Opinion Butcher

[PA88]

No they're not, bar the usual suspects here. Really they're not.
Based on?

In most sanfl games he's presented himself more than previous seasons (although interrupted seasons). He's taken more marks and placed himself in better positions in contests to take more marks. His leading appears to be timed better. His pressure and tackling is better this season. He's working harder in games. He's finding more opportunity to score goals. I don't tally or read stats, I just watch the game and watch the outcome of our attacks, and he's involved in quite a few. His set-shot kicking is his let down, as we know.

Usual suspects or not, Butcher has improved his game. For me, I don't think it is enough to play afl. I thought Butcher was gifted his afl games early this season.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

I'm going to come out and say it... Mitch Harvey will overtake him before long.

Is rated very highly at the club I can assure you.

 

[raptalia]

In most sanfl games he's presented himself more than previous seasons (although interrupted seasons). He's taken more marks and placed himself in better positions in contests to take more marks. His leading appears to be timed better. His pressure and tackling is better this season. He's working harder in games. He's finding more opportunity to score goals. I don't tally or read stats, I just watch the game and watch the outcome of our attacks, and he's involved in quite a few. His set-shot kicking is his let down, as we know.

Usual suspects or not, Butcher has improved his game. For me, I don't think it is enough to play afl. I thought Butcher was gifted his afl games early this season.

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

 

[Adz2332]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

Still a year to run on his current contract and with hardly any KPP he would still surely be given next year, 25, to prove his worth

 

[Zakk Wylde]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

Agree with that mate, except the trading part. We're better off holding and still trying to develop him as best we can.

 

[Forzaport]

I'm going to come out and say it... Mitch Harvey will overtake him before long.

Is rated very highly at the club I can assure you.

And this is why it is critical to recruit multiple KPP options as you just don't know which ones will come on and which won't. Putting all your eggs in one basket and only recruiting the best KPP available in a given draft year is no guarantee of success.

It's a massive relief that we've put so much effort into KPP recruiting in the past 2 years.

 

[1954]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

I agree, unless there is major improvement in Butch's 2nd half of the season there is a very strong chance he will be put up for trade while he still has currency, and the club is in a position to call the shots.

It is probably unlikely he will be offered a 3 year contract again, and if he doesn't agree to a shorter term ( possibly 1 year at a time ) he can walk for nada at the end of 2015.

Like the axeman, I also agree that Harvey is poised to go past him in the pecking order, and by this time next season could very well be a long way in front.

 

[Phhht]

Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

No

Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

Trade him for what exactly? A packet of chips? Another medium defender? Pick 39? what do you think we would get for Butcher right now?

 

[Nelso]

I'm going to come out and say it... Mitch Harvey will overtake him before long.

Is rated very highly at the club I can assure you.

I agree 100%. Harvey is the one to look forward to.

If we must play 3 talls up forward I would play Jacko up forward and bring in Clurey.

We must keep Clurey at all costs. We can't afford to lose him to another club seeking more playing time.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

The only thing I get from people jumping on a new key forward bandwagon is a sense of deja vu. Last year and this pre-season it was the Mason Shaw hype train, then he had a couple of solid but not mindblowing performances in our hitouts, got injured and people started coming out with "I don't see aggression in his game, not sure if he'll make it" and moved on to Mitch Harvey.

I'm sure if Harvey doesn't blow minds next year, if we recruit a key forward in this upcoming draft, people will start to look to him as the saviour.

Just be patient with all of 'em. Although a lot of us want Butcher in because we believe he's a very big talent with a very shonky shot on goal, but structurally he helps players like Westhoff, our record suggests we've got time to be patient with our developing key forwards.

We're only halfway through the season.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

The thing about Harvey is it is literally his first season, coming from a long way back fitness/skin fold wise. What sets him apart from Butch and Shaw it this point is that fact he has that bit of campaigner in him...

Speaking to a few club people, they all expect him to be the one...

 

[beenreal]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

Butch is about to turn 23 (July 3, 1991). Sure he sprays set shots but for all the talk of the past 4-years he has just completed his first proper pre-season. I've never compared his goal-kicking to Tredrea or Westhoff but we are now seeing consistency in his on field performance.

Much like Tredrea and Westhoff, he is very good overhead and below his knees. A main drawback is he doesn't seem to have enough SH!T in him but I'll be very surprised if the club doesn't persevere.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Again, why is he not in the AFL side? He seems to be doing everything right in the SANFL side. So is it coming down to his set-shot on goal that's keeping him out of the AFL side?

Because he's not doing something that the coaching staff would like him to be doing, and they're willing to sacrifice ideal structure in order to hold him off until they are happy for him to go in.

It might be his set shot accuracy, it might be something else. Nobody knows. But every noise made by the coaching staff indicates that 3 tall forwards is where we want to be

 

[El_Scorcho]

The thing about Harvey is it is literally his first season, coming from a long way back fitness/skin fold wise. What sets him apart from Butch and Shaw it this point is that fact he has that bit of campaigner in him...

Speaking to a few club people, they all expect him to be the one...

I see the same thing in Harvey. He absolutely has all the tools to become an incredibly effective gorilla KPF in this league.

He's absolutely got the frame to become a Cloke/Hawkins type beast. He just needs to trim some puppy fat and add muscle. He probably doesn't have the skill level to get approach the Tredrea level, but not every KPF can be Tredrea. Ideally he develops into a Cloke who can kick, and we'll have an absolute monster.

He needs to develop an engine to stay in games for longer. If he was an elite runner I believe he'd have already forced his way in the AFL side ahead of Butch, but he doesn't have the workrate just yet. Developing his engine and workrate will be the key with him.

I know i'm the unofficial president of the #PickButcher campaign, but I foresee a future 5 or 6 years from now where Harvey is our main man and Butcher is the second tall, and I think it can be devastatingly effective.

 

[chiwigi]

Please no more Trengove up forward. He got in the bloody way.

 

[El_Scorcho]

No they're not, bar the usual suspects here. Really they're not.

Have a look at the Changes v Saints thread. Before the team was announced, a comfortable majority wanted him in.

Every time we play a game where it's obvious we need the extra tall, everyone wants Butcher in.

Every time we play a team that we totally outclass in every facet and the need for the 3rd tall isn't as pressing and/or Butcher has a quiet game in the SANFL, people don't want him in.

Even I wasn't calling for his inclusion after his last SANFL effort.

 

[PatientMental]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old.

I stopped reading after here. He's 22. Get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Please no more Trengove up forward. He got in the bloody way.

He'll have plenty of work to do down back this week

 

[Jack Grange]

I agree 100%. Harvey is the one to look forward to.

If we must play 3 talls up forward I would play Jacko up forward and bring in Clurey.

We must keep Clurey at all costs. We can't afford to lose him to another club seeking more playing time.

That is one option BUT the other is in fact playing Clurey as a Key Tall Fwd. He has played there in U/18 and don't know why he has not been tried there. In fact from memory in the pre draft talk it was highlighted that Clurey had played as a KPP with great endurance. Plus he has the experience of how a defender operates. IMHO worth a go!

 

[raman]

I'm all for trying Clurey forward too. He's the most ready-to-go of our young talls, unquestionably. But the fact that he hasn't been played forward in the SANFL (I think?) means it looks like it's not on the radar at this stage.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

Have a look at the Changes v Saints thread. Before the team was announced, a comfortable majority wanted him in.

Every time we play a game where it's obvious we need the extra tall, everyone wants Butcher in.

Every time we play a team that we totally outclass in every facet and the need for the 3rd tall isn't as pressing and/or Butcher has a quiet game in the SANFL, people don't want him in.

Even I wasn't calling for his inclusion after his last SANFL effort.

I was expecting the El Scorcho wrath !!!

Mate I want Butch to succeed... His work rate is exceptional and all the boys love him.

I've sat on the fence for a while with this one, and after having a real good chat with somebody from the club, the more I hear about Mitch Harvey, the more excited I'm getting. You'd smile at some of the things I've heard during the week.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I agree with your post PA88. I have not been to a Port Magpies game this year but from what I have seen on TV Butcher's involvement is higher but with little improvement in outcome. Let's be candid about it, Butcher is now 24 years old has had a full pre-season and is playing in the SANFL. He should be tearing it up in the SANFL but he isn't.

Yeah he's been ****ing shithouse if you don't count his 3 goal a game average because it doesn't suit your argument. He's always gets the best defender and he's still been the best KPF on the ground in most of the SANFL games he's played.

There is still some time but from what I have seen I do not think Butcher has what many of us hoped he would. If Butcher was seen as the future by Kenny he would be in the AFL side. He isn't and what is more does not look like getting back anytime soon. I would not be at all surprised if Butcher, contracted or not, is put on the trade table at the end of the year. Surely his own management should be telling him that a fresh start is needed?

While we're making ridiculous arguments, If Mitch Harvey was considered the future by Kenny, he'd be in the AFL side.

Someone has been incredibly spoiled by the likes of Wines, Wingard and Impey making instant impacts.

Have a look around the league, there are only a handful of KPFs younger than Butcher who have made a bigger impact at AFL level. You're just being impatient because you either have no idea about footy or you are itching to say "I told you so" if we end up trading Butcher.

Here's a rule that should be obvious to anybody who knows anything about list management: You don't trade KPFs under 25 (especially ones taken in the top 10 in the draft, and especially ones who have had their development stalled by injury) unless you're getting a ridiculous overs deal.

If we traded away every KPF who hadn't made it by 22, we'd have said goodbye to Westhoff and we wouldn't have bothered with Schulz because he was already too old and hadn't made it yet.

I think the majority of Port supporters are beginning to think like you and me PA88. We want Butcher to succeed, note some improvement but do not think he has it in him to perform consistently at AFL level. Against those thoughts I think we should seriously look to a trade while Butcher still has some currency.

He doesn't have any currency. A trade at the moment would be for a late 2nd rounder at best. It would be pretty similar to when Richmond made an awful error and threw away Schulz for effectively nothing because they didn't give him time.

It is about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times more intelligent from a list management point of view now to persist with Butcher until he fails than to trade him for a Mitch Farmeresque player who wont get a game for us, or for a 3rd rounder. KPFs don't grow on trees, and we have a guy who has kicked a couple of bags at AFL level before having his development halted by injury.

That's not even to mention that currently, however you'd like to spin it, he's our 3rd best KPF, and one of only 3 KPFs on our list with any AFL experience. We have nobody else ready to go at the moment. If we trade him away, even if we draft a replacement, we're looking at 3 guys who are a mile away from AFL ready coming in if Schulz or Westhoff get injured and miss games. It would be an enormous list management **** up.

Trading him now would be like taking the deal after the first round of Deal or no Deal. We'll get effectively nothing and throw away a lot of potential.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I was expecting the El Scorcho wrath !!!

Oh there was some wrath! I just totally agree about most of what you're saying, especially re Harvey. He's probably the SANFL player i'm most excited about going forward, and I was over the moon when we took him.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm hoping for a Travis Cloke clone who can kick like Schulz.

 

[raptalia]

No

Trade him for what exactly? A packet of chips? Another medium defender? Pick 39? what do you think we would get for Butcher right now?

Not much, but I think we could still put him up for trade. St Kilda saw something in Barry Brookes that the rest of us did not see so anything is possible. Butcher might make it at another club but on the evidence atm he is going to have to do something special to regain and hold a spot in our AFL side.

If we were offered pick 39 for Butcher I would be tempted as there have been a lot of good players taken around pick 39. I any case if we did a 'trade on' deal involving the 39 pick for Scott Lycett I would do it. All pure fantasy I know but there are possibilities. If Scott Lycett wanted to come home badly enough and it involved trading Butcher I would do it. I see more future for a player like Lycett at Port than I do in Butcher.

The excuses have just about run out for Butcher and I repeat that he should be burning the SANFL up but he isn't. Ken Hinkley has been pretty public about expecting more from Butcher and the fact that Butcher is not in the AFL side must surely suggest that Kenny does not feel he is getting what he expects. In fact Ken was pretty candid in some of his comments about Butcher. I suspect that Kenny's patience is wearing thin and the ball is in Butcher's court. The bottom line is that it does not really matter what any of us think the people who count are the Coaches and I cannot believe that they are happy with John Butcher's form.

 

[Phhht]

Not much, but I think we could still put him up for trade. St Kilda saw something in Barry Brookes that the rest of us did not see so anything is possible. Butcher might make it at another club but on the evidence atm he is going to have to do something special to regain and hold a spot in our AFL side.

If we were offered pick 39 for Butcher I would be tempted as there have been a lot of good players taken around pick 39. I any case if we did a 'trade on' deal involving the 39 pick for Scott Lycett I would do it. All pure fantasy I know but there are possibilities. If Scott Lycett wanted to come home badly enough and it involved trading Butcher I would do it. I see more future for a player like Lycett at Port than I do in Butcher.

The excuses have just about run out for Butcher and I repeat that he should be burning the SANFL up but he isn't. Ken Hinkley has been pretty public about expecting more from Butcher and the fact that Butcher is not in the AFL side must surely suggest that Kenny does not feel he is getting what he expects. In fact Ken was pretty candid in some of his comments about Butcher. I suspect that Kenny's patience is wearing thin and the ball is in Butcher's court. The bottom line is that it does not really matter what any of us think the people who count are the Coaches and I cannot believe that they are happy with John Butcher's form.

They are your opinions and you are entitled to have them. I disagree with about 90% of what you say though.

Personally the last thing I'd be doing is giving up on a 22yo -> 23yo KPF that is just starting to get confidence in his body for the princely some of a packet of chips. If you would trade out Butcher for 39 or some such pick and then value Lycett for around the same mark, I'd suggest we keep Butcher and use our 2nd rounder for Lycett and have BOTH on our list.

There is no point trading out one potential KPF for another one. Lets get rid of the list clogging mids/defenders/small fwds and load up on KPFs. Not swap one for another.