Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[FairKouta]

Gunston to the lions would make the lions a genuine contender. I don’t know what his value would be 28 years old as good a goal kick as they come. Probably a late first rounder. Think it’s a win win or maybe a second and a young player coming in to the hawks.

 

[La Dispute]

I don’t think Carlton are a good comparison. Their list had an extreme deficit of quality players in the prime of their career and due to poor drafting had limited young players coming through.

Carton’s rebuild looks decent but clubs shouldn’t try and emulate it but they’ve been terrible for years. In today’s age of compromised drafts, free agency and no priority picks dropping to the bottom of the ladder should be absolute last resort imo.

I've said a similar thing since the start of the rebuild, but if you go down the path of Carlton did from 2013-2015 it's unavoidable. Hawthorn are now in a similar predicament.

The issue is fans aren't patient - especially supporters who have seen recent success - and will justify any shortcuts because it's preferable to contemplating the possibility the strategy may not be working.

 

[Pessimistic]

I've said a similar thing since the start of the rebuild, but if you go down the path of Carlton did from 2013-2015 it's unavoidable. Hawthorn are now in a similar predicament.

The issue is fans aren't patient - especially supporters who have seen recent success - and will justify any shortcuts because it's preferable to contemplating the possibility the strategy may not be working.

In the case of Carlton "The possibility the strategy may not be working" thanks gave me a laugh. below 80%: 2002-2007; 2015-2018. Ten years from 20
It does prove you are a loyal bunch
Hawks have peaked 3 times since then: 2001;2008;2015 next peak in 2022 may be a 'dissapointment'

 

[FairKouta]

I think you answered your question. What do Hawks need to do to get into Carlton/Melbourne obscurity?, cos they've stuck to your suggestions resolutely.

Good organizations don't have successive bad years

Hawks were bad for a while until clarko came around took you a whole

I think you answered your question. What do Hawks need to do to get into Carlton/Melbourne obscurity?, cos they've stuck to your suggestions resolutely.

Good organizations don't have successive bad years

Took hawks a whole 17 years to win another premiership after the 1991 until clarko came around. You had a whole line in the sand moment against the bombers who were I intimidated you for a while.
Granted you have been a very well organisation in the current era but this hubris is unwarranted.Carlton and Melbourne going through the same thing you guys did in the 90s and 2000s at the moment. No reason we can’t turn it around.
Clarko has all but conceded that young players will get opportunities. Probably signaling a rebuild is going to take place.

Better hope this rebuild nets you a buddy and a hodge

 

[Pessimistic]

Hawks were bad for a while until clarko came around took you a whole

Took hawks a whole 17 years to win another premiership after the 1991 until clarko came around. You had a whole line in the sand moment against the bombers who were I intimidated you for a while.
Granted you have been a very well organisation in the current era but this hubris is unwarranted.Carlton and Melbourne going through the same thing you guys did in the 90s and 2000s at the moment. No reason we can’t turn it around.
Clarko has all but conceded that young players will get opportunities. Probably signaling a rebuild is going to take place.

Better hope this rebuild nets you a buddy and a hodge

When they got Hodge, they were a kick away from a grand final unfortunately I dont think theres a freo willing to part with pick 1, just another indicator those times are past
Hawks have had one sub 80% year in generations. like other successful clubs

 

[Drunkcat]

Maybe Melbourne and Hawthorn should merge would be a strong side and Melbourne fans mite see a flag

 

[FairKouta]

When they got Hodge, they were a kick away from a grand final unfortunately I dont think theres a freo willing to part with pick 1, gust another indicator those times are past
Hawks have had one sub 80% year in generations. like other successful clubs
[/QUOTE

When they got Hodge, they were a kick away from a grand final unfortunately I dont think theres a freo willing to part with pick 1, gust another indicator those times are past
Hawks have had one sub 80% year in generations. like other successful clubs

Successful means premierships took you 17 years how ever you put ot.
The doggies were thereabouts for a while doesn’t mean successful. Hawks fans you had a great era. Time to rebuild. No one is saying your club is going to be a failure forever just time for a rebuild.

 

[Ambrosia]

I've said a similar thing since the start of the rebuild, but if you go down the path of Carlton did from 2013-2015 it's unavoidable. Hawthorn are now in a similar predicament.

The issue is fans aren't patient - especially supporters who have seen recent success - and will justify any shortcuts because it's preferable to contemplating the possibility the strategy may not be working.

I just don’t think Hawthorn’s predicament is similar to Carlton’s. I count 2015 as the start of Carlton’s rebuild and if you look at their list then the best players they had in the prime 24-29 age bracket were: Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Henderson, Tuohy and Curnow and Thomas. This is with hindsight but obviously the only young players who’ve made it from that time are: Cripps, Jones and Docherty.

I’d have the Hawthorn group of 25-29 year olds of Mitchell,O’Meara, Wingard, Sicily, Frost, Impey, Bruest, Shiels and Gunston plus young players Worpel, Hardwick, Day, Scrimshaw and Lewis as orders of magnitude better than Carlton’s 2015 group. That’s without even taking into account that some of Hawthorn’s unproven younger players probably make it unlike Carlton’s.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Hawks were bad for a while until clarko came around took you a whole

Took hawks a whole 17 years to win another premiership after the 1991 until clarko came around. You had a whole line in the sand moment against the bombers who were I intimidated you for a while.
Granted you have been a very well organisation in the current era but this hubris is unwarranted.Carlton and Melbourne going through the same thing you guys did in the 90s and 2000s at the moment. No reason we can’t turn it around.
Clarko has all but conceded that young players will get opportunities. Probably signaling a rebuild is going to take place.

Better hope this rebuild nets you a buddy and a hodge

No, Melbourne have won jack shit since 1964. There was never a time when they were seriously contenders - the 1988 and 2000 GFs proved that. Blown off the park.

Yes, we're shit now. But since 1964, Melbourne has done nothing to warrant any one to think they are turning it around.

Carlton? 20 years of mediocrity does not look like ending soon.

 

[FairKouta]

No, Melbourne have won jack sh*t since 1964. There was never a time when you were seriously contenders - the 1988 and 2000 GFs proved that. Blown off the park.

Yes, we're sh*t now. But since 1964, your organisation has done nothing to warrant any one to think you are turning it around.

We won a 1995 granny my friend made it to a 1999 granny beating a rampaging bombers.

 

[Hot Diggity]

We won a 1995 granny my friend made it to a 1999 granny beating a rampaging bombers.

Correct, hence my edit to my original post - glancing at your avatar and having MELBOURNE in capitals made me think you were a MEL fan. Read my edited posted.

 

[FairKouta]

No, Melbourne have won jack sh*t since 1964. There was never a time when they were seriously contenders - the 1988 and 2000 GFs proved that. Blown off the park.

Yes, we're sh*t now. But since 1964, Melbourne has done nothing to warrant any one to think they are turning it around.

Carlton? 20 years of mediocrity does not look like ending soon.

Oh wait you must think i am a Melbourne supporter. They made a preliminary have a great list. I don’t think the coach is upto it but i may be wrong as of today in a better position than hawthorn

 

[FairKouta]

No, Melbourne have won jack sh*t since 1964. There was never a time when they were seriously contenders - the 1988 and 2000 GFs proved that. Blown off the park.

Yes, we're sh*t now. But since 1964, Melbourne has done nothing to warrant any one to think they are turning it around.

Carlton? 20 years of mediocrity does not look like ending soon.

I am bullish in our list. Think we will be ok.
Hasn’t been this good since 1999.
Hopefully our administrators are upto it this time around.

 

[raffrox]

Coming from a fan of a club that had Ross ******* Lyon that's a bit rich.

Nah, Clarko has selfishly mortagaged the future of the Hawks quite nicely I reckon. It'll be debatable who would have left their team in a worse position. I'll take the 2020 Freo list over whatever you'll have in about two years when Clarko is gone. You'll be rock bottom then.

 

[Hot Diggity]

Nah, Clarko has selfishly mortagaged the future of the Hawks quite nicely I reckon. It'll be debatable who would have left their team in a worse position. I'll take the 2020 Freo list over whatever you'll have in about two years when Clarko is gone. You'll be rock bottom then.

I'd happily take the success i have seen over the dross that Freo has served up from its inauguration.

 

[Hot Diggity]

I am bullish in our list. Think we will be ok.
Hasn’t been this good since 1999.
Hopefully our administrators are upto it this time around.

There's talent there, no doubt. You have nailed it - the administrators need to be up to it. Been Carlton's own worst enemy over the years.

 

[FairKouta]

There's talent there, no doubt. You have nailed it - the administrators need to be up to it. Been Carlton's own worst enemy over the years.

Agreed

 

[La Dispute]

I just don’t think Hawthorn’s predicament is similar to Carlton’s. I count 2015 as the start of Carlton’s rebuild and if you look at their list then the best players they had in the prime 24-29 age bracket were: Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Henderson, Tuohy and Curnow and Thomas. This is with hindsight but obviously the only young players who’ve made it from that time are: Cripps, Jones and Docherty.

I’d have the Hawthorn group of 25-29 year olds of Mitchell,O’Meara, Wingard, Sicily, Frost, Impey, Bruest, Shiels and Gunston plus young players Worpel, Hardwick, Day, Scrimshaw and Lewis as orders of magnitude better than Carlton’s 2015 group. That’s without even taking into account that some of Hawthorn’s unproven younger players probably make it unlike Carlton’s.

It's not as much as big a stretch as you are suggesting. Hawthorn probably have more senior quality quantity-wise, but only Mitchell and Sicily are genuine A-graders. The rest are B or C graders, which as we have established over the life of this thread is deluding them into thinking they doing better than they actually are.

Hawthorn also don't any young players as good as Cripps or Docherty on their list, which was another reason it made it easier to flick the switch on the rebuild.

You can chop up groups as players and divide them all you like (and I think this is also part of the reason this mythology that Hawthorn are only one major trade away from being competitive again) the common theme is both lists didn't look like achieving anything in the short term and all the telltale signs were there the squad wouldn't be back in contention any time soon (ageing list, lack of promising youth, overpaid mercenaries).

Yes Carlton's list in 2015 was genuinely appalling, but this current Hawthorn lineup isn't that much better. I think opposition players worked out pretty early on we weren't a good place to go, whereas Hawthorn at least had some recent premierships as a selling point, and this helps to explain their current list complexion too.

 

[raffrox]

I'd happily take the success i have seen over the dross that Freo has served up from its inauguration.

Cool. Thanks. Means you know I'm right if you had to go there after one post.

Anything incorrect about what I posted?

No matter. Enjoy you're current trajectory

 

[Ambrosia]

It's not as much as big a stretch as you are suggesting. Hawthorn probably have more senior quality quantity-wise, but only Mitchell and Sicily are genuine A-graders. The rest are B or C graders, which as we have established over the life of this thread is deluding them into thinking they doing better than they actually are.

Hawthorn also don't any young players as good as Cripps or Docherty on their list, which was another reason it made it easier to flick the switch on the rebuild.

You can chop up groups as players and divide them all you like (and I think this is also part of the reason this mythology that Hawthorn are only one major trade away from being competitive again) the common theme is both lists didn't look like achieving anything in the short term and all the telltale signs were there the squad wouldn't be back in contention any time soon (ageing list, lack of promising youth, overpaid mercenaries).

Yes Carlton's list in 2015 was genuinely appalling, but this current Hawthorn lineup isn't that much better. I think opposition players worked out pretty early on we weren't a good place to go, whereas Hawthorn at least had some recent premierships as a selling point, and this helps to explain their current list complexion too.

Quantity and quality and it isn’t even close. I mean you may not rate Wingard or O’Meara but I’m backing them to be far better from 2021-2025 than all of Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Henderson and Tuohy were from 2016-2020.

Cripps and Docherty are good and Jones has come on but Carlton’s 2015 list literally has no other young player successes.

 

[juss]

Employ the best admin (oh that right they have that) and carry on as before (where players are replaced 50% from trades and 50% from draft and develop)

So just keep doing what they're doing? Geez I think the Hawks are in a world of hurt if they keep going as they are, because the recent strategy has failed.

 

[juss]

No, Melbourne have won jack sh*t since 1964. There was never a time when they were seriously contenders - the 1988 and 2000 GFs proved that. Blown off the park.

Yes, we're sh*t now. But since 1964, Melbourne has done nothing to warrant any one to think they are turning it around.

Carlton? 20 years of mediocrity does not look like ending soon.

Carlton are in a much better position for finals and potentially to contenders in the next 3-5 years than the Hawks are. You're delusional about your list state compared to theirs if you can't see that.

 

[La Dispute]

Quantity and quality and it isn’t even close. I mean you may not rate Wingard or O’Meara but I’m backing them to be far better from 2021-2025 than all of Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Henderson and Tuohy were from 2016-2020.

Cripps and Docherty are good and Jones has come on but Carlton’s 2015 list literally has no other young player successes.

Gibbs came into his own in the years just prior to and just after Judd retired and was a very good inside/outside mid for 4-5 years at Carlton. His peak was superior to O'Meara's, who has plateaued into an average player with appalling footskills.

The less said about Wingard the better, but my general opinion of him drops on an almost weekly basis. He's a complete fraud of a footballer, one of if not the biggest downhill skiers in the league, and certainly the most disappointing recent acquisition for Hawthorn.

So yes, it's pretty clear I rate neither of those guys and don't expect anything out of them over the next 5 years.

Cripps and Docherty are more than just 'good' - they are AA players, and looked that they'd develop into stars from their first seasons at Carlton. There are no young players at Hawthorn who you can say will become surefire stars.

Anyway mate, we know where your chips are stacked - Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[NeXus Nick]

The problem with St Kilda every one of your coaches has been sh*t bar 1, and look what he achieved when he went to a club that didn't accept mediocrity...

If you are talking about Alan Jeans then you are a flog of the highest. If you remember correctly he won a flag at St Kilda and got us to many finals series. Anyone with half a brain knows we were desperately unlucky not to have won at least one more flag and possibly even 2 (1965 and 1975). Sometimes you just need an ounce of luck (2009 & 2010). But I get it, winners are grinners (flogs).

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Gibbs came into his own in the years just prior to and just after Judd retired and was a very good inside/outside mid for 4-5 years at Carlton. His peak was superior to O'Meara's, who has plateaued into an average player with appalling footskills.

The less said about Wingard the better, but my general opinion of him drops on an almost weekly basis. He's a complete fraud of a footballer, one of if not the biggest downhill skiers in the league, and certainly the most disappointing recent acquisition for Hawthorn.

So yes, it's pretty clear I rate neither of those guys and don't expect anything out of them over the next 5 years.

Cripps and Docherty are more than just 'good' - they are AA players, and looked that they'd develop into stars from their first seasons at Carlton. There are no young players at Hawthorn who you can say will become surefire stars.

Anyway mate, we know where your chips are stacked - Keep fighting the good fight.

Largely against the original point though, Carlton have almost completely rebuilt the list in 5 years. Looking at them now they are a decent young team with some holes to fix but have a good core.

People projecting a list is well over 5 years away from competing is silly. The amount of turnover each year shows that.

Docherty is a good half back flank, can call him an A grader if you want but he is not someone you build a list around. Carlton had Cripps and only Cripps, they were in no better position than we are now.

If we get it right and nail everything we will be contending in 5 years, if we get it wrong and mess it up we will be a cellar dweller in 5 years. reality is we will probably be somewhere in between those two extremes but will have to wait and see.