Carlton in the Media (articles, podcasts etc) - Part 3

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JustaBattler said:
Cripps has become his own nemesis though - I think he sees himself as being capable of playing a more all-round role - but his kicking is average at best around the ground field and below average in set shots. With more genuine A grade support on ball - Cripps could easily become a Pavlich style mid-forward rotation - sans Pavlich's magnificent kicking technique. I loved watching him run through players in the Richmond game - and he has developed a good understanding with Walsh - similar to what he had going with Fisher. Williamson will give Crippa two players to feed making it harder for the opposition to stop center ball exits.

the real challenge is to find an inside bull that can stand in for Cripps - I dont see Dow as that - he plays small.
Click to expand...

Setterfield has the talent but probably lacks the aggression to be 'the man' - all eyes on L. Stocker
 
Kane Cornes is a joke. They cooked him in 2020 making him lose weight but now that he’s back to normal fingers crossed Cripps returns to his 2019 form this year and proves everyone wrong
 
JustaBattler said:
Cripps has become his own nemesis though - I think he sees himself as being capable of playing a more all-round role - but his kicking is average at best around the ground field and below average in set shots. With more genuine A grade support on ball - Cripps could easily become a Pavlich style mid-forward rotation - sans Pavlich's magnificent kicking technique. I loved watching him run through players in the Richmond game - and he has developed a good understanding with Walsh - similar to what he had going with Fisher. Williamson will give Crippa two players to feed making it harder for the opposition to stop center ball exits.

the real challenge is to find an inside bull that can stand in for Cripps - I dont see Dow as that - he plays small.
Click to expand...
If you get a chance, go back and watch the 2013 final. In that game, Dusty was absolutely ******* tiny; he looked like an emu, all thighs with chicken arms and a long neck. He had that breakaway pace, but his fendoff wasn't terribly effective.

Fast forward to 4 years later - 2017 - and he was an absolute monster, aided by the way Richmond use him. Fast forward another 4 years, and he's completely untacklable.

I don't know where Dow ends up, but he plays small for now. We'll see what he's like three, four years down the road if he manages to get things going this season. I don't see a situation in which he ends up playing as an AFL player and not becoming a dynamic type, because his physical attributes don't wed themselves toward being mediocre.
 

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smashbox gill said:
Kane Cornes is a joke. Fingers crossed Cripps returns to his 2019 form this year and proves everyone wrong
Click to expand...
All he said was he didn't believe Cripps hurt the opposition as much as some other midfielders. Does explosive distribution and spending half the game under packs of bodies so others don't have to, get factored into hurting the opposition?
 
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Gethelred said:
If you get a chance, go back and watch the 2013 final. In that game, Dusty was absolutely ******* tiny; he looked like an emu, all thighs with chicken arms and a long neck. He had that breakaway pace, but his fendoff wasn't terribly effective.

Fast forward to 4 years later - 2017 - and he was an absolute monster, aided by the way Richmond use him. Fast forward another 4 years, and he's completely untacklable.

I don't know where Dow ends up, but he plays small for now. We'll see what he's like three, four years down the road if he manages to get things going this season. I don't see a situation in which he ends up playing as an AFL player and not becoming a dynamic type, because his physical attributes don't wed themselves toward being mediocre.
Click to expand...
Someone call Swanny and get him to take Dow on a Vegas trip asap.
 
Gw2_James said:
Kane cornes on footy crucified, Cripps contract up soon, thinks he is not at the level or as damaging as a dustin martin/patrick dangerfield, and therefore wouldnt pay 1m+ a year for him. Thinks he is valued around 700-750k a year.

Don't totally disagree with kane for once, although 700-750k surely too low for a player like cripps, i woulda thought around 800-900k seemed closer to the mark.
Click to expand...
Cornes believes Carlton should not pay more than $750k for Cripps, yet Freo should pay about $1.1m where we will then need to decide if we match. Seriously, wtf is he on about?

If we are prepared to match $1.1m then that is what he is worth, not $750k. Should we insult the captain and then force him to stay? Yeah, that works well.

www.news.com.au

‘Don’t get sucked in’: Cornes’ $1m reality check to Blues star

Port Adelaide Hall of Fame member Kane Cornes believes Carlton should avoid overpaying star Patrick Cripps, even if it means losing the current captain at the end of the season.
www.news.com.au www.news.com.au

Kane is back in form ...
 
smashbox gill said:
Kane Cornes is a joke. They cooked him in 2020 making him lose weight but now that he’s back to normal fingers crossed Cripps returns to his 2019 form this year and proves everyone wrong
Click to expand...
Not sure why people get upset when he has an opinion which is part of his job. Sounded like he was prepared to admit when he was wrong with Walsh.
 
Gethelred said:
If you get a chance, go back and watch the 2013 final. In that game, Dusty was absolutely ******* tiny; he looked like an emu, all thighs with chicken arms and a long neck. He had that breakaway pace, but his fendoff wasn't terribly effective.

Fast forward to 4 years later - 2017 - and he was an absolute monster, aided by the way Richmond use him. Fast forward another 4 years, and he's completely untacklable.

I don't know where Dow ends up, but he plays small for now. We'll see what he's like three, four years down the road if he manages to get things going this season. I don't see a situation in which he ends up playing as an AFL player and not becoming a dynamic type, because his physical attributes don't wed themselves toward being mediocre.
Click to expand...

Respect your optimism G - but I don't think the Club has 4 or 5 years to wait for a pick 3 to develop into something it could do with now. There will be another A grade on baller targetted at the end of the year - no doubt. Wines would have been a perfect fit- but not to be - so I suspect Oliver or a Merrett type to be in sights - making finals will make a lot of things easier from here.

As for Martin - he could kick goals and make things happen back then - the fend off isn't his #1 weapon - his field kicking and goal sense is. But he can only kick the goals because other team mates can dominate contests and get the ball to him. the best way to limit Martin or any other gun foerward is to stop his team mates from winning contests and starve him of possession.
 
Jabba73 said:
Cornes believes Carlton should not pay more than $750k for Cripps, yet Freo should pay about $1.1m where we will then need to decide if we match. Seriously, wtf is he on about?

If we are prepared to match $1.1m then that is what he is worth, not $750k. Should we insult the captain and then force him to stay? Yeah, that works well.

www.news.com.au

‘Don’t get sucked in’: Cornes’ $1m reality check to Blues star

Port Adelaide Hall of Fame member Kane Cornes believes Carlton should avoid overpaying star Patrick Cripps, even if it means losing the current captain at the end of the season.
www.news.com.au www.news.com.au

Kane is back in form ...
Click to expand...

Kane is right, and you'd hope that after eight years in the wilderness Patrick is willing to take a smaller contract for the sake of team success. Save for Richmond/Dusty, clubs that match monster FA contracts have a habit of falling apart shortly thereafter.
 
El Topo said:
Setterfield has the talent but probably lacks the aggression to be 'the man' - all eyes on L. Stocker
Click to expand...

Stocker and Kemp should be huge additions for us over the next year or so. In Kemp we've got a very classy player with size up the sleeve - a bit like all the guns Sydney rolls out and takes everyone by surprise - except better.
 
JustaBattler said:
Respect your optimism G - but I don't think the Club has 4 or 5 years to wait for a pick 3 to develop into something it could do with now. There will be another A grade on baller targetted at the end of the year - no doubt. Wines would have been a perfect fit- but not to be - so I suspect Oliver or a Merrett type to be in sights - making finals will make a lot of things easier from here.

As for Martin - he could kick goals and make things happen back then - the fend off isn't his #1 weapon - his field kicking and goal sense is. But he can only kick the goals because other team mates can dominate contests and get the ball to him. the best way to limit Martin or any other gun foerward is to stop his team mates from winning contests and starve him of possession.
Click to expand...
Thing with Hawthorn, Geelong and Richmond has been the fact that they've each been suuuuper patient with particular players that went on to become lynchpins to their 22. Dusty was not worth the investment prior to 2017; good, but not a great player at pick 3; Rance took years, Grimes was nigh constantly seen as a scrubber, Astbury and Vlaustin as mids. Bartel took 5 years to solidify his position in that first 22; Stevie J was almost delisted the year before he won the norm smith, Harry Taylor and Hawkins spent years chugging away before they broke out, Taylor having to wait in the twos until Scarlett retired and Hawkins being a waste of space for 4 seasons. Smith, Gunston, Puopolo, Breust, Shiel, Stratton, Birchill, Hill; these blokes took time.

The thing is, with some players and some types you're simply not going to see their best footy or even AFL quality footy inside their 25th year. You need to be able to look in order to see the players who have prospective for growth, and players whose ceilings are pretty close to how they're going now.

I had a look a year or so ago into roughly how long it takes sides to complete their rebuilds and win a flag, and what I observed was that there's two phases to a team's progress; initial rise to finals and competitiveness - in which a side either broke through (Hawthorn and WB in 2008 and 2016 respectively) or fell back to the pack (Geelong, 2003-04, Richmond 2013-16, Collingwood 2006-08) - and then a recalibration, in which those teams went through their lists and their coaching, and improved on what they had. One of the observations I made was that some teams - Carlton 2009-2013, Essendon 2010-13, Fremantle 2013-14, Melbourne 2001-03 - never rose again had something in common; instead of trying to add to their lists or refining their approach, they got rid of coaches, believed that what they had on their list was already enough to win a flag, and tried to hold what they had together by avoiding trades or drafting.

The outcome of what I found was that teams take in and around 5-8 years to achieve that initial rise, and if they rise again they tend towards taking another 3-4 seasons to win a flag. Rebuilds take time, and for a team to achieve dynastic status they need to be allowed to develop for longer timeframes than most would accept.
 
Gethelred said:
Thing with Hawthorn, Geelong and Richmond has been the fact that they've each been suuuuper patient with particular players that went on to become lynchpins to their 22. Dusty was not worth the investment prior to 2017; good, but not a great player at pick 3; Rance took years, Grimes was nigh constantly seen as a scrubber, Astbury and Vlaustin as mids. Bartel took 5 years to solidify his position in that first 22; Stevie J was almost delisted the year before he won the norm smith, Harry Taylor and Hawkins spent years chugging away before they broke out, Taylor having to wait in the twos until Scarlett retired and Hawkins being a waste of space for 4 seasons. Smith, Gunston, Puopolo, Breust, Shiel, Stratton, Birchill, Hill; these blokes took time.

The thing is, with some players and some types you're simply not going to see their best footy or even AFL quality footy inside their 25th year. You need to be able to look in order to see the players who have prospective for growth, and players whose ceilings are pretty close to how they're going now.

I had a look a year or so ago into roughly how long it takes sides to complete their rebuilds and win a flag, and what I observed was that there's two phases to a team's progress; initial rise to finals and competitiveness - in which a side either broke through (Hawthorn and WB in 2008 and 2016 respectively) or fell back to the pack (Geelong, 2003-04, Richmond 2013-16, Collingwood 2006-08) - and then a recalibration, in which those teams went through their lists and their coaching, and improved on what they had. One of the observations I made was that some teams - Carlton 2009-2013, Essendon 2010-13, Fremantle 2013-14, Melbourne 2001-03 - never rose again had something in common; instead of trying to add to their lists or refining their approach, they got rid of coaches, believed that what they had on their list was already enough to win a flag, and tried to hold what they had together by avoiding trades or drafting.

The outcome of what I found was that teams take in and around 5-8 years to achieve that initial rise, and if they rise again they tend towards taking another 3-4 seasons to win a flag. Rebuilds take time, and for a team to achieve dynastic status they need to be allowed to develop for longer timeframes than most would accept.
Click to expand...
Really good post G.

I agree it does take time for players to develop to their best.

Carlton now has the infrasrtucture (its own VFL team) AND the list depth to actually start the process of proper development. Dow may or may not make it time doesn't guarantee anything- but proper development of similar aged cohorts in a seconds team is THE key to sustainable success. Right now we are 'short' KPP depth in reserves - I am sure that that will be targetted as well.

However, due to SOS's unpopular but 100% correct salary cap recalibration - we also have access to the salary cap required to round out existing on field capability. We have the talent to play finals and stay there given what we have - assuming the coaches know what they are doing. In this way players who have shown enough in reserves can be brought in to play a role if injury or poor form calls for it.

My reference was to the here and now- who stacks up as genuine AFL standard and who doesn't - within the context of who we have and what is required to be achieved on field. the Club could do with another genuine extractor on ball - 90% game time is too much for any midfielder. Our thin stocks saw us get run over by Richmond half way through the 4th. Maybe Williams and Maertin rotations will be enough - we will see.
 

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Gethelred said:
Thing with Hawthorn, Geelong and Richmond has been the fact that they've each been suuuuper patient with particular players that went on to become lynchpins to their 22. Dusty was not worth the investment prior to 2017; good, but not a great player at pick 3; Rance took years, Grimes was nigh constantly seen as a scrubber, Astbury and Vlaustin as mids. Bartel took 5 years to solidify his position in that first 22; Stevie J was almost delisted the year before he won the norm smith, Harry Taylor and Hawkins spent years chugging away before they broke out, Taylor having to wait in the twos until Scarlett retired and Hawkins being a waste of space for 4 seasons. Smith, Gunston, Puopolo, Breust, Shiel, Stratton, Birchill, Hill; these blokes took time.

The thing is, with some players and some types you're simply not going to see their best footy or even AFL quality footy inside their 25th year. You need to be able to look in order to see the players who have prospective for growth, and players whose ceilings are pretty close to how they're going now.

I had a look a year or so ago into roughly how long it takes sides to complete their rebuilds and win a flag, and what I observed was that there's two phases to a team's progress; initial rise to finals and competitiveness - in which a side either broke through (Hawthorn and WB in 2008 and 2016 respectively) or fell back to the pack (Geelong, 2003-04, Richmond 2013-16, Collingwood 2006-08) - and then a recalibration, in which those teams went through their lists and their coaching, and improved on what they had. One of the observations I made was that some teams - Carlton 2009-2013, Essendon 2010-13, Fremantle 2013-14, Melbourne 2001-03 - never rose again had something in common; instead of trying to add to their lists or refining their approach, they got rid of coaches, believed that what they had on their list was already enough to win a flag, and tried to hold what they had together by avoiding trades or drafting.

The outcome of what I found was that teams take in and around 5-8 years to achieve that initial rise, and if they rise again they tend towards taking another 3-4 seasons to win a flag. Rebuilds take time, and for a team to achieve dynastic status they need to be allowed to develop for longer timeframes than most would accept.
Click to expand...
Not sure the * team of that era is worthy of comparison, they artificially became competitive and lost their coach because they are dirty drug cheats.

Having our own VFL is the step we needed to take to help our development of players so they can do what we need them to do in order to progress to the senior team.

Patience has never been a virtue at the Blues, hope we have the right coaching structure in place and we stick with it long enough to see if it can be successful.
 
Jabba73 said:
Not sure the * team of that era is worthy of comparison, they artificially became competitive and lost their coach because they are dirty drug cheats.

Having our own VFL is the step we needed to take to help our development of players so they can do what we need them to do in order to progress to the senior team.

Patience has never been a virtue at the Blues, hope we have the right coaching structure in place and we stick with it long enough to see if it can be successful.
Click to expand...
Ah, but they still fit the pattern; a team that was on the rise, sought an additional advantage only to fall due to internal disunity/infighting and an inability to retain what they had. The key driver towards a dynasty is resolving the weaknesses discovered in that initial foray with finals. Essendon's resolution resulted in them taking performance enhancing substances, and thus they doomed themselves no less than everyone else on that list.

The funny thing is that St Kilda under Lyon fit the criteria, but unlike other teams that rise and fall, St Kilda did it the right way (rose initially under Grant Thomas, redeveloped and reshaped their list and brought in Ross Lyon and cultivated new strategies and developed quality youth to adapt to the weaknesses discovered years prior) yet were unable to break through. They rose, fell, and rose again and were arguably the clear best side in 2009-2010 other than the teams which went on to win those flags (Geelong and Collingwood).

They were an outlier, but an interesting one because Ross isn't one to promote youth. He's a dictator within his club, and sticks his nose into recruiting, development, etc; at both St Kilda and Fremantle, he essentially played seniors over and above talented youth. Development wasn't his thing, and he wasn't interested in refreshing the list.

The analysis suggests that Port Adelaide is due for a flag from this year on. They rose (2013-14) under Hinkley and fell for 3-4 years, and were in the hunt last year. They'd need to improve on last year though, because they failed to put teams away when it was their turn.
 
El Topo said:
Kane is right, and you'd hope that after eight years in the wilderness Patrick is willing to take a smaller contract for the sake of team success. Save for Richmond/Dusty, clubs that match monster FA contracts have a habit of falling apart shortly thereafter.
Click to expand...
Just a question so don’t shoot
If carlton had opportunity to get 2 really good players for Cripps that will suit this more free and open rules, would you? Yes
And why not ? No
I’m 60/40
 
forever blue 1 said:
Just a question so don’t shoot
If carlton had opportunity to get 2 really good players for Cripps that will suit this more free and open rules, would you? Yes
And why not ? No
I’m 60/40
Click to expand...

Best outcome for the club is Cripps taking less $$$ to stay - though I can't help but wonder if the absence of a Judd/Cripps in the side would remove a crutch that certain coaches and midfielders are all too comfortable leaning on
 
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