Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Pessimistic]

Murphy's about to sign another extension too. Lol.

Gotta admire the Carlton fans patience and their better off supporters deep pockets.

Cos the last couple of decades would have sent three Fitzroys into oblivion

 

[La Dispute]

I'm unclear if your middle of the road reference is talking about Hawthorn , Carlton or both here?

Carlton are no longer in the 'developing' category given their current age profile. They have a middle age bracket list with a below middle of the road performing list, and don't have the excuse they are coming off the end of a super successful era. Right now both clubs are interesting in this discussion, because they are both showing that you can fail no matter which end of the list management spectrum you wish to take. The main difference being that Hawthorn could afford to take a risk with their strategy because they had 4 flags in the bag in the last 12 years, and trying to prop it up for one more was probably worth a short (even if it looks like a failed strategy through the lens of the last 6 games, where our only win was against a even more disappointing Carlton). Carlton have gone all in on a failed strategy with zero success after following their 'go to the draft hard and often' approach. No Hawk fan would be happy with our current predicament where we can only bank wins over Carlton, but at least we have some recent success to soften the blow.

The difference being we will shed our older players in Murphy, Kreuzer, Simpson and Curnow over the next few years and it'll be a relatively easy transition as none of these players are in our best 5 players. All their positions are covered by young players: Fisher, Williamson, TDK, Kennedy. Hawthorn are still very reliant on older players.

Our approach has hardly been a failed strategy - what it is is a prolonged build. Whether we go on to become a competitive team or mellow into mid-range team like Essendon or the Bulldogs is anyone's guess, but we've at any absolute base level got a very good core to work with.

 

[station to station]

Hawks aren’t a premiership team in decline. They traded heavily to specifically to avoid that fate. They are a team of mercenaries looking to contend, playing mediocre football.

 

[Pessimistic]

The difference being we will shed our older players in Murphy, Kreuzer, Simpson and Curnow over the next few years and it'll be a relatively easy transition as none of these players are in our best 5 players. All their positions are covered by young players: Fisher, Williamson, TDK, Kennedy. Hawthorn are still very reliant on older players.

Our approach has hardly been a failed strategy - what it is is a prolonged build. Whether we go on to become a competitive team or mellow into mid-range team like Essendon or the Bulldogs is anyone's guess, but we've at any absolute base level got a very good core to work with.

To have credibility you need to justify that. Hawks BNF 2019 (not including Mitchell) Worpel Henderson O'Meara Sicily Hardwick - only Henderson is as old as the carlton players you quotes and the next 'oldie' is McEvoy in 8th. Hendo may not play again but I do rate McEvoy as still important

Prolonged build that a good description. Whats the key to avoid that?

Last point. opinion, cos Carlton has never been tested properly - 25 years- a generation since a Carlton flag. I guarantee Hawks will have at least one before our threepeat team are celebrating the 25th anniversary.

Would that be the "Success" the thread is referring to?

 

[Kram]

Clarkson was a great until he went all crazy Vossy.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Scully and Ceglar are potatoes and not sure where Howe is at? Hawks fans will know. Shiels seems to have fallen off and I am not sure you can role with all of Mitchell, Worpel and Omeara in the midfield together. Need to trade one or teach one or two of them to contribute elsewhere.

FB: Hardwick - Frost - Scrimshaw
HB: Day - Sicily - Impey
C: ???? - O'Meara - ????
R: ???? - Mitchell - Worpel
HF: Wingard - Gunston - ????
FF: Bruest - Lewis - ????
IC: ???? - ???? - ???? - ????

I rate Lewis but he has a way to go but they need at least 1 more KPF, 1 quality KPD, a decent ruckman, a high quality mid that isn't one paced and/or is highly skilled and to replace both wingers. Not only that, they have to do it within 2-3 years or Bruest and Gunston will be passed it and they will need to replace them as well.

I reckon that's a pretty fair assessment. Howe has been injured all year so no idea if he comes back and recaptures his previous form (was cracking against Geelong last year where he did a super job on Danger). So filling in the blanks -

Jiath or Glass at least on one of the wings. Nash was far from our worst and has been run off the wing at Box Hill to decent effect.

Jackson Ross at HFF - third in the goal kicking in the VFL last year yet Clarkson won't play him for some reason.

I think we still persist with Patton - so he at least gets a bench spot. He's a big unit and if he can actually provide some physical presence that would go a long way to alleviating one of our major problems.

Finn Maginness and/or Harrison Jones to be brought into the midfield. Let them take their time - it might take a bit to learn the craft but it's not like we'll be playing finals this year.

As for the rucks, we might have to go with Ned Reeves - he's a frigging giant. Might not give much more but at least will give us a chance at getting first use of the ball. I reckon we still look a little thin up back so Jacob Koschitzke should also probably get a run. Matthew Walker showed some real glimpses of flair last year (struggled towards the latter part of the season but still worth rolling the dice). So with the current list we could run with something like this:

FB: Hardwick - Frost - Scrimshaw
HB: Day - Sicily - Impey
C: Jiath - O'Meara - Glass
R: Reeves- Mitchell - Worpel
HF: Wingard - Gunston - Walker
FF: Bruest - Lewis - Ross
IC: Patton- Koschitzke - Maginness - Jones

It would be an inexperienced side but looks more balanced and dare I say it pacey than the side we put out last night. Cousins, Nash, Hanrahan and Moore have all played senior level AFL and could easily come in as well.

 

[juss]

I think you answered your question. What do Hawks need to do to get into Carlton/Melbourne obscurity?, cos they've stuck to your suggestions resolutely.

Good organizations don't have successive bad years

So then what would you suggest the Hawks do from here?

 

[Pessimistic]

So then what would you suggest the Hawks do from here?

Employ the best admin (oh that right they have that) and carry on as before (where players are replaced 50% from trades and 50% from draft and develop)

 

[Hot Diggity]

So then what would you suggest the Hawks do from here?

I think we should retire from the AFL and play ammos.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Clarkson was a great until he went all crazy Vossy.

Coming from a fan of a club that had Ross ****ing Lyon that's a bit rich.

 

[Hot Diggity]

I wouldn’t have Ceglar as any worse than Nankervis, Soldo, Vardy, Roughead who are premiership ruckman.

Oh, believe me, you would!

 

[Hot Diggity]

The difference being we will shed our older players in Murphy, Kreuzer, Simpson and Curnow over the next few years and it'll be a relatively easy transition as none of these players are in our best 5 players. All their positions are covered by young players: Fisher, Williamson, TDK, Kennedy. Hawthorn are still very reliant on older players.

Our approach has hardly been a failed strategy - what it is is a prolonged build. Whether we go on to become a competitive team or mellow into mid-range team like Essendon or the Bulldogs is anyone's guess, but we've at any absolute base level got a very good core to work with.

Prolonged build - what you builidng, the Sagrada Familia?

 

[Pessimistic]

I reckon that's a pretty fair assessment. Howe has been injured all year so no idea if he comes back and recaptures his previous form (was cracking against Geelong last year where he did a super job on Danger). So filling in the blanks -

Jiath or Glass at least on one of the wings. Nash was far from our worst and has been run off the wing at Box Hill to decent effect.

Jackson Ross at HFF - third in the goal kicking in the VFL last year yet Clarkson won't play him for some reason.

I think we still persist with Patton - so he at least gets a bench spot. He's a big unit and if he can actually provide some physical presence that would go a long way to alleviating one of our major problems.

Finn Maginness and/or Harrison Jones to be brought into the midfield. Let them take their time - it might take a bit to learn the craft but it's not like we'll be playing finals this year.

As for the rucks, we might have to go with Ned Reeves - he's a frigging giant. Might not give much more but at least will give us a chance at getting first use of the ball. I reckon we still look a little thin up back so Jacob Koschitzke should also probably get a run. Matthew Walker showed some real glimpses of flair last year (struggled towards the latter part of the season but still worth rolling the dice). So with the current list we could run with something like this:

FB: Hardwick - Frost - Scrimshaw
HB: Day - Sicily - Impey
C: Jiath - O'Meara - Glass
R: Reeves- Mitchell - Worpel
HF: Wingard - Gunston - Walker
FF: Bruest - Lewis - Ross
IC: Patton- Koschitzke - Maginness - Jones

It would be an inexperienced side but looks more balanced and dare I say it pacey than the side we put out last night. Cousins, Nash, Hanrahan and Moore have all played senior level AFL and could easily come in as well.

Ross wont help in the quest for early picks cos hes got smarts and can create goals from nothing

 

[Pessimistic]

Prolonged build - what you builidng, the Sagrada Familia?

These posters. start posting mild shit but if you draw them they post complete howlers

 

[Hot Diggity]

Is Scully cooked?

He's absolutely shit, that's what he is. Never seen a softer, half-hearted squib in my life.

 

[Hot Diggity]

That 22 looks awful in all honesty. Their entire midfield has reached its peak, and for most of those guys their absolute best wasn't even that good. The balance is also completely off, with way too many slow mids with bad footskills.

No real key defenders developing currently. Lewis Mitchell is their only talented key forward, but he has less than 30 games experience. Ceglar is a bad ruckman.

It's just a real mess, with no real light at the end of the tunnel currently. Will Day isn't going to bring him back into contention on his own.

Lewis has a stinking attitude unfortunately - don't be surprised if we move him on.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hawks aren’t a premiership team in decline. They traded heavily to specifically to avoid that fate. They are a team of mercenaries looking to contend, playing mediocre football.

No they aren't, look up what a mercenary is before making stupid comments.

 

[Hot Diggity]

LOL, you actually think being made the coach as a marketing gimmick means anything? They could've hired anyone to coach them at that point and they still would've finished bottom for 2-3 years. How embarrassing of you.

They would have still finished bottom 2-3, but what Sheedy did was teach them how do be a football club. Same as West COast did getting Malthouse in, and the same as Clarko did for us - set the standards (or re-set in our case) and build on them.

If Sheedy had coached the Suns from day dot, then they would not be in the situation they are in now. Appointing a rookie coach was a massive error.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Cant wait for the excuse this week. We’ve had poor kicking, umpires, the ground being too small what’s next?

I know, riddled with excuses. Next it'll be we ran out of smelling salts and peptides before we left Melbourne and we've been struggling ever since.

 

[Hot Diggity]

The problem with Hawthorn is that their coach is a sooky lala.

The problem with St Kilda every one of your coaches has been shit bar 1, and look what he achieved when he went to a club that didn't accept mediocrity...

 

[Hot Diggity]

I am more than happy to admit that we are absolutely shit at the moment and i understand many want to dance on our grave. Fair enough, that's being a fan.

But for so many of you, don't forget where your respective coaches, support staff, and admin came from. That's right, Hawthorn.

Dimma, Bevo, Ratts, Simmo, Fagan, Dew - all learnt under the master.

Don't forget Rath, Evans, Hodge, Hale (and there will be more)

The AFL has Clarko and Hawthorn's fingerprints all over it, and if it wasn't for that, you'd probably all still be rat shit.

Special mention for Geelong - Kennett unashamedly said we have tried to model our culture and admin on them, so you lot are exempt from this rant.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Another harsh reality check for the Hawks.

Last week does now look like an aberration..

Unfortunately your fade outs aren't an aberration!

 

[La Dispute]

Lewis has a stinking attitude unfortunately - don't be surprised if we move him on.

That's the worst possible thing you could do, he's one of the few talented young players on your list.

Attitude can be worked on.

 

[Ambrosia]

The difference being we will shed our older players in Murphy, Kreuzer, Simpson and Curnow over the next few years and it'll be a relatively easy transition as none of these players are in our best 5 players. All their positions are covered by young players: Fisher, Williamson, TDK, Kennedy. Hawthorn are still very reliant on older players.

Our approach has hardly been a failed strategy - what it is is a prolonged build. Whether we go on to become a competitive team or mellow into mid-range team like Essendon or the Bulldogs is anyone's guess, but we've at any absolute base level got a very good core to work with.

I don’t think Carlton are a good comparison. Their list had an extreme deficit of quality players in the prime of their career and due to poor drafting had limited young players coming through.

Carton’s rebuild looks decent but clubs shouldn’t try and emulate it but they’ve been terrible for years. In today’s age of compromised drafts, free agency and no priority picks dropping to the bottom of the ladder should be absolute last resort imo.

 

[Hot Diggity]

The angry dwarfs stubborn ignorance will run that club into the ground

Unfortunately you had a condescending sex pest run yours into the ground.