Changes Vs. Saints

[Invigoration]

I am sick of posters on here who bag Fraser. Why dont you support the club or go barrack for Richmond.

And you call yourself a supporter.

Don't take it to heart Greg, you're a shit poster, but it isn't as if I just singled you out... there are a lot of other shit posters just like you, so keep your chin up.

 

[Genc the Magpieman]

Agreed.

Rational discussion has no place in forums. We should mindlessly support each and every aspect of our club. On-field improvement can only come from blind support from the supporter-base. Every player on our list is a superstar, criticism is off limits.

But really, ignoring the imbecile here, Fraser has been very average, Jolly is our number 1 ruckman, we will be too tall against the Saints if we bring in Presti and don't drop a tall. Brown is more versatile, Jolly is better, Fraser it is.

SO you are ignoring yourzself for a while?

OK, good idea....................................................................

 

[hellfire]

SO you are ignoring yourzself for a while?

OK, good idea....................................................................

Now, now princess, no need for the abusive PMs.

If you want blind adoration for every player on the list, look elsewhere, because here we engage in what is called "rational discussion using reason" [sometimes ]. Given that all of my football knowledge could fit on a rice bubble [as you so eloquently put it], what would you propose as an alternative to my suggestion? We play our tallest possible squad and play keepings off in the air? Innovative. I like it, you're quite sharp.

 

[Genc the Magpieman]

Now, now princess, no need for the abusive PMs.

If you want blind adoration for every player on the list, look elsewhere, because here we engage in what is called "rational discussion using reason" [sometimes ]. Given that all of my football knowledge could fit on a rice bubble [as you so eloquently put it], what would you propose as an alternative to my suggestion? We play our tallest possible squad and play keepings off in the air? Innovative. I like it, you're quite sharp.

I see you have again failed to detect the sarcasm in my post.

Not surprising I suppose,

 

[Nesian]

Out: Fraser, Johnson
In: Obie, Presti

Leroy can chop Jolly out in the ruck, and the extra responsibility won't hurt Jolly anyway. Needs to fire the **** up this weekend.
We're too top heavy at the moment, especially when Fraser and Brown are playing as woeful as they did. Fraser needs to get some touch back, he was embarrassing on the weekend. MM rants on about how the best team will front up each week, no gifted games, but Fraser continually gets a free pass where others wouldn't. Needs to go back to the VFL and prove he actually deserves a spot, because he is nowhere near it at the moment.

O'Bree walks back in after the annihilation that took place at the clearances. We also need two tall defenders for the Saints, so Reid (who played well) stays in and takes the resting ruck whether it be McEvoy or Stanley. Presti still goes to Riewoldt for mine, Maxwell can chop him out when he drops back toward goal. Keeping him to anything under 4 goals is a win in my opinion.

Jmac and Macaffer are borderline, but get held out by good performances from Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham.

Need Tooves to go to either Milne or Schneider.

This...I think you are on the money Invigoration. I would be happy for those changes. Perhaps maybe Dawes for JA. I would like to give Cloke another chance and hopefully he turns up with some agro and intensity in his game.

 

[rose jam]

The only real debate I guess is around the talls. Let's see, for team balance you need,

2 defense - Presti + ??
2 rucks - Jolly + ??
2 forwards - Cloke + ??

I'm saying they're are the locks.

This leaves us a mix of Reid, N. Brown, L. Brown, Fraser, Anthony, Dawes.
I dismiss anyone else at the end of round 2 as being any realistic hope of being picked (maybe McCaffer, not sure though, seems to be no spot with Medhurst up and about)

For me it's Reid, Fraser, and L. Brown for next week.

I'm not sold on L. Brown, he fits a versatile big man sort of role, but his mistakes really disturb me.

 

[The Sqawka]

You clearly haven't watched the first two games if you need an in-depth analysis as to why Fraser needs to go.

I'd usually agree with pretty much all of your post, but to imply that we need Fraser for structure or because he is an instant walk up best 22 player is laughable... and ill-informed and uneducated.
We won a good part of ours games like year with Cameron Wood as our number 1 ruck and Brown chopping him out. We now have a significantly better ruckman than we did in the past and Fraser isn't doing enough as his backup. If anything, I'd love to hear any sort of explanation, let alone an in-depth one, as to why it's uneducated to have him out of the side?

We were clearly too top heavy on the weekend and Fraser can't hold down any sort of KP role, so if we are insisting on using Brown (which I believe we should, he can cover a lot more holes than Fraser ever could) as a utility and all-round back up, then Fraser needs to be the one to make way.

How is dropping arguably our best defender on the weekend after 1 game beneficial to him or the team?
Not only will be one true tall defender short this weekend, but it'll mean we are dropping Reid only to have to bring him in next week... which we will most likely have to with Round 4 being against the Hawks.
It doesn't help anyone switching him in and out of the team. The most important thing for Reid and our back six at this stage is some stability.
Reid has clearly put himself ahead of all challengers at this stage for the 2nd key defender role and he deserves a sustained crack at it. It was clearly one of our biggest deficiencies last year and I don't think going with part time patch up jobs is going to benefit anyone come finals. We need games and experience under Reid's belt so when it comes to the sticky end, this time we aren't relying on Leigh Brown to miraculously outplay players to the calibre of Jonathon Brown and Buddy/Roughy, because it just isn't going to happen.

Josh Fraser isn't our VC anymore, he isn't an integral part of the team and he just isn't doing enough. His head needs to roll, just as most others would if they were performing to his standard. I can't understand at all how someone can justify giving Reid the flick and continually giving Fraser a free ride. What sort of precedent are we setting?

Well if you point is we dont need Fraser in our structures, or that he clogs up our structures please refer to below:

2009 Geelong Premiers
Hawkins/Mooney in forward with Blake and Ottens Rucking in Tandem

2008 Hawthorn Premiers
Franklin/Roughhead in forward with Taylor/Renouf/Campbell Rucking

2010 Collingwood
Cloke/Anthony in forward with Fraser/Jolly Rucking

Big men are a necessity in our game. We need two ruckman and we need 2 big men up forward. As for Leigh Brown, well he is just an additional swing man, he can ruck or go forward or back. I dont think we need to pick between Leigh Brown or Fraser, and perhaps you've forgotten the weight Fraser has carried on his shoulders for our club for ten years.

Just to extend my point, If we went in with Jolly and Leigh Brown, but without Fraser, and Jolly was injured, what would happen. Leigh Brown our only ruck option? Name one ruckman in the comp that couldn't beat Leigh Brown in the ruck and give their mids first usage? on top of that, who releaves him? does he then play 100% game time, and of course who plays on the oppositions second big man? Lets use Brisbane as an example...

Presti on Brown
Maxwell on Brennan
Harry O on Fevola

so then what happens if Leunberger rucks against Leigh Brown, and they push Mitch Clarke forward too?

The ADVANTAGE is we are able to cover all basis with Fraser in our side alongside Brown and Jolly.. and lets be honest, we are hardly top heavy with Medhurst/Didak/Davis/Thomas floating through our forward line..


Do you understand now, or do you still think you know more than MM?

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Well if you point is we dont need Fraser in our structures, or that he clogs up our structures please refer to below:

2009 Geelong Premiers
Hawkins/Mooney in forward with Blake and Ottens Rucking in Tandem

2008 Hawthorn Premiers
Franklin/Roughhead in forward with Taylor/Renouf/Campbell Rucking

2010 Collingwood
Cloke/Anthony in forward with Fraser/Jolly Rucking

Big men are a necessity in our game. We need two ruckman and we need 2 big men up forward. As for Leigh Brown, well he is just an additional swing man, he can ruck or go forward or back. I dont think we need to pick between Leigh Brown or Fraser, and perhaps you've forgotten the weight Fraser has carried on his shoulders for our club for ten years.

.......

The ADVANTAGE is we are able to cover all basis with Fraser in our side alongside Brown and Jolly.. and lets be honest, we are hardly top heavy with Medhurst/Didak/Davis/Thomas floating through our forward line..


Do you understand now, or do you still think you know more than MM?

Your post ignores one important point. The current discussion is about whether Fraser should play THIS week, not the entire season. Plenty of posters have suggested match-ups, form, team balance and, I guess, distrust of Fraser's ability against strong men, as reasons for dropping Fraser THIS week.

When Fraser shows form, he would be recalled. But please do not twist the discussion by implying that we want L Brown to play 2nd ruck all year, because I am pretty sure that we would prefer an in-form Fraser or Wood over Brown most matches of the season.

However, THIS week Fraser may find himself without senior football responsibilities, if MM decides that he may be the weakest link.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Your post ignores one important point. The current discussion is about whether Fraser should play THIS week, not the entire season. Plenty of posters have suggested match-ups, form, team balance and, I guess, distrust of Fraser's ability against strong men, as reasons for dropping Fraser THIS week.

When Fraser shows form, he would be recalled. But please do not twist the discussion by implying that we want L Brown to play 2nd ruck all year, because I am pretty sure that we would prefer an in-form Fraser or Wood over Brown most matches of the season.

However, THIS week Fraser may find himself without senior football responsibilities, if MM decides that he may be the weakest link.

I am not necessarily trying to discount what you have said here and I am certainly not going to get involved in this little bitch fight that's going on; but why is everyone automatically suggesting that Fraser is the one who should go?

Fraser has been better than Jolly in each of the first two rounds. I am not saying he is better than Jolly or that he has played well (HE HASN'T) but he has certainly been the better of the two. Fraser has been our number 1 ruck for a decade and hasn't been able to dominate so I agree that he shouldn't be given a free ride but should Jolly?? I rate Darren very highly but the guy is coming from a club that plays on a tiny ground, has more stoppages than any team in the AFL and has nowhere near the level of midfield rotations that we have. He has come in and played VERY badly. Personally I wouldn't drop either and as Dawson has shown he struggles against strong bodied forwards --> send Leroy to FF (or preferably Cloke but we know MM won't do this).

 

[half_back_flank]

I think Fraser should play this week, for no other reason other than we owe him that much for busting his gut in the ruck for us all these years. Most would say that isn't enough, but i am loyal. I will give him a couple more weeks to see if he can settle in to our new structure and find a role. If he can't do this by the end of round 4, he will need to go, we wont be able to carry him.

 

[rose jam]

It might take Jolly & Fraser 16 weeks to find the right balance in their roles, which I think is reasonable. As long as we win and they have it together close to finals, nothing else should matter.
This sort of rebalance doesn't start smoothly after a summer of training. Look at Carlton for example, they had a whole summer without Fevola and come into the season without a clue how they will structure their forward line. Suck it and see. Yeah Carlton, suck it slow

 

[Medders123]

The three issues are:

Toovey v Goldsack (Due to Lockyer's presence in the backline the past 2 weeks only one can play)
Wellingham v Beams V Sidebottom (if O'Bree comes in only 2 of these can play)
Who replaces Johnson? (i would bring in J-Mac and have one of Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham play Johno's role)

 

[pauly_moss]

Drop Fraser??? are you people crazy, whilst I did not see the Melbourne game I thought he was good against the Bulldogs. He was certainly better then Jolly in the 1st game and I will reserve judgement until I watch the replay today but sounds more like Jolly is the worry at the moment

 

[hellfire]

The three issues are:

Toovey v Goldsack (Due to Lockyer's presence in the backline the past 2 weeks only one can play)
Wellingham v Beams V Sidebottom (if O'Bree comes in only 2 of these can play)
Who replaces Johnson? (i would bring in J-Mac and have one of Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham play Johno's role)

Obree replaces Johnson. The other three guys play, problem solved.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Wellingham v Beams V Sidebottom (if O'Bree comes in only 2 of these can play)
Who replaces Johnson? (i would bring in J-Mac and have one of Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham play Johno's role)

Doesnt make any sense. Beams and Sidebottom were among out best while Wellingham's last quarter clearances were matchwinning.

O'Bree (or McCarthy or perhaps even Buckley) comes in for Johnson.

 

[soreplums]

Reid showed promise. He'll get killed against the Saints, but he showed enough to say we can persist with him.

If Cloke isn't dropped soon, I'll be fuming. Something needs to give with the guy, he has been pathetic for well over a year now. Excuses are running out.

I think he will be better playing on a CHF who leads up the ground. I'll still give him a crack at Reiwoldt if Reiwoldt plays this role on Friday NIght. I also think that it wouldn;t be such a bad idea if he was thrown up forward if our KPF aren't going anything. Could flip him with Jack (although Jack is Smaller).

Options for Reiwoldt:
Presti- may miss due to injury.
Reid- if Reiwoldt is playing mainly up the ground- has height and may be quick enough
Dawes- has a big tank and is a big body but is he too slow?
Goldsack- Is quick, does he have the tank and is he fit or strong enough?
Maxwell- Captain taking responsibility
Harry- is a lot stronger these days-but only if reiwoldt is up the ground.
N.Brown- strong, quick, doesn't have the tank and plays from behind. I don't think he has been to convincing in the magoos.
L.Brown- strong. prob not fit enough or quick enough.
Cloke- if not working up forward, is he quick enough to go with reiwoldt?

Many questions worth exploring.

 

[soreplums]

Doesnt make any sense. Beams and Sidebottom were among out best while Wellingham's last quarter clearances were matchwinning.

O'Bree (or McCarthy or perhaps even Buckley) comes in for Johnson.

would rather goldy in if he is fit over Buckley

 

[dswan]

Out Cloke in Brown

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

would rather goldy in if he is fit over Buckley

Goldy cant play midfield and/or perform a tag. All the others I mentioned can.

 

[YouIdiot]

The three issues are:

Toovey v Goldsack (Due to Lockyer's presence in the backline the past 2 weeks only one can play)
Wellingham v Beams V Sidebottom (if O'Bree comes in only 2 of these can play)
Who replaces Johnson? (i would bring in J-Mac and have one of Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham play Johno's role)

I would add to that:

Maxwell v O'Brien v Shaw (if Presti comes in only 2 of these can play)

 

[soreplums]

Goldy cant play midfield and/or perform a tag. All the others I mentioned can.

I'm not convinced that buckley can only because I'm not aware of any game where he has been given this role and has clearly won. But I'm happy for someone to point one out to me.

Goldy is a quick and desperate defender. He may be able to release shaw so he can use his legs to carry the ball up the ground more.

 

[Coin_Toss]

I have a gut feeling that Dawes will come in (maybe for J Anthony), don't ask me why but it's a strong inkling.

Out - Johnson, Anthony

In - O'Bree, Dawes

B: Toovey, L.Brown, Shaw
HB: O'Brien, Maxwell, Reid
C: Beams, Swan, Ball
HF: Davis, Dawes, Thomas
F: Didak, Cloke, Medhurst
R: Jolly, Pendlebury, Wellingham

Int: Fraser, Sidebottom, Lockyer, O'Bree

 

[The Average Tourist]

Well all the old faithfulls have been marched out. This thread took until post 41 before Drop Toovey was mentioned A NEW BIGFOOTY RECORD. A few posters would be devastated that BJ is injured because they cannot call for his head. I am not sure who called for Thomas, Sidebottom and Wellingham to go but maybe they were watching a different game to me.

If Presti is fit he will come in for BJ. Chessy will come in for some one if fit

Rusling is playing at HB to reintroduce him to football. I do not think he is even being asked to go near the football. The Club is trying to get some type of continuity into him. Can we talk about Rusling after the Sydney game please.

The Reason Dawes and The Caff came off just before 3/4 time in the reserves was they were emergencies for the Seniors and whilst they were not required they (probably with one other were rested to be able play in the afternoon if one of the 22 was run over by the Footscray Golf Cart) are held back to make sure the seniors have a full list.

The only smokey could be Jmac but he is playing as a small forward and we have plenty of them at the moment.

The area we need more from is Josh, Jolly, Leroy and Jack but I do-not think any will be playing at Victoria Park this week.

The one thing I do not understand is why Pendles is not starting in the Middle. He has been started on the bench both weeks.

Although this week I believe (if Presti Plays) Maxwell will tag Goddard and someone will keep an eye on Schnieder

 

[The Sqawka]

Your post ignores one important point. The current discussion is about whether Fraser should play THIS week, not the entire season. Plenty of posters have suggested match-ups, form, team balance and, I guess, distrust of Fraser's ability against strong men, as reasons for dropping Fraser THIS week.

When Fraser shows form, he would be recalled. But please do not twist the discussion by implying that we want L Brown to play 2nd ruck all year, because I am pretty sure that we would prefer an in-form Fraser or Wood over Brown most matches of the season.

However, THIS week Fraser may find himself without senior football responsibilities, if MM decides that he may be the weakest link.

You say 'we', and in response i am unsure who we is. i was responding to invigoration, not you. But, now that you have put your opinion forward i am more than happy to respond directly to you.

If you agree Fraser is in our sides best 22 for the year, and is important to our structures, then why would you think dropping him after 2 rounds of football, is the answer? IMO too many people think dropping players is the answer. Now i'm not saying no matter how bad his form, he plays week in and week out, but i am definitely suggesting its far too early in the year to judge someone, especially when we have semi pushed him out of his comfort zone by drafting Jolly (although a great move by our football department), and perhaps you are forgetting (or unaware) of his interupted pre season, due to a post season op.

to be dropped after round 2, your form must be pathetic, and there must be a very suitable replacement.. Fraser is important to our side all year and this week included!

 

[BigA.G]

This

I have a gut feeling that Dawes will come in (maybe for J Anthony), don't ask me why but it's a strong inkling.

Out - Johnson, Anthony

In - O'Bree, Dawes

B: Toovey, L.Brown, Shaw
HB: O'Brien, Maxwell, Reid
C: Beams, Swan, Ball
HF: Davis, Dawes, Thomas
F: Didak, Cloke, Medhurst
R: Jolly, Pendlebury, Wellingham

Int: Fraser, Sidebottom, Lockyer, O'Bree