Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Sonny Hayes]

Get the feeling they put far too much stock in beating West Coast last year in the final round.

2020 could have been the first year of their list rebuild (or whatever the word is these days). The losing wouldn’t be half as depressing if they’d gone to the draft last year and turned over the list.

- Not signing some or all of Puopolo, Minchington, Hartley, Brooksby, Burgoyne and Patton.

- Trading out one of Ceglar or McEvoy and keeping Pittonet

That’s 6 or 7 extra kids they could have on the list at this stage. Sure maybe only 1 or 2 of them would of made it but at least the club list would have direction.

We went to the Draft last year... Day in the first round, Finn as father son.

Even bringing back those veterans on next to nothing doesn't delay that really. Cegs was a free agent so we wouldn't have really gotten anything for him and Big Boy would have had to have wanted to leave. I also still don't rate Pitt as anything more than an okay depth ruck.

 

[Juddernaut08]

We went to the Draft last year... Day in the first round, Finn as father son.

Even bringing back those veterans on next to nothing doesn't delay that really. Cegs was a free agent so we wouldn't have really gotten anything for him and Big Boy would have had to have wanted to leave. I also still don't rate Pitt as anything more than an okay depth ruck.

Whats wrong with Pittonet? Been doing well as a no.1 ruck. Certainly better than ok depth.

Dw we felt the same way when we gave away Jacobs for nothing.

Bloody adelaide.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Whats wrong with Pittonet? Been doing well as a no.1 ruck. Certainly better than ok depth.

Dw we felt the same way when we gave away Jacobs for nothing.

Bloody adelaide.

Nothing wrong with him, but a rebuild is not going to hinge on Pitt. He competes okay in the ruck but hasn't got a lot of other strings to his bow.

I love his physicality and he is a great team guy but he is just a decent player nothing more.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Nothing wrong with him, but a rebuild is not going to hinge on Pitt. He competes okay in the ruck but hasn't got a lot of other strings to his bow.

I love his physicality and he is a great team guy but he is just a decent player nothing more.

Decent player I will take haha. Cheers

 

[FairKouta]

Don't worrie you guys will smash us. At the moment the issue we have go well above the talent on the field. It's got a Richmond 2016 feel about it. (I am not saying we have the same quality of list as that team)

I just hope we have the balls like they did to go down and have a massive review of the entire club as they did.

Hardly Richmond had
Cotchin
Rance
Dusty
Vlastuin
Grimes
Edwards
Houli in 2016
This maybe a carlton 2015 if you ask me.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hardly Richmond had
Cotchin
Rance
Dusty
Vlastuin
Grimes
Edwards
Houli in 2016
This maybe a carlton 2015 if you ask me.

Has a Hawthorn 2020 if you ask me

 

[Leeda]

lamb... slaughter.. chop my friend... harsh but true...

 

[HeHateMe]

Hardly Richmond had
Cotchin
Rance
Dusty
Vlastuin
Grimes
Edwards
Houli in 2016
This maybe a carlton 2015 if you ask me.

You have missed my point i tried to make it clear that I wasn't talking about lists but administration.

 

[FairKouta]

You have missed my point i tried to make it clear that I wasn't talking about lists but administration.

Hawks have been one of the most professionally run organisations since clarko came onboard. No player issues medical team extremely competent. I think this will need to be a pure football review and specifically playing list related. I’m not all doom and gloom on the hawks. The core is there just need to surround with elite young talent. Mitchell omeara sicilly and worpell are a good start.

 

[HeHateMe]

Hawks have been one of the most professionally run organisations since clarko came onboard. No player issues medical team extremely competent. I think this will need to be a pure football review and specifically playing list related. I’m not all doom and gloom on the hawks. The core is there just need to surround with elite young talent. Mitchell omeara sicilly and worpell are a good start.

That's your opinion, and the fact majority of the list is out of contract if they wanted to do such they could.

 

[Leeda]

rampant beligerism.. shorty will always work..

 

[FairKouta]

That's your opinion, and the fact majority of the list is out of contract if they wanted to do such they could.

Hard to without any trade currency or draft picks. I don’t think hawthorn have any player on their list that other clubs would pay a premium top 10 pick for.

 

[HeHateMe]

Hard to without any trade currency or draft picks. I don’t think hawthorn have any player on their list that other clubs would pay a premium top 10 pick for.

Your probably right but nothing stopping the club from delisting players who are out of contract.

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

No

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hard to without any trade currency or draft picks. I don’t think hawthorn have any player on their list that other clubs would pay a premium top 10 pick for.

I agree with almost all of what you have said but we do have draft picks, have everything except our own 2nd but we have Norths instead i believe which will be in a similar position.

 

[HTPunter]

Hardly Richmond had
Cotchin
Rance
Dusty
Vlastuin
Grimes
Edwards
Houli in 2016
This maybe a carlton 2015 if you ask me.

Yeah but you're looking at that 2016 list with 2020 hindsight.

So in 2016 they had a Brownlow Medallist in Cotchin, and 2 all Australian players in Rance and Martin.

No way did any non Richmond fans rate Houli, Edwards, Grimes and Vlastuin as being key top 10 players of the best side for the next 4 years (alongside Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Prestia +- Lynch and Rance).

Hawthorn have plenty of players comparable to that 2016 group. Not saying at all that they're going to go the way of the Tigers but it's not a good call to pretend that we all knew the Tigers were going to do what they did because they had Grimes and Edwards etc.

 

[giantsully]

Think this question has now been officially answered. The Swans Hawks comparison was always going to be interesting since we'e taken diametrically opposed approaches; that makes two seasons in a row we've done you and on the weekend in particular, any team with pretensions of finals footy should have used us as a percentage booster.

Swans probably won't win a flag any time soon but gee I'd much prefer to be in our shoes than the Hawks'. Sure Clarko might pull another miracle and win consecutive games to get into the finals - but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Leeda]

Think this question has now been officially answered. The Swans Hawks comparison was always going to be interesting since we'e taken diametrically opposed approaches; that makes two seasons in a row we've done you and on the weekend in particular, any team with pretensions of finals footy should have used us as a percentage booster.

Swans probably won't win a flag any time soon but gee I'd much prefer to be in our shoes than the Hawks'. Sure Clarko might pull another miracle and win consecutive games to get into the finals - but somehow I doubt it.

Clarko wins by default...?.. that is cheap.. he don't want no terminology that resolves itself into a nun chucker...

 

[FairKouta]

Yeah but you're looking at that 2016 list with 2020 hindsight.

So in 2016 they had a Brownlow Medallist in Cotchin, and 2 all Australian players in Rance and Martin.

No way did any non Richmond fans rate Houli, Edwards, Grimes and Vlastuin as being key top 10 players of the best side for the next 4 years (alongside Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Prestia +- Lynch and Rance).

Hawthorn have plenty of players comparable to that 2016 group. Not saying at all that they're going to go the way of the Tigers but it's not a good call to pretend that we all knew the Tigers were going to do what they did because they had Grimes and Edwards etc.

That is a fair comment but hawks don’t have the base of cotchin dusty rance reiwoldt.

 

[Millky95]

It was interesting to hear Clarkson say today that there isn’t really a “strategy” as such, more that they look at each situation on its merits and whether a trade provides value.

Wise in theory, but I think some tremendous missteps in assessing that value has landed them in some trouble.

Obviously talking about the O’Meara and Wingard trades.

A lot of convoluted trades, pick swaps and steak knives here and there... but taking all that out...

To get O’Meara and Wingard, the Hawks lost:

Brad Hill
Ryan Burton
2016 Pick 36
2017 Pick 7
2017 Pick 26
2018 Pick 15
2018 Pick 35

That’s a hell of a price. Hill is a star, Burton a 23yo solid senior player who the Hawks seemed to rate... and then there’s five good draft picks, which give a lot of scope for talented youth to come in.

What’s particularly significant is with the picks they have actually had, the Hawks have found themselves some decent kids. What could they have done with five more Top 40 picks?

Now if you were talking say two key forwards that you’d build a team around - or a key forward and a star mid - then okay. But is that O’Meara and Wingard? I don’t think so.

Ultimately it’s these two acquisitions that could end up really hurting Hawthorn.

The Hill trade is another interesting part of it. The Hawks only netted pick 23 for him (which they on-traded). When the Dockers later dealt him to St Kilda, they got pick 10, a 2020 R2 selection and Blake Acres in return.

Freo seemed to have made out like bandits when they acquired Hill from the Hawks. Perhaps the Hawks were too desperate to get that pick 23 in because they needed it for other deals, and didn’t really thrash out proper value in the trade.

Or:

IN: O'Meara, Wingard
OUT: Josh Williams (delisted), Hunter Clarke (Saints), Liam Ryan (WCE), Jordan Clark (Geelong), Bailey Williams (WCE)

Would those players be in the Hawks best 22 and provide more to the side than O'Meara and Wingard?

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Think this question has now been officially answered. The Swans Hawks comparison was always going to be interesting since we'e taken diametrically opposed approaches; that makes two seasons in a row we've done you and on the weekend in particular, any team with pretensions of finals footy should have used us as a percentage booster.

Swans probably won't win a flag any time soon but gee I'd much prefer to be in our shoes than the Hawks'. Sure Clarko might pull another miracle and win consecutive games to get into the finals - but somehow I doubt it.

Had all your senior players been available this year would you have gone down the same path with your youth or has injuries forced your hand?. Easy to make assumptions based on who you have out there right now. We have debuted 2 of our picks from last year's draft this year and 1 of them is looking like a gun. Also should be giving games to guys like Finn Mcguiness and Harry Jones ( young 21 ur old midfielder) very soon who are the future of the club in the midfield. We're people seem to be getting misled is the fact we are playing far too many over 30s when we don't really need to. They are contributing jack shit to the side bar Isaac Smith and at times Mcevoy. If they weren't in the side would we be better off? Absolutely and our list wouldn't suffer as much as people realise. The issue is Clarko and his game plan stifling the talents of the rest of the team ATM. The list is good enough if we play the right players and have the right style in place.

 

[WillHayward]

I would look to trade out one of breust or gunston.
Hit the draft with three picks in the first 20.

 

[PAFC_1870]

I would look to trade out one of breust or gunston.
Hit the draft with three picks in the first 20.

You seriously think they are worth much?

 

[Toump Ass]

Who knows what's going to happen in the next decade- 2020 is a crazy season but I'm not sure it'll be indicative of what's to come

Yeah it's so "crazy", isn't it? Still dorks haven't competed for 5 years already, looked shit last year, got bundled out of finals straight sets the year before that. At least the last couple of seasons you had some older players who could still get up for a game.

Your players are old and slow and the players who aren't old and slow are average.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Yeah it's so "crazy", isn't it? Still dorks haven't competed for 5 years already, looked sh*t last year, got bundled out of finals straight sets the year before that. At least the last couple of seasons you had some older players who could still get up for a game.

Your players are old and slow and the players who aren't old and slow are average.

Nice to see you up and about mate but our list will look completely different in 5 years yet alone 10.

Who knows if it will be any good or not but the wishing for 10 years at the bottom is nothing more than a wish from you champ.