Politics Chinese Expansionism and Imperialism

Ned_Flanders

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We arent talking about europe. I dont have a rule. Last 30 years is more important then 30- 80 years ago which was more important then 80-150 years ago and so on. You disagree with this?

Chinas CCP is currently implementing a religious holocaust, is implementing a big brother society where they track your social contribution and people disapear in the night if they say something negative about the party and has banned all opposition political movements. This is very f*** scary. And you want to talk about the USA and now Europe. The only regions that will stop china marching its ideology across the planet.

What the british did to china and hong kong in the past was horrific. But despite that Hong Kong citizens today side with the british way of life and are desperate to not become part of the CCP. That should tell you something.
you get a pass for everything 30+ years ago? fu** me...
 

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Ned_Flanders

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So Chinese expansion is fine because colonialism.
No its not. but you dont make the world any better if you sweep the sins of the past under the carpet

china still is dealing with the millstones of the cultural revolution, the republic, and the collapse of the empire. to move on it needs to work through that sh*t and resolve it. same with the usa and its conquest of native american and mexican territories. saying its more than 30 years ago, get over it, just allows those old wounds to fester

whats happening in xinjiang is a disgrace, and it is repeating the mistakes of the cultural revolution. as is giving Xi power unrivalled since Mao. this wont change with usa tariffs though, it has to be from the chinese people, and making them the enemy in this is making true change in china less likely by the month
 

Bomberboyokay

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The US have never been imperialistic.
How do you think the US went from 13 relatively compact states in eastern North America to stretching from the Arctic Circle in the north down to the South Pacific Ocean on the other side of the equator? The expansion west and beyond didn't come from amicable, democratic agreement by the (non-white) people who were already living there. US quit the British Empire but it didn't drop the English sense of entitlement.
 
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sdfc

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No its not. but you dont make the world any better if you sweep the sins of the past under the carpet

china still is dealing with the millstones of the cultural revolution, the republic, and the collapse of the empire. to move on it needs to work through that sh*t and resolve it. same with the usa and its conquest of native american and mexican territories. saying its more than 30 years ago, get over it, just allows those old wounds to fester

whats happening in xinjiang is a disgrace, and it is repeating the mistakes of the cultural revolution. as is giving Xi power unrivalled since Mao. this wont change with usa tariffs though, it has to be from the chinese people, and making them the enemy in this is making true change in china less likely by the month
The post is about Chinese expansion now, not what happened in the nineteenth century and before, and why are you sticking up for the Mexicans anyway? They were just other colonialists.
 

Ned_Flanders

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The post is about Chinese expansion now, not what happened in the nineteenth century and before, and why are you sticking up for the Mexicans anyway? They were just other colonialists.
firstly hong kong is not chinese expansion. neither is taiwan. and same with xinjiang.

the only claim is the SCS, and that fight was lost back under Obama. When the first island was being created, that was the time to stop this sh*t - support vietnam and the philippines and dredge that sh*t. everyone sat on their hands and shrugged

to make matters worse, even when the philippines won their case, they rolled over and gave up their claim

the only mob who have stayed fat this whole time is vietnam, but again, the fight was lost years ago

my personal view is focus on the next line. SCS is lost, let them waste billions reinforcing that joint
 

Seeds

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you get a pass for everything 30+ years ago? fu** me...
Can you not read? Who was talking about giving them a pass. but the people and their ideologies back then are completely irrelevant to the people and their ideologies today. no one in america has believed in invading and claiming lands for many decades. Actually more than a century. This isnt a thread about a historical score card. Its about threats today. Stop derailing the thread to talk about times that were irrelevant to today.
 
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Seeds

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firstly hong kong is not chinese expansion. neither is taiwan. and same with xinjiang.

the only claim is the SCS, and that fight was lost back under Obama. When the first island was being created, that was the time to stop this sh*t - support vietnam and the philippines and dredge that sh*t. everyone sat on their hands and shrugged

to make matters worse, even when the philippines won their case, they rolled over and gave up their claim

the only mob who have stayed fat this whole time is vietnam, but again, the fight was lost years ago

my personal view is focus on the next line. SCS is lost, let them waste billions reinforcing that joint
Stop derailing this thread with whataboutism
 

Seeds

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No its not. but you dont make the world any better if you sweep the sins of the past under the carpet

china still is dealing with the millstones of the cultural revolution, the republic, and the collapse of the empire. to move on it needs to work through that sh*t and resolve it. same with the usa and its conquest of native american and mexican territories. saying its more than 30 years ago, get over it, just allows those old wounds to fester

whats happening in xinjiang is a disgrace, and it is repeating the mistakes of the cultural revolution. as is giving Xi power unrivalled since Mao. this wont change with usa tariffs though, it has to be from the chinese people, and making them the enemy in this is making true change in china less likely by the month
No one is making the chinese people the enemy. They are all clearly the victims. ps. What exactly does deal with the cultural revolution and still move on from it today mean? it was 50 years ago. no one is even thinking about it.
 
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Baltimore Jack

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The post is about Chinese expansion now, not what happened in the nineteenth century and before, and why are you sticking up for the Mexicans anyway? They were just other colonialists.
Typical RWNJ, can only see 5 minutes back and 5 minutes forward anything else they see as irrelevant
 

Ned_Flanders

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Can you not read? Who was talking about giving them a pass. but the people and their ideologies back then are completely irrelevant to the people and their ideologies today. no one in america has believed in invading and claiming lands for many decades. Actually more than a century. This isnt a thread about a historical score card. Its about threats today. Stop derailing the thread to talk about times that were irrelevant to today.
Stop derailing this thread with whataboutism
No one is making the chinese people the enemy. They are all clearly the victims. ps. What exactly does deal with the cultural revolution and still move on from it today mean? it was 50 years ago. no one is even thinking about it.
firstly when you say stuff 30+ years doesnt matter, its giving them a pass. also read up on amercian history, they were still taking native american lands off of the tribes in the 20th century.

and its not whataboutism. i dont discount any of the disgusting behaviour china is doing. it was said however that the usa has never permanently taken others land as an imperial power, this was wrong and you then tried to loophole it by saying they havent taken anyones land in the last thirty years (so that apparently means they have never taken anyones land ever - love a reset!)

as for the cultural revolution, it still frames much of modern china. you're dealing with a country that has a former leader (mao) who is almost deified for his role in rebuilding china from the farce of the republic and japanese conquest, but at the same time his team directly oversaw groupthink imposed by the sword the likes of which we have never seen. asking a young chinese person about mao's role in that is still an uncomfortable question for most (many still argue it was sidelined from the worst of the cultural revolution, this is a tough argument to make). Speak to the people who grew up during the revolution. Most still cant talk about it (my MIL was in the red guard, she still gets emotionally distraught if this ever is on tv). even the people in their 40's still have the legacy. They grew up as kids during the aftermath, when many had hardly any food on the table. its meant many are hardwired to never let that happen again, and they are willing to burn just about anything (inc the notion of democracy) to ensure it happens.

its a cliche, but if you want to know where someone is going, you have to see where they have been. China has been humiliated by the west, raped by japan, and slaughtered internally. this history is absolutely framing the modern china young chinese want today.

and why is the cultural revolution still relevant today? firstly we have the reintroduction of the "reeducation camps" in xinjiang. this is a problem because one of the biggest weapons of the revolution was control over thought. if you told a neighbour you didnt like the local official, he would rat you out and off to reeduction you go. these are not vocational camps, they are brainwashing centres - the idea being that you get reprogramed to get on board with the think of the govt. this is bad because if its okay for muslims, who's next?

secondly we have the laws on dissent. the CCP has never allowed overt criticism, but chinese knew how to work the angles. You couldnt say boo about beijing, but you could bag the local officials and governors. even on beijing, you could question policy and outcomes as long as you supported the govts members and greater goals. this has begun to change however, and its not via the Great Firewall (thats a joke and a ridiculous number of chinese ignore the thing). Ai Weiwei is a good of the change. he has been critical of the govt for years via his art, but he was still supported because he stayed behind the line. a few years ago, the line moved. beijing become much more sensitive so he had house arrest, but could still do his art. then he was detained. he didnt change in his art or his messaging, beijing's sensitivity to his profile and voice did. one thing china does need to do to succeed is encourage innovation and thought, and for much of the 2000's this has been happening. the recent changes however are a concern that the govt is returning to the want to control thought that was in place in the 60's.

China has no interest in external expansion outside the SCS. people on here saying that they are planning to invade australia, or that they are preparing to attack the usa are insane and beyond stupid. the true danger of china is what the govt is doing internally, and the implication it has for its 1.3b people
 
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Gethelred

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Us doesnt take Land for itself. Despite being the only power left standing 70 years ago it set up the UN which made taking land illegal. It encourages countries to form democracies.

China encourages big brother style dictatorships.
Go and tell Chile how America encourages countries to form democracies. Go and tell Mohammed Mossaddegh how America encourages countries to form democracies.

You're not uneducated, Seeds, so this really is a rookie mistake from you.
 

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Ned_Flanders

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As soon as I saw the thread title I just knew that Ned_Flanders would be in here defending the CCP. Try and be a tad more subtle, son.
im actually not defending them. im saying they are on the verge of causing massive problems internally

what i am also saying is talk of them invading Australia, or using covid-19 as first strike in an attack on the USA is fantasy

read Chinese history and look at china today. they have enough issues keeping unity in their current domain, with the massive number of minorities, the Tibetans, and the Muslims in the west. do you really think they want to add assimilating bogans and rednecks to that list?
 

Seeds

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Go and tell Chile how America encourages countries to form democracies. Go and tell Mohammed Mossaddegh how America encourages countries to form democracies.

You're not uneducated, Seeds, so this really is a rookie mistake from you.
Lets not conclude that if we dont have absolutism that they dont promote democracy. Yes they have other goals as well such as promoting capitalism over socialism or ensuring economic security. But democracy has also been one of their goals even if its not all the time. The rise of democracy across the world has been dramatic after the us became the dominant world power in the world.
 

Gethelred

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Lets not conclude that if we dont have absolutism that they dont promote democracy. Yes they have other goals as well such as promoting capitalism over socialism or ensuring economic security. But democracy has also been one of their goals even if its not all the time. The rise of democracy across the world has been dramatic after the us became the dominant world power in the world.
...

In both situations, they undermined democratically elected governments using military coups and replaced them with dictators. You are genuinely not this stupid, nor are you unaware of the wide variety of sh*t America have gotten up to behind the scenes that indicate that their supposed preference for democracy is something that is spoken rather than done.
 

sdfc

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firstly hong kong is not chinese expansion. neither is taiwan. and same with xinjiang.

the only claim is the SCS, and that fight was lost back under Obama. When the first island was being created, that was the time to stop this sh*t - support vietnam and the philippines and dredge that sh*t. everyone sat on their hands and shrugged

to make matters worse, even when the philippines won their case, they rolled over and gave up their claim

the only mob who have stayed fat this whole time is vietnam, but again, the fight was lost years ago

my personal view is focus on the next line. SCS is lost, let them waste billions reinforcing that joint
The absorption of Xinjiang is probably too late to overturn now. The Chinese claim to Taiwan is tenuous at best. Why don't the Taiwanese have the right to self determination? The majority of the citizens of Hong Kong appear to prefer British law.

I agree, the Chinese land grab in the South China Sea should have been checked years ago. Unfortunately there wasn't the will and the US had already burnt a chunk of its political capital in Iraq anyway.
 
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Seeds

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...

In both situations, they undermined democratically elected governments using military coups and replaced them with dictators. You are genuinely not this stupid, nor are you unaware of the wide variety of sh*t America have gotten up to behind the scenes that indicate that their supposed preference for democracy is something that is spoken rather than done.
As i said they were also fighting against socialism which is an enemy to both capitalism and democracy. socialism was rife across the continent at the time. Socialists may of been democratically elected but at the time they were all reverting to dictatorships everywhere else across the world. the west was worried that if socialism soared across the world it would eventually take their own countries ending their own democracies. Understand there was a bigger game. Dont treat the geopolitical interventions in a country as independent.
 

Ned_Flanders

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The absorption of Xinjiang is probably too late to overturn now. The Chinese claim to Taiwan is tenuous at best. Why don't the Taiwanese have the right to self determination? The majority of the citizens of Hong Kong appear to prefer British law.

I agree, the Chinese land grab in the South China Sea should have been checked years ago. Unfortunately there wasn't the will and the US had already burnt a chunk of its political capital in Iraq anyway.
Taiwan is still claiming to be the rightful ruler of mainland China . Its political class doesn't want independence , it wants to keep the door open for reunification on its terms.

Unfortunately Taiwan has been a Chinese possession since the 1600's, and native Taiwanese are a minority and have little wealth or power (comparatively). Taiwan is mostly Han Chinese, many of whom trace back to the mainland not that far away
 

Gethelred

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As i said they were also fighting against socialism which is an enemy to both capitalism and democracy. socialism was rife across the continent at the time. Socialists may of been democratically elected but at the time they were all reverting to dictatorships everywhere else across the world. the west was worried that if socialism soared across the world it would eventually take their own countries ending their own democracies. Understand there was a bigger game. Dont treat the geopolitical interventions in a country as independent.
If you want to believe that I cannot stop you, but this is in open defiance of history.
 

sdfc

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Taiwan is still claiming to be the rightful ruler of mainland China . Its political class doesn't want independence , it wants to keep the door open for reunification on its terms.

Unfortunately Taiwan has been a Chinese possession since the 1600's, and native Taiwanese are a minority and have little wealth or power (comparatively). Taiwan is mostly Han Chinese, many of whom trace back to the mainland not that far away
Sorry for the late reply but I don't get the support for Chinese aggression toward Taiwan and elsewhere.

The Taiwanese ruling party is an independence party.

Taiwan has been governed from the mainland for about four years of the past 125. Race is irrelevant.
 

Ned_Flanders

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Sorry for the late reply but I don't get the support for Chinese aggression toward Taiwan and elsewhere.

The Taiwanese ruling party is an independence party.

Taiwan has been governed from the mainland for about four years of the past 125. Race is irrelevant.
on the first, they call themselves that but they never declare it. wonder why...

as for the latter, thats my point. there is no independant taiwan, its a han outpost

my view is taiwan doesnt want independence, so why push them into it. both sides want the status quo, and it means fu** all to us.

there are people on this planet dying for their people to be free and independent, and none of them are in taiwan. lets give a fu** about them
 

sdfc

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on the first, they call themselves that but they never declare it. wonder why...

as for the latter, thats my point. there is no independant taiwan, its a han outpost

my view is taiwan doesnt want independence, so why push them into it. both sides want the status quo, and it means fu** all to us.

there are people on this planet dying for their people to be free and independent, and none of them are in taiwan. lets give a fu** about them
Declaring independence would cause a shitstorm.

You said the Taiwanese political class wants reunification, that's clearly untrue.

That they're Han Chinese is irrelevant.

The PRC isn't happy with the status quo. Hence the aggression.

You're using trouble elsewhere as cover for your support of PRC aggression.
 

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