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Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

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Scotland said:
Sicily is an awful key defender. Kennedy kicked 7 on Tarrant yesterday. Would've kicked 17 on Sicily in the same circumstances.

He's a better player not needing to fight up a couple of divisions. Lake was more attacking at the Bulldogs. Once he joined Hawthorn and Gibson didn't have to do what Sicily is doing now they were a much better side.
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Frawley usually keeps Kennedy quiet
 
Scotland said:
Good for Frawley, not the point I was making.
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Then your point wasn't a point as Sicily doesn't get the match up on someone like Kennedy.
 

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Scotland said:
Sicily is an awful key defender. Kennedy kicked 7 on Tarrant yesterday. Would've kicked 17 on Sicily in the same circumstances.

He's a better player not needing to fight up a couple of divisions. Lake was more attacking at the Bulldogs. Once he joined Hawthorn and Gibson didn't have to do what Sicily is doing now they were a much better side.
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I always enjoy your insights on Hawthorn.


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Scotland said:
Then he's not a key defender. Against West Coast he didn't play on Kennedy or Darling.
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So? Would that mean that Rance isn't if Richmond tried to free him up by playing him on someone else?
Frawley gets Kennedy, we rotated a few on Darling, and people change assignments in transition all the time.
 
cryptor said:
James Sicily is playing key back alongside Frawley. He plays a very similar role to what Lake did with his ability to intercept mark just about everything that comes in high, but overall a more complete player with a deadly, penetrating kick and athleticism to push higher up the ground. He even has Lake’s short fuse and propensity for brain fades.
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Sicily is not a player who can do jobs on guys like Kennedy, Hawkins, Cameron etc.

Frawley is the only good proper key-defender on your list, and he turns 31 in a couple of months.
 
Badesumofu said:
The problem with the approach of going over the team sheets and looking at how many players from each side will improve or go backwards and then extrapolate about whether each team will improve or not the following year is that actual footy isn’t SuperCoach. It’s a garbage approach because AFL teams aren’t just a collection of individuals.

Teams go up and down depending on all sorts of factors that are largely unrelated to where in their development curve individual players are. The last 10 years re littered with examples of this where a team goes from bottom 4 to top 8 because they just ‘click’. Of course there’s a lot more to it than just clicking but we don’t see a lot of that stuff that happens behind the scenes. Similarly good teams can seem to go off cliffs without significant personnel changes depending on how well any number of things are functioning at the club.
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I have never played Supercoach.


I do agree on your clicking and cliffs though analogies though. Crows, Cats and Hawks are all on the edge of a cliff right now. I am just not sure how long before each topples off and how high the cliff is. I suspect that the height is less for both the Hawks and Cats.

I believe that Lions while having clicked this year are actually just more than a one year wonder and this is being achieved on doing many things right over recent years after a sustained period of doing many things wrong. Like most for teams in recent times this year for them is based on a mixture of drafting, trading and offield matters. And all these things are not just from clicking this year.

The Lions now have a quality list and are managing it in a quality way. One which I believe still has very good upside as they have an excellent band of young players mixed in with some more mature heads. And unlike the GWS they have the advantage of a club environment.
 

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Scotland said:
Then he's not a key defender. Against West Coast he didn't play on Kennedy or Darling.
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Thats right he isn't, a lot of supporters don't get why we play him as one at times when he is one of the best interceptors in the game and should be playing that role not lockdown. Is only 187 cms. He did well yesterday for example in that role but we lost a lot of drive from him and could have saved a few goals if we used him properly.
 
This thread is going to be hilariously entertaining in October. The best is yet to come. :)
 
GPannis said:
From what I saw it was mostly Frawley. When Sicily went to Hawkins, Hawkins actually started taking marks and preventing Sicily from playing loose man, which is clearly his main role, but you don't want to admit it for some reason.
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No Frawley was on Ratogalea. Sicily played key defender, he gets freed up when O'Brien plays back. The Sicily loose man myth is right up there with Josh Gibson wasn't a key defender, just rubbish. Under sized yes, but both played key defender.


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TallyHawk said:
No Frawley was on Ratogalea. Sicily played key defender, he gets freed up when O'Brien plays back. The Sicily loose man myth is right up there with Josh Gibson wasn't a key defender, just rubbish. Under sized yes, but both played key defender.
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Alright, now I'm 100% sure you're lying. I watched that game live can very clearly recall several aerial contests between Hawkins and Frawley, most of which were won by the latter.

It's pretty sad when you're so determined to make your point that you have to lie about your best defender going to Geelong's worst forward for most of the game. I'd move on if I were you.
 
Richo83 said:
Eh, I'm not seeing what Hawthorn fans are seeing. A midfield of O'Meara, Mitchell, Shiels and... a bunch of outside runners still doesn't scare many teams in the top four.
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It’s like Hawthorn haven’t defeated Cats, Pies or Giants and didn’t lose to Eagles by a kick and Lions due to conversion....without Mitchell.

I mean, if that’s the reality you live in your post makes complete sense, but otherwise it just reads as silly, considering the actual formline against the sides who have been in the top 4 for the majority of the year with O’meara and a 20yr old as the key mids.
 

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GPannis said:
Sicily is not a player who can do jobs on guys like Kennedy, Hawkins, Cameron etc.

Frawley is the only good proper key-defender on your list, and he turns 31 in a couple of months.
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He did a job on Hawkins last week. Hawkins kicked two goals. One opportunistic one where he was in the ruck against McEvoy, and the other from a set shot that came from marking on the lead a low, quick entry that no defender could've been expected to stop. (And I saw your other post. You are wrong. Sicily played on Hawkins for the majority of the day.)

He's played on plenty of bigger key forwards all year and held up very well. You made an assumption and you were wrong.
 
cryptor said:
He did a job on Hawkins last week. Hawkins kicked two goals. One opportunistic one where he was in the ruck against McEvoy, and the other from a set shot that came from marking on the lead a low, quick entry that no defender could've been expected to stop. (And I saw your other post. You are wrong. Sicily played on Hawkins for the majority of the day.)

He's played on plenty of bigger key forwards all year and held up very well. You made an assumption and you were wrong.
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Mindlessly claiming "wrong" isn't going to convince anyone. I have a clear memory of the game, and claiming the contrary won't change that.
 
cryptor said:
He did a job on Hawkins last week. Hawkins kicked two goals. One opportunistic one where he was in the ruck against McEvoy, and the other from a set shot that came from marking on the lead a low, quick entry that no defender could've been expected to stop. (And I saw your other post. You are wrong. Sicily played on Hawkins for the majority of the day.)

He's played on plenty of bigger key forwards all year and held up very well. You made an assumption and you were wrong.
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Did very well on T Lynch in the Tigers game. One out.
 
GPannis said:
Mindlessly claiming "wrong" isn't going to convince anyone. I have a clear memory of the game, and claiming the contrary won't change that.
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Oh please. You're being told by multiple people who follow the team in question. I was at the game live, have watched a replay, and have watched a few highlights packages from this game.

Matchcentre

www.fanfooty.com.au
Hover over the icon next to Sicily's name. It even says he was on Hawkins.
 
cryptor said:
Oh please. You're being told by multiple people
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2
who follow the team in question.
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Who are trying to prove that Sicily, a 187cm player, can play on big, powerful 195+cm key-forwards on a consistent basis. Naturally, being supporters of the club, you're inclined to believe the more favorable outlook.

It's a moot point either way, random match highlights don't prove anything in the context of a whole game. I know what I saw and nothing you say is going to change that.
 
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