Carlton 1979-82; Why don't we rate them?

[Shane Hird]

Not quite, I was there, it was a cracking game of football between two brilliant teams.
The WAFL was very strong in those days.

Great day for a Tiger fans it sounds ..

 

[gavaniacono]

Yeah..but again that day we had no Harvey, Watson, Daisy Williams Vanders and Baker and a young Chris Daniher playing his very first game as well.


Sheedy actually got resigned for two years a week after that game.

At the time it was said Sheedy was spending way too much time doing speeches and events and lost his attention with the players.

Sheedy's decision to trade popular clubmen like Steve Carey really put off the players too and many lost respect for the coach.

It wasn't until 89 when he got focused again and had one last chance to snag another flag ..( Watson returned to win a BnF )

1990 gf we looked old and clunky. Pies out worked us and ended the era.

Hawthorn were lucky in a lot of finals 86 onwards. Very lucky things went their way. But like a bunch of teams around the time they were a quality side.

But HFC coming back with much older players in 91 to win a flag was pretty impressive .

Yeah..but again that day we had no Harvey, Watson, Daisy Williams Vanders and Baker and a young Chris Daniher playing his very first game as well.


Sheedy actually got resigned for two years a week after that game.

At the time it was said Sheedy was spending way too much time doing speeches and events and lost his attention with the players.

Sheedy's decision to trade popular clubmen like Steve Carey really put off the players too and many lost respect for the coach.

It wasn't until 89 when he got focused again and had one last chance to snag another flag ..( Watson returned to win a BnF )

1990 gf we looked old and clunky. Pies out worked us and ended the era.

Hawthorn were lucky in a lot of finals 86 onwards. Very lucky things went their way. But like a bunch of teams around the time they were a quality side.

But HFC coming back with much older players in 91 to win a flag was pretty impressive .

1991 BOG 25 year old Paul Dear.

 

[gavaniacono]

This thread is fine sorter of (old) men and (naive) boys.

 

[HBF]

I saw every one of Kenny Hunter's first 99 games with Claremont. What a legend. Early on he was an incredible high marking defender playing as a center half back. Being only about 6 feet tall and slight of build, that was quite an achievement. As gutsy as they come and still one of my all time favs. Although not as big, he moved in a similar way to Fyfe, albeit having an awkward left foot kicking action.

The Fyfe comparison is a good one.
Hunter early in his career was a terrific defender, and then played the '87 GF as a forward next to Kernahan.

 

[South of the Yarra]

This thread is fine sorter of (old) men and (naive) boys.

I am one of the old men lol.

 

[gavaniacono]

I am one of the old men lol.

Likewise

 

[Shane Hird]

I was 14 in 84'..I remember that last qrt like it was yesterday. That's what premierships do to the footy soul.

 

[Shane Hird]

1991 BOG 25 year old Paul Dear.

twas a slaughter in the guts that day

 

[JeffDunne]

Who doesn't rate them?

There were some great teams over the 70's & 80's. Carlton were a great team then but they weren't the greatest of the era.

If that means they aren't rated then we're living in strange world.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Who doesn't rate them?

There were some great teams over the 70's & 80's. Carlton were a great team then but they weren't the greatest of the era.

If that means they aren't rated then we're living in strange world.

JD I don't think a lot of the younger generation rate them at all. Many would not even know they had won 3 flags in 4 years.

 

[JeffDunne]

JD I don't think a lot of the younger generation rate them at all. Many would not even know they had won 3 flags in 4 years.

I probably remember them more than most due to the number of ex-Carlton greats that retired via Moorabbin.

And people wonder why I hate Carlton.

 

[Gone Critical]

Incorrect. Quite clearly I was focussing the example of how good that group of players was in context of the quality of teams around at that time. The list of players I gave was of 1982 to highlight one of those four years where I felt it was an awesome level of football these teams could play at.


No, you are making your view that you place no context of what teams were around at the time to beat. It is dismissive of other teams around. I accept that is your way of thinking but I don't buy it myself. It is interesting for me to understand that lack of real context put into rating teams some do. I on the other hand, do actually consider what premierships teams had to beat around them and more importantly having watched the seasons over time I do consider this the highest quality season I seen in terms of how talented the best four were. I've seen seasons where I felt there were only one quality side. Some years two, sometimes three and even a few years I felt no side has been outstanding but still someone has to win the premiership and be the best of a season.
.

I am Considering the teams around 79-82 but I am considering them and the list of players you present in the contest of 79-82 as being of lesser quality than you. You seem to be implying because some of these teams and the players involved were great earlier in the 70s or after 82 that makes them great through that era.

My view is Carlton stood out then. Richmond was good but not great if we are using great to describe all time great sides. Collingwood were the next most prominent team through this era. Our opinions differ but I am not dismissing the other sides. I went to all those GFs. It was not one of the great eras like 67-74 for Richmond/ Carlton, 83-86 for Hawks / Essendon or 07-13 for Hawks/Geelong.

That's my opinion. I am not dismissing teams just rating them as lesser teams than you do.

 

[Doro]

I don't know if the actual teams have been posted but here they are.
They all have strong spines but lacked a superstar full forward, however the flanks and pockets are full of guns.
They were certainly great teams, the half forward line of 81/82 = scary

1979
B: 37 Wayne Harmes 20 Geoff Southby 43 David McKay
HB: 22 Robbert Klomp 11 Bruce Doull 33 Peter McConville
C: 47 Peter Francis 25 Alex Jesaulenko (c) 19 Michael Young
HF: 7 Wayne Johnston 36 Mark Maclure 8 Trevor Keogh
F: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick 41 Peter Brown 5 Ken Sheldon
Foll: 28 Peter Jones (vc) 12 Barry Armstrong 16 Jim Buckley
Int: 21 Rod Austin 34 Alex Marcou
Coach: Alex Jesaulenko

1981
B: 27 Des English 40 Scott Howell 15 Val Perovic
HB: 9 Ken Hunter 11 Bruce Doull 37 Wayne Harmes
C: 13 Phil Maylin 1 Greg Wells 32 David Glascott
HF: 4 Peter Bosustow 36 Mark Maclure 7 Wayne Johnston
F: 43 David McKay 33 Peter McConville 16 Jim Buckley
Foll: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick (c) 5 Ken Sheldon 14 Rod Ashman
Int: 34 Alex Marcou 6 Mario Bortolotto
Coach: David Parkin

1982
B: 27 Des English 11 Bruce Doull 15 Val Perovic
HB: 6 Mario Bortolotto 9 Ken Hunter 5 Ken Sheldon
C: 32 David Glascott 16 Jim Buckley 37 Wayne Harmes
HF: 4 Peter Bosustow 36 Mark Maclure 7 Wayne Johnston
F: 33 Peter McConville 8 Ross Ditchburn 34 Alex Marcou
Foll: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick (c) 13 Phil Maylin 14 Rod Ashman
Int: 2 Warren Jones 22 Robbert Klomp
Coach: David Parkin

Quite a lot of changes from 79 to 81, almost half the side- that may be one of the reasons its not remembered as being as 'great' as others.

 

[gavaniacono]

I was 14 in 84'..I remember that last qrt like it was yesterday. That's what premierships do to the footy soul.

Young bastard!

 

[Back One Out]

I rate the Hawks 80's outfits as the most consistent contenders but the Carlton early 80s teams and Bombers mid 80's teams best were even better. It is why the Carlton 1982 team beat the Hawks twice in the finals and probably the 82 qualifying final the most dazzling display I ever recall seeing in a finals series of quality sides. It is the game I wish I could most find on video again.
The Bombers 11 goals in last quarter of 1985 Grand Final over Hawks was also very powerful stuff.

I reckon you're comparing Carlton '81-'82 and Essendon '84-'85 to the Hawthorn teams of the early 80's (1982-1985) - those Hawk teams were good with Matthews, Knights, Tuck, Ayres, Mew, Brereton, Dipper, Wallace, Buckenara, Greene, Kennedy, Eade, Robertson, etc… They definitely weren't as good as Carlton '81 or Essendon '85. But the Hawks went to another level from 1986 to 1989 with their skill level and the emergence of Hall of Fame champions: Dunstall, Platten and Langford, plus a second wave of excellent players such as T.Hall, G.Dear, Collins, Pritchard, Curran, Condon, etc… Very unlucky with injuries to their best players in Sept 1987 otherwise they might've won four successive flags.

Carlton was also a bit lucky with the rainy day for 1982 Grand Final. They were the best wet weather team. The Tigers finished on top and whipped the Blues in the 2nd Semi Final, but the greasy conditions on Grand Final day suited their mosquito fleet.

Carlton 79-82
1979 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 139.6%. WW W W
1980 - 2nd - 17-0-5, 121.1%. L .L
1981 - 1st. - 17-0-5, 130.3%. WW W W
1982 - 3rd - 16-1-5, 127.5%. W L. W W

Essendon 82-85
1982 - 4th. - 16-0-6, 125.2%. L
1983 - 4th. - 15-0-7, 120.3%. W W W L
1984 - 1st. - 18-0-4, 128.2%. W L. W W
1985 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 138.4%. W.W W W

Hawthorn 86-89
1986 - 1st. - 18-0-4, 141.6%. W L. W W
1987 - 2nd - 17-0-5, 147.1%. W L. W .L
1988 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 142.3%. W W W W
1989 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 153.2%. W W W W

 

[Gone Critical]

I reckon you're comparing Carlton '81-'82 and Essendon '84-'85 to the Hawthorn teams of the early 80's (1982-1985) - those Hawk teams were good with Matthews, Knights, Tuck, Ayres, Mew, Brereton, Dipper, Wallace, Buckenara, Greene, Kennedy, Eade, Robertson, etc… They definitely weren't as good as Carlton '81 or Essendon '85. But the Hawks went to another level from 1986 to 1989 with their skill level and the emergence of Hall of Fame champions: Dunstall, Platten and Langford, plus a second wave of excellent players such as T.Hall, G.Dear, Collins, Pritchard, Curran, Condon, etc… Very unlucky with injuries to their best players in Sept 1987 otherwise they might've won four successive flags

Carlton 79-82
1979 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 139.6%. WW W W
1980 - 2nd - 17-0-5, 121.1%. L .L
1981 - 1st. - 17-0-5, 130.3%. WW W W
1982 - 3rd - 16-1-5, 127.5%. W L. W W

Essendon 82-85
1982 - 4th. - 16-0-6, 125.2%. L
1983 - 4th. - 15-0-7, 120.3%. W W W L
1984 - 1st. - 18-0-4, 128.2%. W L. W W
1985 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 138.4%. W.W W W

Hawthorn 86-89
1986 - 1st. - 18-0-4, 141.6%. W L. W W
1987 - 2nd - 17-0-5, 147.1%. W L. W .L
1988 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 142.3%. W W W W
1989 - 1st. - 19-0-3, 153.2%. W W W W

Agree that Hawks side was one of the 3-4 super sides in VFL/AFL history for mine. Collingwood 27-30, Melbourne 55-64 (the greatest) are the other 2 obvious candidates. Hawks 08-15 could be about to join them

 

[footyfan1978]

I reckon you're comparing Carlton '81-'82 and Essendon '84-'85 to the Hawthorn teams of the early 80's (1982-1985) - They definitely weren't as good as Carlton '81 or Essendon '85.

Not really. Hawks were a quality team in those times but Carlton best was better and similarly in 84 and 85 Essendon had a bit too much class for Hawks.
Where I respect Hawks in 1980's was the ability to be a contender so many years in a row.
Like Carlton and Essendon, naturally some players went and others came in but for the Hawks as a club get my highest respect for being runner up or premiers 7 years in a row.
Carlton fell away in 84 and 85 and were fairly ordinary and a shadow of the team from early 80's. Essendon after 85 also fell away. Both had injuries as part of the reasons they fell away but not the whole reason. I never saw a Hawks team the equal of Essendon 85 premiers or Carlton 82 premiers but for consistency they were really special.

Very unlucky with injuries to their best players in Sept 1987 otherwise they might've won four successive flags.

Carlton was also a bit lucky with the rainy day for 1982 Grand Final. They were the best wet weather team. The Tigers finished on top and whipped the Blues in the 2nd Semi Final, but the greasy conditions on Grand Final day suited their mosquito fleet.

Interesting considering in 1982 semi-final Carlton did not have the brilliant Wayne Johnston and Peter Bosustow but we were the lucky ones. Could just as easily say we were unlucky in 1982 to miss players in crucial semi-final but we came back in grand final to make up for it. Which we did.

Also 1987 we sadly lost Peter Motley to football and Des English was batting cancer. Whatever challenges Hawks had were nothing compared to ours to win the flag that year.
I could also suggest we were unlucky in 88 to have Wayne Johnston out of finals and on grand final day 1986 on crutches. The point is we all have various challenges at different times. Whom we think was lucky or unlucky is bound to be a little skewed depending on bias for or against.

Fascinating hearing the different opinions. Enjoyed this thread to hear the various views, even the ones I see it differently. I feel so lucky to have been born at right time to see a lot of football back then. Just wish I was old enough to have gone to the 79, 81 and 82 grand finals. Very jealous of those that went but thankfully I went to a lot of our home and away games in 1982 and can't think of a more enjoyable time to see my team play. The Buzz, The Dom, Bomber Sheldon, Kenny Hunter, Harmesy, Sellers, Jimmy Buckley, Doully, Perovic, Ashman, Fittzy, Wow Jones , McConville, Maylin and skinny Glascott. Entertainment at it's best.

 

[DrEvil_]

I was 14 in 84'..I remember that last qrt like it was yesterday. That's what premierships do to the footy soul.

Me too