch to dangerous spots in the forward line.

This would be a fantastic role for both our team and for Butch's development. They are going to run Taylor or Rivers on Westhoff you'd imagine and tell the other one to get free and create mismatches. Taylor is really dangerous when he does this and Rivers is basically a utility. If we pick Butcher (which we really can't given his last SANFL game), they'd try to run Taylor or Rivers off of him which is a matchup we could use to our advantage, picking our Butch on our defensive slingshots to keep his opponent accountable and use Butch's speed and running power to keep him honest the other way.

 

[BornPort]

Butcher just doesn't suit SANFL. People are happy to say the same of O'Shea who looks great in the AFL but poor in the SANFL, and it's the same with Butcher.

I want him in the team, but unfortunately I think I won't get my wish for a while.

I wouldnt say Butcher looks great at AFL level. If he did he wouldn't have been dropped.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

I wouldnt say Butcher looks great at AFL level. If he did he wouldn't have been dropped.

He looks far better at AFL level than SANFL level is my point.

 

[bomberclifford]

If Butcher was played in defence on the weekend then this indicates that Hinkley and Hocking have a plan for him.
Whether that plan is to turn Butcher into a defender or simply to give him game time out of his comfort zone, only they would know.

One thing is for certain, I'd be very surprised if we've written him off at this stage.