Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[hawkman]

79 points in a GF is the stuff dreams a made of when Ross Lyon is your coach. Seeing as this is a HAWTHORN thread, maybe ask Hawthorn fans?

77 is pretty good too. Helps to play a Ross Lyon team if you are only scoring that amount

 

[hawkman]

But what is most concerning is a % of under 85%. I think the Hawks have underperformed this year. A solid backline, and a strong forward line with Lewis, Gunston, Breust and Moore. Obviously the midfield needs an complete overhaul.

I think we have underperformed as well. The midfield has ended up being a lot worse than i thought. In most games they have been uncompetitive for at least a quarter.
Gunston started the season well but inaccurate. Got injured against Richmond and hasn't looked right in the games he has played since

Percentage of 84.8 isn’t horrific. Our next 3 are Adelaide, West Coast and North. Would be hoping it is back above 90 by the end of those

 

[VinnieB]

I think we have underperformed as well. The midfield has ended up being a lot worse than i thought. In most games they have been uncompetitive for at least a quarter.
Gunston started the season well but inaccurate. Got injured against Richmond and hasn't looked right in the games he has played since

Percentage of 84.8 isn’t horrific. Our next 3 are Adelaide, West Coast and North. Would be hoping it is back above 90 by the end of those

Midfield is obviously the big issue.
I thought it was interesting how the Hawks, if we believe the media, were pushing to take GWS' pick in the draft to grab Callaghan. While still early days, he is probably the type of player you need in there. A quicker, running midfielder who can use the ball.

I just wonder if the Hawks have too similar young players in the midfield.
Obviously that can change over a couple of drafts and would think they could go hard for a player like Taranto as well.

 

[QuietB]

Midfield is obviously the big issue.
I thought it was interesting how the Hawks, if we believe the media, were pushing to take GWS' pick in the draft to grab Callaghan. While still early days, he is probably the type of player you need in there. A quicker, running midfielder who can use the ball.

I just wonder if the Hawks have too similar young players in the midfield.
Obviously that can change over a couple of drafts and would think they could go hard for a player like Taranto as well.

Hawks have got two midfield pieces to move forward with - Newcombe who is a ripper and Ward who looks ok but early days. If they can add one genuine jet from this years draft then they will be a long way to where they need to go.

 

[Roddy]

I actually think one major issue with our midfield is that JOM has been a disappointment. We put a lot of hope in him, but he's come up well short. He bobs up and plays the odd really good game but nowhere near often enough. That guy should be a top 10 midfielder in the league. As it stands, he wouldn't even be in the top 50.

 

[Bradkli]

Other than the Wingard trade I don't think the Hawks have put a foot wrong.

Their success with speculative picks is easily the best in the AFL. That means they either have the best recruiting structure, the best development structure and maybe both.

The premise of this thread is ridiculous.

“Other than the Wingard trade I don’t think the hawks have put a foot wrong”…

• the O’Meara trade was on par if not worse then the Wingard trade
• the handling of club legends in Jordan Lewis and Sam Mitchell and the way they were let go..I hope you aren’t one of our supporters who believe it was handled well by the club..look at the current state of our leadership since…Ben mcevoy captain with a rotation of vice captains every 6 weeks…would be bottom 3 in afl..it’s evident on field every week as well.
• Ben Stratton made captain for 2 seasons when he was borderline a best 22 player
• the retirement of Cyril Rioli at just 28- when now know why
• The arrogance of thinking we can turn the likes of Jonothan O’Rourke (traded for pick 19), Jon Patton and Tom Scully into stars because they were high draft picks - our supporters try and counter with “but Scully and Patton only cost us 4th round draft picks”.. go and look what pick in the drafts the likes of James Sicily, Blake Hardwick and Mitch Lewis were..Don’t get me started on Patton’s off-field behaviour..O’Rourke as well
• Giving Tyronne Vickery a 2-year million $$ deal- he played 6 games and retired after 1 season.

Trading Bradley Hill, arguably the best wingman at the time to Fremantle for pick 23… Carlton got 2 x first round draft picks from Adelaide for Bryce Gibbs. GWS got 2 x first round draft picks for Dylan Shiel…Brisbane got 2 x first round draft picks for Dayne Beams…

when we miss the finals next season and in 2024 it will be 6 years since we played in a final and close to a decade since we won a final…

the majority of the above rarely gets bought up because of the amazing success we had from 2012-2015…whilst that period was simply incredible, some of the decisions made by the club, most notably Clarkson since our golden era have been nothing short of diabolical and have set the club back years…Sam Mitchell has one of the hardest jobs in footy..

 

[Red Bull]

“Other than the Wingard trade I don’t think the hawks have put a foot wrong”…

• the O’Meara trade was on par if not worse then the Wingard trade
• the handling of club legends in Jordan Lewis and Sam Mitchell and the way they were let go..I hope you aren’t one of our supporters who believe it was handled well by the club..look at the current state of our leadership since…Ben mcevoy captain with a rotation of vice captains every 6 weeks…would be bottom 3 in afl..it’s evident on field every week as well.
• Ben Stratton made captain for 2 seasons when he was borderline a best 22 player
• the retirement of Cyril Rioli at just 28- when now know why
• The arrogance of thinking we can turn the likes of Jonothan O’Rourke (traded for pick 19), Jon Patton and Tom Scully into stars because they were high draft picks - our supporters try and counter with “but Scully and Patton only cost us 4th round draft picks”.. go and look what pick in the drafts the likes of James Sicily, Blake Hardwick and Mitch Lewis were..Don’t get me started on Patton’s off-field behaviour..O’Rourke as well
• Giving Tyronne Vickery a 2-year million $$ deal- he played 6 games and retired after 1 season.

Trading Bradley Hill, arguably the best wingman at the time to Fremantle for pick 23… Carlton got 2 x first round draft picks from Adelaide for Bryce Gibbs. GWS got 2 x first round draft picks for Dylan Shiel…Brisbane got 2 x first round draft picks for Dayne Beams…

when we miss the finals next season and in 2024 it will be 6 years since we played in a final and close to a decade since we won a final…

the majority of the above rarely gets bought up because of the amazing success we had from 2012-2015…whilst that period was simply incredible, some of the decisions made by the club, most notably Clarkson since our golden era have been nothing short of diabolical and have set the club back years…Sam Mitchell has one of the hardest jobs in footy..

Agreed,
And Mitchell knows the score.
He tried to get the ball rolling during trade week last season without success.
There’s no shortcuts on the journey the hawks face …

 

[Dewyyyyy]

what about:

St Kilda lost by 69 points
Essendon lost by 27 points
Suns lost by 67 points
Dogs lost by 42 points
GWS lost by 22 points

In the end it means absolutely nothing how much you lose by against the top 8 teams.
You seem to make a lot of excuses "..we ran out of legs..." or "...Lewis was out...".

I can only comment on the Collingwood game and we had 65-40 inside 50s. Our forward line just wasn't functioning. But that's 50% more and so maybe we should have won by 10 goals? I'm sure other clubs could say the same.

We were up by 6 goals against Geelong and ran out of legs in the last quarter when they booted 7 goals. We lost against West Coast. We have a very young forward line and a new coach learning a new game style, playing aggressive football. See, every club can find reasons why they lose games.

But what is most concerning is a % of under 85%. I think the Hawks have underperformed this year. A solid backline, and a strong forward line with Lewis, Gunston, Breust and Moore. Obviously the midfield needs an complete overhaul.

Just an fyi, those aren’t excuses they’re reasons. Having injuries is a bit of a cop out comment but mentioning it nonetheless. But running out of legs is just about the reason we’ve lost most games. Apart from the Suns and St Kilda games.

Again inconsistency with a young side

Your forward line? Or our defense?! It is subjective with that.

Collingwood aren’t old nor young. They’re in the middle and it’s why they’ve been so good this year is with a lot of talent being in their prime or some older players still performing.

Hawks & Crows, maybe North too are extremely young. Hawks 2nd youngest in the comp.

Think our main thing has been inconsistent performance. We’ve had a hard fixture till now, only just playing Crows, West Coast and North (again) and finish with two more UTAS games. So it could change who knows.

We’ve struggled with injuries which has sucked but what can you do

And if Sam wanted to win games he’d play Mitchell more in the middle and we’d win more if he had done what Clarko did to an extent, but he backed the kids and gave them big roles which fast tracks their development.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It's Dominic.

The Hawks could lose by 100 and he would make it out to be a good thing

Point, over, your, head.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Midfield is obviously the big issue.
I thought it was interesting how the Hawks, if we believe the media, were pushing to take GWS' pick in the draft to grab Callaghan. While still early days, he is probably the type of player you need in there. A quicker, running midfielder who can use the ball.

I just wonder if the Hawks have too similar young players in the midfield.
Obviously that can change over a couple of drafts and would think they could go hard for a player like Taranto as well.

Think they’re different. Worpel is different to all, Newcombe seems different to the others and so does Ward. In a good way.

Add in two mids this draft and it starts to build big time. Obviously the 2023 draft also.

 

[QuietB]

“Other than the Wingard trade I don’t think the hawks have put a foot wrong”…

• the O’Meara trade was on par if not worse then the Wingard trade
• the handling of club legends in Jordan Lewis and Sam Mitchell and the way they were let go..I hope you aren’t one of our supporters who believe it was handled well by the club..look at the current state of our leadership since…Ben mcevoy captain with a rotation of vice captains every 6 weeks…would be bottom 3 in afl..it’s evident on field every week as well.
• Ben Stratton made captain for 2 seasons when he was borderline a best 22 player
• the retirement of Cyril Rioli at just 28- when now know why
• The arrogance of thinking we can turn the likes of Jonothan O’Rourke (traded for pick 19), Jon Patton and Tom Scully into stars because they were high draft picks - our supporters try and counter with “but Scully and Patton only cost us 4th round draft picks”.. go and look what pick in the drafts the likes of James Sicily, Blake Hardwick and Mitch Lewis were..Don’t get me started on Patton’s off-field behaviour..O’Rourke as well
• Giving Tyronne Vickery a 2-year million $$ deal- he played 6 games and retired after 1 season.

Trading Bradley Hill, arguably the best wingman at the time to Fremantle for pick 23… Carlton got 2 x first round draft picks from Adelaide for Bryce Gibbs. GWS got 2 x first round draft picks for Dylan Shiel…Brisbane got 2 x first round draft picks for Dayne Beams…

when we miss the finals next season and in 2024 it will be 6 years since we played in a final and close to a decade since we won a final…

the majority of the above rarely gets bought up because of the amazing success we had from 2012-2015…whilst that period was simply incredible, some of the decisions made by the club, most notably Clarkson since our golden era have been nothing short of diabolical and have set the club back years…Sam Mitchell has one of the hardest jobs in footy..

1. The O'Meara trade was no where near as bad as the Wingard trade. O'Meara cost pick 10 and future 2nd rounder at a time when Hawthorn were still in contention. In 2016 when Hawthorn got O'Meara they had just finished 3rd on the ladder. They were not thinking rebuild yet and Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis were coming to the end.
2. I don't get the anger at the handling of club legends. Hodge retired. He wasn't pushed, he wasn't told, he chose to retire. Then he chose to go again in Brisbane and he still lives there. He doesn't seem too upset. Mitchell chose to go West Coast to further his coaching ambitions and now he is Hawthorn's senior coach after serving as Clarko's deputy which suggests there is not much bad blood there. Lewis was pissed off he wasn't offered more years and he chose to move as well. He could have stayed and fought for his next contract but he chose to move. He was pedestrian at Melbourne.
3. Ben Stratton as captain is truly bewildering. I have no idea what Clarko was thinking.
4. Cyril's retirement is just sad. But again, that is what Cyril chose.
5. All clubs make shit trades. Hawthorn won 3 more premierships after drafting Mitch Thorp and Beau Dowler with "elite picks in the draft" - it happens. Drafting and trading is not an exact science. All clubs make terrible decisions from time to time.
6. Vickery is the same. It was a shit decision but the logic was Clarko wanted to replace Hale. No one wanted Hale either when Hawthorn got him.
7. I do not know for sure - but I would suspect Brad Hill signed a new deal at the start of the three peat with the proviso he could go where he wants after that contract. If that is what he negotiated then fair enough. And he went to play with his brother (which didn't last that long but whatever).

Clarko was entitled to have another crack in 2016, 2017, 2018 and even 2019. Hawthorn finished 4th on the ladder in 2018 - you don't just blow up a triple premiership side that just finished 4th?

Richmond have not blown their team up and they are not going to win another one. Geelong still have not blow their team up and they are unlikely to win again. When you are in contention you take what you can get player wise to replace what you are losing - and remember you have nothing to work with picks wise if you finish top 4 - and you have a crack.

Did it work for Clarko - No.

Did Roughead, Burgoyne, Rioli, Stratton, Gunston, Bruest, Smith, Shiels, McEvoy and others deserve another crack - yes.

Were they up to it without Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Lake, Gibson and others - no.

But hindsight is very easy.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

1. The O'Meara trade was no where near as bad as the Wingard trade. O'Meara cost pick 10 and future 2nd rounder at a time when Hawthorn were still in contention. In 2016 when Hawthorn got O'Meara they had just finished 3rd on the ladder. They were not thinking rebuild yet and Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis were coming to the end.
2. I don't get the anger at the handling of club legends. Hodge retired. He wasn't pushed, he wasn't told, he chose to retire. Then he chose to go again in Brisbane and he still lives there. He doesn't seem too upset. Mitchell chose to go West Coast to further his coaching ambitions and now he is Hawthorn's senior coach after serving as Clarko's deputy which suggests there is not much bad blood there. Lewis was pissed off he wasn't offered more years and he chose to move as well. He could have stayed and fought for his next contract but he chose to move. He was pedestrian at Melbourne.
3. Ben Stratton as captain is truly bewildering. I have no idea what Clarko was thinking.
4. Cyril's retirement is just sad. But again, that is what Cyril chose.
5. All clubs make s**t trades. Hawthorn won 3 more premierships after drafting Mitch Thorp and Beau Dowler with "elite picks in the draft" - it happens. Drafting and trading is not an exact science. All clubs make terrible decisions from time to time.
6. Vickery is the same. It was a s**t decision but the logic was Clarko wanted to replace Hale. No one wanted Hale either when Hawthorn got him.
7. I do not know for sure - but I would suspect Brad Hill signed a new deal at the start of the three peat with the proviso he could go where he wants after that contract. If that is what he negotiated then fair enough. And he went to play with his brother (which didn't last that long but whatever).

Clarko was entitled to have another crack in 2016, 2017, 2018 and even 2019. Hawthorn finished 4th on the ladder in 2018 - you don't just blow up a triple premiership side that just finished 4th?

Richmond have not blown their team up and they are not going to win another one. Geelong still have not blow their team up and they are unlikely to win again. When you are in contention you take what you can get player wise to replace what you are losing - and remember you have nothing to work with picks wise if you finish top 4 - and you have a crack.

Did it work for Clarko - No.

Did Roughead, Burgoyne, Rioli, Stratton, Gunston, Bruest, Smith, Shiels, McEvoy and others deserve another crack - yes.

Were they up to it without Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Lake, Gibson and others - no.

But hindsight is very easy.

To be fair. We weren’t gonna win again after 2018. Mitchell carried that side.

 

[QuietB]

To be fair. We weren’t gonna win again after 2018. Mitchell carried that side.

In hindsight we were not going to win again after 2015.

But the remaining players were still entitled to have a crack.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

In hindsight we were not going to win again after 2015.

But the remaining players were still entitled to have a crack.

It went down hill when roughy got cancer. We would’ve made the GF and been a chance if not imho.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

 

[QuietB]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

Pretty much - young team, competitive but inconsistent.

There are green shoots everywhere. Other than Bruest and Sicily the kids will dominate the B&F voting. But they are still kids.

It is exciting. I actually enjoy watching young teams develop as long as they show something and I think this group is showing a bit which is awesome.

 

[hawkman]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

Expected a little more. Collapses from the midfield have been costly though. Generally happy with how the forward and backline are going but we are bottom 3 in the midfield

 

[Bradkli]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

I had us finishing bottom 4 this year and next.. we currently sit 4-11 but could easily be 6-9 having had a brutal fixture...We have beaten Geelong and Brisbane, Lost to Carlton by 1, Melbourne by 10..we've also had some horrendous performances against lesser sides, which is expected with a new coach, game plan and the introduction of a lot of new players..We will finish the season with 6 or 7 wins which was what I had us pencilled in pre-season...those thinking we had a chance of making the finals this year and even next are dreaming. We are a long way off it..

Lewis and Newcombe as you mentioned have been sensational. Connor Macdonald and Sam Butler look like good future prospects..unfortunately Josh Ward , our first pick in the draft last season as missed a lot of footy due to concussion, but looks like a future gun.. Grainger-Barrass has had a awful development season, but will hopefully come good... Our list still has massive holes to be filled over the next 2-3 years... we need to nail our top 5 pick this year and next and hope to bring in a few decent free agents like Karl Amon.

 

[VinnieB]

Just an fyi, those aren’t excuses they’re reasons. Having injuries is a bit of a cop out comment but mentioning it nonetheless. But running out of legs is just about the reason we’ve lost most games. Apart from the Suns and St Kilda games.

Again inconsistency with a young side

Your forward line? Or our defense?! It is subjective with that.

Collingwood aren’t old nor young. They’re in the middle and it’s why they’ve been so good this year is with a lot of talent being in their prime or some older players still performing.

Hawks & Crows, maybe North too are extremely young. Hawks 2nd youngest in the comp.

Think our main thing has been inconsistent performance. We’ve had a hard fixture till now, only just playing Crows, West Coast and North (again) and finish with two more UTAS games. So it could change who knows.

We’ve struggled with injuries which has sucked but what can you do

And if Sam wanted to win games he’d play Mitchell more in the middle and we’d win more if he had done what Clarko did to an extent, but he backed the kids and gave them big roles which fast tracks their development.

"..those aren't excuses they're reasons".
"..running out of legs is just about the reason we've lost most games"
"we've struggled with injuries".

Am I reading this correctly??? Sure, no excuses. Just reasons. haha!

 

[Dewyyyyy]

"..those aren't excuses they're reasons".
"..running out of legs is just about the reason we've lost most games"
"we've struggled with injuries".

Am I reading this correctly??? Sure, no excuses. Just reasons. haha!

Running out of legs is a reason mate. We were better for a lot of the Sydney game but due to our inexperience and inability to play our game plan for four quarters we ran out of legs and fell off.

Struggling with injuries is a slight cop out but for a team down the bottom highly affected who normally doesn’t have great depth to rely on them constantly is hard.

 

[VinnieB]

Running out of legs is a reason mate. We were better for a lot of the Sydney game but due to our inexperience and inability to play our game plan for four quarters we ran out of legs and fell off.

Struggling with injuries is a slight cop out but for a team down the bottom highly affected who normally doesn’t have great depth to rely on them constantly is hard.

ok. Hawthorn are the only team that 'run out of legs'.
However, other games you 'found your legs' coming back in the 2nd half to be competitive on the scoreboard.
So, you ran out of legs against Sydney, but you came charging home against Carlton?? You ran out of legs against Essendon? Aren't they a young side? You seemed to play the game out well against Lions after being 20 points down late in the 3rd.

All clubs can keep finding excuses....errr I mean reasons.

 

[hawkman]

ok. Hawthorn are the only team that 'run out of legs'.
However, other games you 'found your legs' coming back in the 2nd half to be competitive on the scoreboard.
So, you ran out of legs against Sydney, but you came charging home against Carlton?? You ran out of legs against Essendon? Aren't they a young side? You seemed to play the game out well against Lions after being 20 points down late in the 3rd.

All clubs can keep finding excuses....errr I mean reasons.

Think one of the major issues there are the lack of fitness in our rucks. Max Lynch struggled to run out games as a solo ruck, Ladhams and Draper completely dominated the last quarter of those games

 

[The 747]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

Won 7 games last season. Look to be tracking a little worse.

Have good forwards and backs, have no mids - as we knew last year.

 

[Gavin Excell]

77 is pretty good too. Helps to play a Ross Lyon team if you are only scoring that amount

Freomaniac alert

 

[HairyO]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

I thought 12th to 14th if we were trying. 15th or 16th maybe Mitchell is not so keen to win for a better draft pick.

We play our mids all over the ground. Mitchell and JOM often spend little time in the middle and Nash seems to be thrown around constantly.

We have also had Frost and Sicily playing forward.

We have 3 very winable games coming up. If we get all 3 we probably do finish in 14th.

If we lose after beating Brisbane I would question what games Mitchell is playing.