Changes for the 3rd Test

[Wolfs]

The thing is like just because they really do well in domestic doesn't always mean that they do well in internationals. It is about finding like temperament and characteristics and stuff.

Look at some excellent County Players - Ramprakesh, Hick and Lyth to name a few. So just because they are amazing at domestic level doesn't mean it will work out in test level. Need to remember it is just more than just making runs and taking wickets. Not saying that making runs and taking wickets doesn't mean anything.

 

[The Passenger]

The thing is like just because they really do well in domestic doesn't always mean that they do well in internationals. It is about finding like temperament and characteristics and stuff.

Look at some excellent County Players - Ramprakesh, Hick and Lyth to name a few. So just because they are amazing at domestic level doesn't mean it will work out in test level. Need to remember it is just more than just making runs and taking wickets. Not saying that making runs and taking wickets doesn't mean anything.

Michael Bevan had an amazing shield record, but just couldn't cut it in tests.

My biggest issue with picking young guys who haven't got the performances in the lower levels is that it gives them this sense that they don't necessarily need to perform to keep getting picked.

 

[roscreasl98]

Rod Marsh gooooone

If we want a winning culture, then we have to look at Victoria.

Last 2 Shields, and on target for a 3 peat. Shaun Graf's the man. Not a household name, but successful, isn't that what we need? Simon Helmot's another.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Warner
S.Marsh (if fit)
Khawaja
Smith
Handscombe
Ferguson (only played one Test, deserves a second chance)
Wade (need grit and runs through the middle order)
O'Keefe (Lyon is right out of form, O'Keefe is going well enough and bats alot better)
Starc
Hazelwood
Sayers (as conditions will suit swing at night)
Bird 12th

 

[roscreasl98]

Warner
S.Marsh (if fit)
Khawaja
Smith
Handscombe
Ferguson (only played one Test, deserves a second chance)
Wade (need grit and runs through the middle order)
O'Keefe (Lyon is right out of form, O'Keefe is going well enough and bats alot better)
Starc
Hazelwood
Sayers (as conditions will suit swing at night)
Bird 12th

Would keep Lyon. Home ground, and he needs a bit of confidence that's all.
Cameron White for Ferguson. I was at Bellerive, and Ferguson looked worse live than on TV. But not as bad as Voags (As Punter calls him).
Whites performances demand he gets a game.

Otherwise agree.

 

[Jimthegreat]

CA wanting curators to produce roads in Australia in recent years so Tests go 5 days have really hurt our side badly. Unfortunately you can only bat on what's dished up and beciase of this policy we've had no practice on seaming pitches. Now we are paying big time.

 

[ROOTA#6]

Also, if Nevill was to be dropped they should look at Sam Whiteman before Wade in my humble

Whitman is about to be dropped from the WA side isn't he....apologies if already mentioned but haven't read the whole thread yet

 

[Belnakor]

Why wasn't sayers picked before now?

 

[ROOTA#6]

I absolutely agree. That's why I said it's the perception.

A common remark for a few players is "He's a good Shield player but he's not Test standard" or "He's not ready yet" and a line is put through him. Can't they pick someone who isn't the finish article yet but let him refine his game at the top level. Why wait until he's too old? Why not pick someone who might be and let him learn. Ponting, Hayden, S.Waugh, Langer, Martyn etc all got picked before they were ready, showed enough but couldn't hold their spot but their game improved and they came back better for the experience. If they think a Patterson or Bancroft or Maddinson or Handscomb will be good enough, let's have a look at them. I'd rather one of those guys getting single figure scores over a 37yo or a 32yo debutant who won't ever play more than a handful of games and won't ever be any better than they are now.

Ponting was the most ready player ever to be picked plus being the freak that he was at that age

 

[The_Reaper]

The Australian cricket public and media don't have the patience to stick with a young bloke

 

[Belnakor]

Ponting was the most ready player ever to be picked plus being the freak that he was at that age

Martyn hit 3 hundreds on the trot in the shield before getting picked. Complete no brainer even when he was super young at that time.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The Australian cricket public and media don't have the patience to stick with a young bloke

This is true unfortunately. The 1986 Steve Waugh would never have survived.

It's also that the selectors/coaches don't have the balls to ride out some criticism. They need to be seen to be doing something so are constantly turning the team over rather than backing their decisions in.

 

[The Passenger]

Ponting was the most ready player ever to be picked plus being the freak that he was at that age

All those guys except Steve Waugh were banging down the door in shield cricket when they got selected. And as you say, Ponting had three seasons averaging 50+ in shield. Doesn't get much easier to pick a young bloke than that.

 

[Kram]

Martyn hit 3 hundreds on the trot in the shield before getting picked. Complete no brainer even when he was super young at that time.

Wasn't one also on an extremely tough wicket that hardly anyone else scored on?

 

[The Passenger]

This is true unfortunately. The 1986 Steve Waugh would never have survived.

Why not? Mitch Marsh has been backed in and given 20 tests, and will almost certainly get another crack at it. He and Steve Waugh's paths have been remarkably similar to the same age.

 

[roscreasl98]

The Australian cricket public and media don't have the patience to stick with a young bloke

Its not up to them.

 

[The Passenger]

Wasn't one also on an extremely tough wicket that hardly anyone else scored on?

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/56/56539.html
Twin centuries in a match with only one other century and two other half centuries. Picked for Australia about six weeks later.

I can't find the 3 tons in a row being referred to earlier but he did score 800 runs at 52 in 91/92 shield season, and opened up the next one with the above game. Wasn't some great "find" by the selectors at the time to pick him.

 

[Cleavy]

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/56/56539.html

I don't recall seeing Storey mentioned before, ever. One for the obscure cricketers thread?

 

[aussie1st]

Why wasn't sayers picked before now?

Can't bat

 

[Belnakor]

Wasn't one also on an extremely tough wicket that hardly anyone else scored on?

yup first day pitch in Hobart, http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/69/69236.html

sorry this is when he got back in the team.

 

[Damon_3388]

Why not? Mitch Marsh has been backed in and given 20 tests, and will almost certainly get another crack at it. He and Steve Waugh's paths have been remarkably similar to the same age.

By the same age (25 years, 28 days, 29/06/1990), Steve Waugh had 39 Tests to his name, with a batting average of 39.66, with 3 centuries and 13 50s, and a bowling average of 41.86, with 2 5-fers. Mitch Marsh is around the mark with his bowling (much better strike rate, although far more expensive), but he can only dream of such numbers with the bat at this stage. Hell, it's questionable whether Marsh will even play another 20 Tests to get to 39.

 

[Damon_3388]

Why wasn't sayers picked before now?

Because he's never had a combination of hot form, fitness and an available place in his favour. His best full season, and only one that could be considered "great", was 4 years ago now, too. He's in good form at the moment, but that could even out as the season goes on.

Sayers' Shield record:

2010-11 - 1 match, 2 wickets, 47.50 average, 105.00 strike rate, 2.71 economy rate, 0 5-fers
2011-12 - 2 matches, 9 wickets, 23.44 average, 52.67 strike rate, 2.67 economy rate, 1 5-fers
2012-13 - 9 matches, 48 wickets, 18.52 average, 44.13 strike rate, 2.52 economy rate, 3 5-fers
2013-14 - 10 matches, 36 wickets, 28.06 average, 66.00 strike rate, 2.55 economy rate, 0 5-fers
2014-15 - 5 matches, 12 wickets, 31.50 average, 76.00 strike rate, 2.49 economy rate, 1 5-fer
2015-16 - 8 matches, 32 wickets, 27.78 average, 57.41 strike rate, 2.90 economy rate, 1 5-fer
2016-17 - 2 matches, 17 wickets, 10.82 average, 25.59 strike rate, 2.54 economy rate, 2 5-fers
-----
Career - 37 matches, 156 wickets, 23.44 average, 55.03 strike rate, 2.56 economy rate, 8 5-fers

His record is good without being consistently (year in, year out) outstanding, and like it or not, his lack of pace and versatility presents doubts as to his potential effectiveness at international level. Nevertheless, he's played a number of FC games for Australia A over the years, so the selectors are definitely aware of him, and he's been in the frame for a while if things happen to go his way.

What I find weird is that despite his reputation for line and length combined with swing and movement, he's had no success in limited overs stuff. Hasn't played a List A match in two years, and has never played a state-level or BBL T20. Honestly, I feel like he's just Trent Copeland Mk II (and only about 18 months younger).

 

[TBellicious]

Read really good things about Marcus Harris in the Hun.
Think he's averaging 89 in Vic

 

[The Passenger]

Damon_3388 fair call. Maybe not to the exact same age but to a similar age. If you look at Steve Waugh prior to the 89 Ashes (when he was just turned 24 a week or two prior) and to Mitch Marsh now (who is not long after turning 25) then it's a very similar position.

I'm too young too recall so wouldn't know whether it looked like Waugh was about to hit a turning point and that's why they stuck with him. He really came of age in the 89 Ashes, but then subsequently his form dropped off and he got dropped completely in 1991. Or maybe the 89 series was a complete anomaly as when he was dropped he averaged only 30 when excluding the 89 Ashes.

Looking at Mitch Marsh I don't see any signs that he is about to turn some corner and see a sudden spike in his batting. If anything he is finding it tougher and tougher. But like I said the fundamentals are there. I think a season and a half out of the test team could really do him the world of good, the way it did for Waugh between 1991 and the 92/93 West Indies series.

 

[The_Reaper]

Why wasn't sayers picked before now?

For a while now (if not pretty much always) Australian selectors have selected fast bowlers based on players that miss the list of desired at
tributes they want from their quicks and picking the next bloke in line who is fit - tall or fast and preferably both.

This is why Starc and Cummins were selected without having any performances for NSW to back it and while Josh Hazlewood did earn selection he was around squads for years before his debut.

Occasionally they go away from that due to injury or desperation.

Sayers did not meet their desired traits