Carlton 1979-82; Why don't we rate them?

[JackFlash]

That argument doesn't really stack up though when you consider the Melbourne and Brisbane are both horseshit now and their eras are rated very highly.

Carlton were always this arrogant club, above everyone else. They certainly had that air of arrogance about them that both Melbourne and Brisbane have never had, the Blues since the era of Barassi were the most successful club for 30 years winning 8 flags in 27 years, playing in 12 grand Finals from 1968 -1995. The Elliott era instilled a further dislike for Carlton, there was always something dodgy about them, always a question mark. They had great teams from 68-72 and again from 79-82, two great eras that should be recognised more than they are, but i doubt they ever will.

 

[Blue Heart]

Because it was pre-salary cap era and they bought all the best available players. Or so the story goes.

Sorry but you are well off the mark here ... however that's what happens when you repeat ill informed hearsay and opinion paraded as fact, about flags and eras that occurred before you were born.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Sorry but you are well off the mark here ... however that's what happens when you repeat ill informed hearsay and opinion paraded as fact, about flags and eras that occurred before you were born.

You are so right BH. The era from 79-82 saw so many home grown champions at Carlton. North were the biggest spenders. Carlton 70-82 are judged on spending later in the 80s.

 

[FootyGeek]

In 1981 the Blues picked up a guy called Ken Hunter from WA who had broken his jaw three times before the age of 21.

He turned out to be one of the greatest players in Carlton's history.

This was all about luck/good management/fairies whatever you want to call it, but it was not purely about cheque book footy.

 

[South of the Yarra]

In 1981 the Blues picked up a guy called Ken Hunter from WA who had broken his jaw three times before the age of 21.

He turned out to be one of the greatest players in Carlton's history.

This was all about luck/good management/fairies whatever you want to call it, but it was not purely about cheque book footy.

Absolute superstar. Such courageous marking.

 

[La Dispute]

Shit list, overpaying dud players, no genuine KPP whatsoever, lots of showboaters, Daisy Thomas, Liam Jones, Steven Trigg, Patrick Cripps our only good young player, Chris Judd just retired ;(, Andy Carrazzo retired, Chris Yarran doesn't like us anymore, Lachie Henderson and the rest of his family don't like us, lots of talented forwards have left us recently, Robbie Warnock, Lawrence Angwin and Carl Norman, Kouta's knee, Salary cap breaches, Brendan Fevola left, SouvlakiHut, Sam Jacobs is an A-Grade ruckman, Shaun Grigg is a B-Grade midfielder (an upgrade from D-Grade), Levi Casboult being handcuffed to a senior player and forced against his will to drink, We passed on Daniel Talia and Nathan Fyfe to draft Kane Lucas, Peter Riccardi's kick after the siren in 2002, Ben Dixon's kick after the siren in 2001, Brock McLean, Liam Jones, Bryce Gibbs ahead of Selwood, The light blue guernsey, Mick Malthouse, global warming, Liam Jones, Tony Liberatore and tanking, Josh Bootsma, Adam Goodes wanted to spear our supporters, we came last again, Liam Jones, Liam Jones

 

[Doss]

Three flags in four seasons speaks for itself. Outstanding side.

Essendon's greatest era, 1946-51, stop possibly doesn't quite get the recognition it should from some of our supporters. If you want to use a bit of poetic licence, you can even extend that to 1942-51. Four flags, eight grand finals and a preliminary final in a decade is outstanding.

Admittedly mitigated somewhat by the weakening of football generally by the war.

 

[FootyGeek]

Three flags in four seasons speaks for itself. Outstanding side.

Essendon's greatest era, 1946-51, stop possibly doesn't quite get the recognition it should from some of our supporters. If you want to use a bit of poetic licence, you can even extend that to 1942-51. Four flags, eight grand finals and a preliminary final in a decade is outstanding.

Admittedly mitigated somewhat by the weakening of football generally by the war.

Great era no doubt, but the same reasons I don't talk up too much the 14-15 and the 45 and 47 sides. They were great but they were heavily influenced by the wars.

Great sides but the war had a massive effect, for sure it was across the board and fairly equal across the sides but the war years and shortly after were very different times for the VFL comp.

 

[Gone Critical]

That was the rumour and there were plenty of shady des with other players. They bought so many players.

What shady deals? North used the short lived 10 year rule to great effect and with a bit of foresight. Netted them good players and success for the 1st time in their history. What were the shady things?

 

[South of the Yarra]

What shady deals? North used the short lived 10 year rule to great effect and with a bit of foresight. Netted them good players and success for the 1st time in their history. What were the shady things?

Paper bag payments by the dozen. Do you think those 10 year players walked without encouragement. The amount of cash thrown around pre deals by the Kangas was ridiculous.

 

[South of the Yarra]

What shady deals? North used the short lived 10 year rule to great effect and with a bit of foresight. Netted them good players and success for the 1st time in their history. What were the shady things?

Look up the previous pages of this thread on John Rantall's dealings and paper bags. Bob Ansett was another John Elliott.

 

[jjsmitty8]

Shit list, overpaying dud players, no genuine KPP whatsoever, lots of showboaters, Daisy Thomas, Liam Jones, Steven Trigg, Patrick Cripps our only good young player, Chris Judd just retired ;(, Andy Carrazzo retired, Chris Yarran doesn't like us anymore, Lachie Henderson and the rest of his family don't like us, lots of talented forwards have left us recently, Robbie Warnock, Lawrence Angwin and Carl Norman, Kouta's knee, Salary cap breaches, Brendan Fevola left, SouvlakiHut, Sam Jacobs is an A-Grade ruckman, Shaun Grigg is a B-Grade midfielder (an upgrade from D-Grade), Levi Casboult being handcuffed to a senior player and forced against his will to drink, We passed on Daniel Talia and Nathan Fyfe to draft Kane Lucas, Peter Riccardi's kick after the siren in 2002, Ben Dixon's kick after the siren in 2001, Brock McLean, Liam Jones, Bryce Gibbs ahead of Selwood, The light blue guernsey, Mick Malthouse, global warming, Liam Jones, Tony Liberatore and tanking, Josh Bootsma, Adam Goodes wanted to spear our supporters, we came last again, Liam Jones, Liam Jones

You forgot the hovercraft. Nonetheless, you win this thread.

 

[Gone Critical]

David Parkin always says this too.

However I'd rather bottle the team I saw in the 79 and 82 era as I rated the contenders harder to beat of those times. They lost more games than 95 model that did better on stats but for sheer talent and power to excite they had contenders to the crown that was no shame to drop a few games to in those years. I know I will never see it that good again but still enjoy what can be achieved in recent eras of football where the landscape does not allow a number of super sides to exists at same time. The talent is spread more thin over more clubs. Someone still has to win a flag each year though but you will never see the number of genuine stars in the one team as watching a 1984 Essendon run over the top of a quality Hawks in that grand final or the Carlton 1982 team overcome a raging favourite in Richmond that year. Those grand finals the most epic I seen in terms of heavyweights playing off for a title that was the hardest to win. You had to play out of your skin to beat another champion team. Kudos to Hawks for rising off the mat and making 7 grand finals in a row in those 80's. It is always funny to me they are talked about as the dominant side of 80's however give me the Essendon and Carlton teams over them at their best.
I think in 8 finals in the 80's we beat Hawks 5 times to their 3.
Essendon also won 2 grand finals in a row over the Hawks.
It was the heavyweight division in those times for mine to win a flag.
North and Tigers also had some serious talent on their list to be contenders around 1982 times. I don't remember a more brilliant bunch of 4 or 5 sides existing in such a small window of time. To win a flag then seemed harder in terms of how good you had to be to win against the top few teams. I have a feeling at one stage North had 4 Brownlow Medallists on their list in early 80's but never won a flag in that time. There was no salary cap and Hawks, Carlton, North and Essendon seem to attract most of the quality players from interstate. Buckenara, Ken Judge, the Krakouer brothers, Kenny Hunter, Peter Bosustow and Leon Baker that were star players in early 80s that joined some of these teams that already were high quality with 5 or 6 champs already in a strong team. God help the poor Melbourne teams with only Robbie Flower as one champ or St.Kilda with Trevor Barker. That all changed in late 80's when salary caps and drafts started up. Slowly things evened out and you won't ever get to see that many champs be assembled in one team.

Parko maybe a little biased here

Think you are also and have used a bit of licence to juggle history. Carlton 79-82 were a great side and I would have them as the 2nd best Blues side I have seen. Carlton 68-72 played against another super side in the Tigers and had a really strong but ill fated Collingwood to beat also. The Carlton- Richmond rivalry matched the Hawks-Ess of the 80's.

In contrast to what you write I believe the Blues 79-82 didn't have any great rival. The Hawks and Essendon of the 80's were yet to arrive. Richmond was a good but not great team. Collingwood who played off in 3 of the 4 GFs of the era were average but very well coached and were Carlton's biggest rival of those years, not the teams you mentioned. Geelongwere therabouts. North were well on the slide by 79.

Carlton were a really good side but for me don't come to the level of of recent Lions, cats or Hawks. Have them just below the Tigers/ Blues of 67-74. I saw all these teams play.

 

[footyfan1978]

Think you are also and have used a bit of licence to juggle history.

You are wrong. I'm telling it from watching the games in those times.

Carlton 79-82 were a great side and I would have them as the 2nd best Blues side I have seen. Carlton 68-72 played against another super side in the Tigers and had a really strong but ill fated Collingwood to beat also.

I can only comment on the sides of seasons I watched. Clearly 1968 to 72 era was well before my time. I can only go by the Carlton sides I seen in person and on tv.

In contrast to what you write I believe the Blues 79-82 didn't have any great rival.

I don't recall saying they had one specific rival so think this is where you are confused about this juggling history perception of yours.
I was simply pointing out in that period I felt the top teams had more talent in them than should be expected and the lists of Carlton, Hawks, North and Tigers in particular were all super quality. One can only win the flag though. This is why I rate this the best Carlton I have seen in my time as I really rated all of those clubs for talent in that period.

Richmond was a good but not great team.

Beg to differ. They had a Jimmy Jess, Michael Roach, Emmet Dunne and David Cloke as their key position players. Had a top notch ruck in Mark Lee and excellent midfield led by Dale Weightman and Raines. Probably had the best small forward ever in Kevin Bartlett kick amazing goals in 1980 grand final. By 82 he was on the slide but the marvellous Maurice Rioli was part of their 82 side. They were a seriously good side. We had to play well to really beat them. If we slipped up at all they would have taken the title.

Collingwood who played off in 3 of the 4 GFs of the era were average but very well coached and were Carlton's biggest rival of those years, not the teams you mentioned.

I agree Collingwood were nothing special. They certainly were not in the top 4 or 5 sides in talent on list but they did very well to make quite a few grand finals then and testament to the excellent coaching of Tom Hafey. They were a well drilled team. Some of the other teams with more talent tended to flirt with their form a bit more.
But I never saw them as a team to beat. It was more a case of amazing they even challenged us. Great effort as they simply did not have the class of our sides.
Richmond were more of a threat in reality. They won the 1980 flag, also beat us that year in a final and also in 1982 beat us in a final. We had to turn that on it's head on grand final day. I was more excited and nervous for the 82 grand final than 79 and 81. I was super confident we would down Collingwood but the 82 grand final was quietly confident but knew Richmond had a midfield to come close to us and a taller team around the ground so they were a genuine threat. They had to be respected as they had serious talent too. It was my favourite grand final to watch as they had won the 1980 flag in a year I felt we were slightly off and now two years later we had a chance to rectify missing a flag between the Jezza and Parkin years.

Our 1995 flag side was more ruthless on stats side of things but did not feel the other sides near top of ladder were of same quality as the finals sides around 79 to 82. I felt we dominated but overall talent not the same power the earlier premierships sides could do.

Of the more recent eras Geelong have impressed me but Lions for quality were superior to Hawks now and an edge on the Cats best. I reckon the Lions of the early 2000's would have given Carlton's sides of early 80's or Essendon 84 and 85 sides a good game. Probably because Lions benefited from absorbing many Fitzroy players so had a jump on list talent that almost impossible for other clubs to get in draft and salary cap eras.

Anyway, mate it is all just opinion but that is the way I see it.

 

[Severe]

Shit list, overpaying dud players, no genuine KPP whatsoever, lots of showboaters, Daisy Thomas, Liam Jones, Steven Trigg, Patrick Cripps our only good young player, Chris Judd just retired ;(, Andy Carrazzo retired, Chris Yarran doesn't like us anymore, Lachie Henderson and the rest of his family don't like us, lots of talented forwards have left us recently, Robbie Warnock, Lawrence Angwin and Carl Norman, Kouta's knee, Salary cap breaches, Brendan Fevola left, SouvlakiHut, Sam Jacobs is an A-Grade ruckman, Shaun Grigg is a B-Grade midfielder (an upgrade from D-Grade), Levi Casboult being handcuffed to a senior player and forced against his will to drink, We passed on Daniel Talia and Nathan Fyfe to draft Kane Lucas, Peter Riccardi's kick after the siren in 2002, Ben Dixon's kick after the siren in 2001, Brock McLean, Liam Jones, Bryce Gibbs ahead of Selwood, The light blue guernsey, Mick Malthouse, global warming, Liam Jones, Tony Liberatore and tanking, Josh Bootsma, Adam Goodes wanted to spear our supporters, we came last again, Liam Jones, Liam Jones

You mentioned 'L Jizz' more than once.

 

[SBYM]

In 1981 the Blues picked up a guy called Ken Hunter from WA who had broken his jaw three times before the age of 21.

He turned out to be one of the greatest players in Carlton's history.

This was all about luck/good management/fairies whatever you want to call it, but it was not purely about cheque book footy.

As a kid, I used to sit in the VFL members at Waverley with the lady that introduced me to the Baggers. She was my new best mate's mum...I'd just moved down from QLD...

Anyways, they had these little stall section thingys up on the second level, and we always sat in No. 9 because of Ken Hunter.

 

[SBYM]

Admittedly mitigated somewhat by the weakening of football generally by the war.

You lot and your excuses...

There was a war. Wally thought he could get around him. Reidy sent a letter.

When will it end?

 

[SBYM]

Could not be more clearly spelled out in the OP...

 

[Ron The Bear]

Carlton's reserves teams from that period always boasted players who made you think "Why can't he get a game?". Tremendous depth. They were the first team I grew to fear as an opposition supporter, and their theme song was the sound of doom.

 

[Doss]

Could not be more clearly spelled out in the OP...

Okay, people really need to take note of this.

Read the OP. This thread has nothing to do with Carlton's present problems. It is a thread about the 1979-82 Carlton side.

And in fact, thread title edited to make this even more obvious.

No more snipes about present-day Carlton, it's a different topic altogether.

 

[SBYM]

No more snipes about present-day Carlton

I like your optimism!!!

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't recall saying they had one specific rival so think this is where you are confused about this juggling history perception of yours.
I was simply pointing out in that period I felt the top teams had more talent in them than should be expected and the lists of Carlton, Hawks, North and Tigers in particular were all super quality. One can only win the flag though. This is why I rate this the best Carlton I have seen in my time as I really rated all of those clubs for talent in that period.



Anyway, mate it is all just opinion but that is the way I see it.

Again I would look at it differently. In the period 79-82 I don't believe Hawks and North were of super quality. Hawks were between teams almost, after the success around 76-78 the had down years and rose again in 83. They only made one finals series in the years in question and only won 1 final game. They were not a champion rival for Carlton 79-82. North likewise had dropped a bit from their great days. They did challenge a bit in 79 but after that were either near the bottom of the 5 or missing. Didn't challenge strongly for a flag through these years. Tigers as I mentioned were a good side through this era not a great one. Great in the current conversation are Blues 79-82 or Hawks 83 on even Bombers 84-85. Richmond wasn't in that class.

what I am saying there were not two all time great sides going head to head in Carlton's years 79-82. There was no Blues- Tigers 67-74, Hawks-Geel 07-13 or even Hawks-North 75-78. Probably a bit like Lions 01-04 there was no other great side attached to their run.

 

[SBYM]

and their theme song was the sound of doom.

Those opening notes still strike fear into the heart of most footy fans, they just don't like to admit it...

 

[Jesse Custer]

Yes then Collingwood going through a Home and Away season undefeated is even more impressive. Thanks for confirming.

Yes in 1929. 18 home and away games. Congrats you must be so proud. Hope you bought your dvd.

 

[Gone Critical]

That was the rumour and there were plenty of shady des with other players. They bought so many players.

Paper bag payments by the dozen. Do you think those 10 year players walked without encouragement. The amount of cash thrown around pre deals by the Kangas was ridiculous.

Look up the previous pages of this thread on John Rantall's dealings and paper bags. Bob Ansett was another John Elliott.

You are claiming shady deals and underhand payments. I don't have any knowledge of North bending or breaking any rules through this era.

Of course Davis, Wade and Rantall were encouraged by money. Apparently $10000 to sign on then $5000 a year. The 10 year rule lasted a very short time and was bought in because of concerns re restraint of trade. Our first free agency if you like. North used the rule well. A bag of money dangled in front of a player at his dining room table reflected the method of the time. Today's FA has a manager who dangles a big legal contract. Same same but different. This wasn't shady.

NM had been kicked around the bottom of the ladder forever as the 70's started. The only team never to have won a flag at that point. Aylett and Mantello got active, worked hard, and were innovative. Bob Ansett wasn't even involved. Aylett went on to head the VFL . He was no shonk and NM were legitimate.