Cats Coaching Restructure Announced

[you pick one]

I think what the club means is that you certainly need someone to teach young players how to ruck, but that you need someone to do that who has an IQ higher than that of the average ex-ruckman.

We had him, we let him go and he worked for nothing I believe.

 

[you pick one]

A quality ruckman wouldn't even fix those glaring concerns.

If I was any good with editing footage, I could post endless vision of the same circumstances.

The best midfield in the league would struggle with that set-up.

Same here but I'm a rank amateur at this stuff.

 

[Cezz The Catter]

People are just looking for someone to blame

I blame Gary Ayres. He had something to do with this form slump.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Who ever allows this at a stoppage needs to be re educated,6 on 4 and 2 Hawks on the outside with Hale in the ruck.

Lol
Great pick up, ypo!
Is it due to our boys not running hard enough?

 

[Cezz The Catter]

Lol
Great pick up, ypo!
Is it due to our boys not running hard enough?

looks like the umps manning up. Great play by the ever faithful 23rd man.

 

[cats2rise]

Maybe we could start a crowdfund for a ruck/stoppage coach - even part time would help!
It could be this boards legacy...

 

[you pick one]

Lol
Great pick up, ypo!
Is it due to our boys not running hard enough?

Doubtful given the first shot is early in the first quarter and the second roughly middle of 2nd quarter immediately following a centre bounce where you would expect everyone would have found a man unless as I suspect they were still off somewhere guarding their little piece of grass.

 

[EnjoyerOfDampCats]

Who ever allows this at a stoppage needs to be re educated,6 on 4 and 2 Hawks on the outside with Hale in the ruck.

your not allowed to post stuff like this people get upset

 

[Seeds]

I'm interested in your reasoning as to why you think our midfield improved. Not saying you're wrong and I'm not trying to cause an argument, I merely find this an interesting topic as I have a varying opinion on the matter and it's something that's irked me for a while watching games.

I mentioned earlier that I think our structures at the stoppages are a mess and this vision posted by ypo illustrates my concerns. I basically seen this throughout large chunks of games and at times during critical moments. I blamed O'Bree as I thought he was still in charge of the midfield... maybe it's a flow on effect from his coaching and Knights needs time to develop the system, not sure, merely speculating.

Allaying my fears would be appreciated because if O'Bree wasn't the problem then I sure as hell hope Knights isn't.

It's still a problem but it's improved.

Last year we lost the clearances and contested stats nearly every game. We couldn't blame ruckman as for most of the season we were ok in the ruck hit outs with McIntosh and Simpson, not great but ok. This year we have done better at clearances and contested stats. We have won the clearances in a lot more games. This is despite the fact we have had Blicavs and Stanley as our main rucks for most of the year and struggled more in the hit outs. Put the two together and its a clear improvement. Also need to add the fact that our best midfielder in selwood had a broken hand this year and struggled unlike last year where he wasn't far from a Brownlow. We also lost Johnson from the midfield this year. Two pretty big outs right there and yet we still did better at clearances.

 

[Pivo]

Seeds and Nakia, to possibly help/hinder your discussions.

I'm certainly not one to buy into stats as the be-all-and-end-all but when I looked at the numbers on AFL.com.au to check some clearance data I did find the basic statistics that seemed to support what I believed I was seeing throughout the year (that our midfield was basically dishing up more of the same from the last couple of seasons).

There were some surprises though.

Admittedly these figures are pretty basic. They don't tell us things like whether the take-away resulted in a scoring opportunity or if the weather was wet which usually results in more ball-ups and throw-ins and so on and so on.

I also haven't been bothered to cross-reference against total number of goals scored in each game (obviously the more goals, the more centre bounces, the more chance for centre clearances...I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know).

In 2015 I've broken it down into the first 11 rounds and then the last 10. Conveniently, Stanley injured himself in the Port game which is was Round 11 giving us a neat cut-off point for losing a ruckman who was establishing himself.

2015 Averages - First 11 Games

Hit Outs = 35.9
Total Clearances = 35.5
Total Centre Clearances = 12.4
Total Stoppages = 23.1

2015 Averages - Last 10 Games

Hit Outs = 33
Total Clearances = 33.7
Total Centre Clearances = 12
Total Stoppages = 21.7

Based on those numbers it doesn't really look like anything changed throughout the year (minor dips in the last 10 games but not enough to be significant in my mind).

So, even with Stanley's season ending, Selwood playing injured and Duncan missing games the figures don't really move much through-out the season.

In 2015 across all sides Geelong ranked;

17th: Average Hit Outs
18th: Average Clearances
10th: Average Centre Clearances
18th: Average Stoppages

In 2014 across all sides Geelong ranked;

12th: Average Hit Outs
18th: Average Clearances
15th: Average Centre Clearances
18th: Average Stoppages

The Hit Out numbers certainly supports the observation that our rucks were 'thinner' in 2015 when compared to 2014.

Interestingly, despite having fewer hitouts (which may have as much to do with fewer goals being scored in games involving us thus limiting opportunities for hit-out and centre breaks) in 2015 we had more success at getting the ball away from the centre of the ground. When you couple this with an injured Selwood and less time spent at centre bounces from more mature players there is certainly cause for optimism.

Hence, the "improved" midfield performance (although the improvement in centre clearances was only by 1 which is, I think, minor).

The worry, for me, is around the stoppages. For 3 years running we have finished at the foot of this category. In 2013 we averaged 21.5, in 2014 we averaged 22.7 and in 2015 we averaged 22.2.

We are pretty much treading water in this category. It could be argued that using make shift rucks contributed to the figures in 2015 but that is seemingly at odds with the improvement in the centre clearances. It also doesn't really account for similar numbers the previous two years.

Earlier in the year I suggested that guys like Guthrie and Caddy and, to a much lesser degree, Lang and Horlin-Smith currently prefer operating at centre clearances because there are fewer bodies around them. They have slightly more room to operate in.

At a stoppage there are more players involved and more variables to try and control.

The numbers obviously don't tell the whole story, for all I know when people say "improved midfield" they might be talking more holistic. But when I think of midfield performance, I instantly think of clearance work. The centre clearances, with no real ruck, is better than I expected in 2015, especially when looking back on our previous year.

The stoppage numbers are still a real concern and probably points to why we went out and got Smith and Dangerfield and S. Selwood. Hopefully they'll help bump up our numbers in 2016.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Differentials are the important metric, am I right 10lana

 

[Lana]

It's still a problem but it's improved.

Last year we lost the clearances and contested stats nearly every game. We couldn't blame ruckman as for most of the season we were ok in the ruck hit outs with McIntosh and Simpson, not great but ok. This year we have done better at clearances and contested stats. We have won the clearances in a lot more games. This is despite the fact we have had Blicavs and Stanley as our main rucks for most of the year and struggled more in the hit outs. Put the two together and its a clear improvement. Also need to add the fact that our best midfielder in selwood had a broken hand this year and struggled unlike last year where he wasn't far from a Brownlow. We also lost Johnson from the midfield this year. Two pretty big outs right there and yet we still did better at clearances.

In 2014 we had a differential of -4.4 per game (ranked 17th).
While in 2015 we had a differential of -5.3 per game (ranked 18th)

Regardless of the reasons, it certainly hasn't improved statically.

 

[Lana]

Differentials are the important metric, am I right 10lana

You just got that in while I was posting them

 

[Art Vandelay_]

In 2014 we had a differential of -4.4 per game (ranked 17th).
While in 2015 we had a differential of -5.3 per game (ranked 18th)

Regardless of the reasons, it certainly hasn't improved statically.

You just got that in while I was posting them

great minds think alike

I think though that our centre clearance differential from memory had improved, iirc from looking it up we were middle of the road but were abominable at stoppages.

 

[Lana]

great minds think alike

I think though that our centre clearance differential from memory had improved, iirc from looking it up we were middle of the road but were abominable at stoppages.

If you have access to that stat I'd love to see it. It'd save me some leg work down the track.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

If you have access to that stat I'd love to see it. It'd save me some leg work down the track.

Nah there was still plenty of leg work, I went through each match centre on afl.com.au and added up our clearance difs all year, cannot find the excel spreadsheet I put it in but I do recall us improving to middle of the road at centre bounces.

 

[Boxhead_31]

Who ever allows this at a stoppage needs to be re educated,6 on 4 and 2 Hawks on the outside with Hale in the ruck.

Plus Lewis unchecked to be able to do what he does at most contests and be the third man up

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Plus Lewis unchecked to be able to do what he does at most contests and be the third man up

Not as concerning as leaving Smith alone to get that outside ball.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Doubtful given the first shot is early in the first quarter and the second roughly middle of 2nd quarter immediately following a centre bounce where you would expect everyone would have found a man unless as I suspect they were still off somewhere guarding their little piece of grass.

Sounds like they got sucked into staying out of the contest- which should work maybe the one time but not a second time...

 

[Teriyakicat]

Nah there was still plenty of leg work, I went through each match centre on afl.com.au and added up our clearance difs all year, cannot find the excel spreadsheet I put it in but I do recall us improving to middle of the road at centre bounces.

If you've got any excel files with stats hanging around, 10lana would love 'em.
10lana- I've been a bit busy starting up a couple of different tables - will share once I have finished. One of them involves some clearance stats. If NSFB can't find his stats, I can just add the differential to each round on top of what I already have.

 

[Willo_]

Not as concerning as leaving Smith alone to get that outside ball.

I think just is concerning is that Hartung is on the other side, we have 3 mids engaged and they have 2 speed demons sitting free on either side to take off.
Hawks wouldn't even care about Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis getting it there and from the look of that shot 2 of the Hawks are doing body work to keep our guys in check... they want to nullify us and if the ball can get knocked to either wing they are out.

We have guys that are either lazy or were sitting back to try fill the hole defensive side.... which is ok if our 4 on 6 forces an under pressure kick forward....useless if they get it out to either runner.

 

[you pick one]

Plus Lewis unchecked to be able to do what he does at most contests and be the third man up

Not as concerning as leaving Smith alone to get that outside ball.

Sounds like they got sucked into staying out of the contest- which should work maybe the one time but not a second time...

I think just is concerning is that Hartung is on the other side, we have 3 mids engaged and they have 2 speed demons sitting free on either side to take off.
Hawks wouldn't even care about Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis getting it there and from the look of that shot 2 of the Hawks are doing body work to keep our guys in check... they want to nullify us and if the ball can get knocked to either wing they are out.

We have guys that are either lazy or were sitting back to try fill the hole defensive side.... which is ok if our 4 on 6 forces an under pressure kick forward....useless if they get it out to either runner.

We didn't get much right did we.As for the blue bit it's the perfect set up if you are allowed to get away with it.

 

[Seeds]

Seeds and Nakia, to possibly help/hinder your discussions.

I'm certainly not one to buy into stats as the be-all-and-end-all but when I looked at the numbers on AFL.com.au to check some clearance data I did find the basic statistics that seemed to support what I believed I was seeing throughout the year (that our midfield was basically dishing up more of the same from the last couple of seasons).

There were some surprises though.

Admittedly these figures are pretty basic. They don't tell us things like whether the take-away resulted in a scoring opportunity or if the weather was wet which usually results in more ball-ups and throw-in and so on and so on.

I also have been bothered to cross-reference against total number of goals scored in each game (obviously the more goals, the more centre bounces, the chance for centre clearances...I'm not tell you guys anything you don't already know).

In 2015 I've broken it down into the first 11 rounds and then the last 10. Conveniently, Stanley injured himself in the Port game which is was Round 11 giving us a neat cut-off point for losing a ruckman who was establishing himself.

2015 Averages - First 11 Games

Hit Outs = 35.9
Total Clearances = 35.5
Total Centre Clearances = 12.4
Total Stoppages = 23.1

2015 Averages - Last 10 Games

Hit Outs = 33
Total Clearances = 33.7
Total Centre Clearances = 12
Total Stoppages = 21.7

Based on those numbers it doesn't really look like anything changed throughout the year (minor dips in the last 10 games but not enough to be significant in my mind).

So, even with Stanley's season ending, Selwood playing injured and Duncan missing games the figures don't really move much through-out the season.

In 2015 across all sides Geelong ranked;

17th: Average Hit Outs
18th: Average Clearances
10th: Average Centre Clearances
18th: Average Stoppages

In 2014 across all sides Geelong ranked;

12th: Average Hit Outs
18th: Average Clearances
15th: Average Centre Clearances
18th: Average Stoppages

The Hit Out numbers certainly supports the observation that our rucks were 'thinner' in 2015 when compared to 2014.

Interestingly, despite having fewer hitouts (which may have as much to do with fewer goals being scored in games involving us thus limiting opportunities for hit-out and centre breaks) in 2015 we had more success at getting the ball away from the centre of the ground. When you couple this with an injured Selwood and less time spent at centre bounces from more mature players there is certainly cause for optimism.

Hence, the "improved" midfield performance (although the improvement in centre clearances was only by 1 which is, I think, minor).

The worry, for me, is around the stoppages. For 3 years running we have finished at the foot of this category. In 2013 we averaged 21.5, in 2014 we averaged 22.7 and in 2015 we averaged 22.2.

We are pretty much treading water in this category. It could be argued that using make shift rucks contributed to the figures in 2015 but that is seemingly at odds with the improvement in the centre clearances. It also doesn't really account for similar numbers the previous two years.

Earlier in the year I suggested that guys like Guthrie and Caddy and, to a much lesser degree, Lang and Horlin-Smith currently prefer operating at centre clearances because there are fewer bodies around them. They have slightly more room to operate in.

At a stoppage there are more players involved and more variables to try and control.

The numbers obviously don't tell the whole story, for all I know when people say "improved midfield" they might be talking more holistic. But when I think of midfield performance, I instantly think of clearance work. The centre clearances, with no real ruck, is better than I expected in 2015, especially when looking back on our previous year.

The stoppage numbers are still a real concern and probably points to why we went out and got Smith and Dangerfield and S. Selwood. Hopefully they'll help bump up our numbers in 2016.

Thanks for that. We've had a marginal improvement in 2015, mostly in the centre clearances but still a long long way to go. Interesting that the clearances stat matches up so closely to the hit out stats. Maybe tap ruckman are worth it.

 

[vinum coupe]

You'd have to think that without a ruck coach, luceys chances of making it diminish.

As for the midfield coaching.
I know pivo quoted that article. But didn't we move Lappin out of the assistants role (officially) so that he was allowed to be our runner? Or was that the year before?

 

[you pick one]

Thanks for that. We've had a marginal improvement in 2015, mostly in the centre clearances but still a long long way to go. Interesting that the clearances stat matches up so closely to the hit out stats. Maybe tap ruckman are worth it.

A couple of factors spring to mind there 1 our younger mids are improving all the time and 2 we can't get our numbers around the ball wrong at centre bounces,well you would hope you wouldn't.