Climate Change Arguing

[mcnulty]

No deflection, I am dealing with facts. The fact is the following statement was false, evidenced by your own numbers:

"On a per capita basis, Australia’s carbon footprint, including exports, surpasses China by a factor of 9, the US by a factor of 4 and India by a factor of 37."

I gave no numbers. I commented on a graph you presented that admitted its own shortcomings. Presumably in the hope no one would notice.

 

[Power Raid]

I gave no numbers. I commented on a graph you presented that admitted its own shortcomings. Presumably in the hope no one would notice.

actually you did provide numbers and as you highlight with those figures the outrageous statements, to which was the context, were grossly misleading

thank you

 

[Seeds]

because even with all the issues of nuclear, it has the same safety record as renewables (which is safe)

further the reactors the west are adopting are fail safe meaning you can bomb them without concern

until someone blows a plant up with a missile. Then it kills everyone.

renewables may kill workers from negligence (either their own or their employers). Nuclear plants kills innocent children. And destroy the land for generations to come.

 

[Power Raid]

until someone blows a plant up with a missile. Then it kills everyone.

renewables may kill workers from negligence (either their own or their employers). Nuclear plants kills innocent children. And destroy the land for generations to come.

please provide a link of the worst nuclear disaster from a credible source such as the international energy agency

then refer the the deaths per kwh by all sources

you'll find the reality vs your proposition is quite different

 

[Seeds]

please provide a link of the worst nuclear disaster from a credible source such as the international energy agency

then refer the the deaths per kwh by all sources

you'll find the reality vs your proposition is quite different

you keep pointing out the deaths per kwh. Nuclear is far worse in that stat then renewables. its not an argument you can use to support nuclear over renewables. In fact its an argument to support renewables.

Death rates per unit of electricity production

Death rates are measured based on deaths from accidents and air pollution per terawatt-hour of electricity.

ourworldindata.org

And when you say credible stat are you looking for one that doesnt try to capture all the people who have died from cancer in the years after? You just want the direct reported deaths?

the above table (which has nuclear as worse then renewables) only considers 4000 deaths from chernobyl. But in reality we know its many fold higher. somewhere between a 10s of thousands number and 100s of thousands number.

The true toll of the Chernobyl disaster

Covered up by a secretive Soviet Union at the time, the true number of deaths and illnesses caused by the nuclear accident are only now becoming clear.

www.bbc.com

And its not just the deaths with nuclear. when someone dies in a solar plant it doesnt involve the land for hundreds of kms around being uninhabitable for 50-100 years. The diplacement of millions of people whose lives are changed forever. All the sick people who dont actually die but have more miserable lives as a result. From chernobyl these people are in the millions. You cant discount this. Its huge.

Solar plant deaths also result from adults taking risks in their employment. Adults who have made a deliberate choice and know their is a risk. Nuclear plants kill kids sleeping in their beds who had no choice. The deaths arent the same.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

And still the clods constantly talk down renewables and every day they get proven wrong

They have been doing it for years, and the kicks in the arse they get, give them nose bleeds, but next day here they are again

More and more renewables come on line and every day their wack job views get laughed at

 

[Power Raid]

you keep pointing out the deaths per kwh. Nuclear is far worse in that stat then renewables. its not an argument you can use to support nuclear over renewables. In fact its an argument to support renewables.

Death rates per unit of electricity production

Death rates are measured based on deaths from accidents and air pollution per terawatt-hour of electricity.

ourworldindata.org

And when you say credible stat are you looking for one that doesnt try to capture all the people who have died from cancer in the years after? You just want the direct reported deaths?

the above table (which has nuclear as worse then renewables) only considers 4000 deaths from chernobyl. But in reality we know its many fold higher. somewhere between a 10s of thousands number and 100s of thousands number.

The true toll of the Chernobyl disaster

Covered up by a secretive Soviet Union at the time, the true number of deaths and illnesses caused by the nuclear accident are only now becoming clear.

www.bbc.com

And its not just the deaths with nuclear. when someone dies in a solar plant it doesnt involve the land for hundreds of kms around being uninhabitable for 50-100 years. The diplacement of millions of people whose lives are changed forever. All the sick people who dont actually die but have more miserable lives as a result. From chernobyl these people are in the millions. You cant discount this. Its huge.

Solar plant deaths also result from adults taking risks in their employment. Adults who have made a deliberate choice and know their is a risk. Nuclear plants kill kids sleeping in their beds who had no choice. The deaths arent the same.

The International Energy Agency and other credible sources disagrees with with your position

Further, I don't think anyone is calling for a 1950s design, 1960s built "plutonium generator" that produced power. I think most sensible people would look at fuel rods that can't go critical and can be hit by a missile or 747. Modern reactors simply release helium if they lose integrity.


Australia currently has two research reactors, just acquired 8 for the navy plus another 2 likely plus the army is looking at 10 and either CSIRO, the air force or a third agency is looking at 2 (further it is bi partisan)

That's 24 reactors

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I’ve had a long battle with climate despair. Now I’m leaving the ‘denial machine’ to their demons | Clive Hamilton

As those most responsible for the crisis recede into history, our energy is better spent responding to the world we have created

www.theguardian.com

 

[Seeds]

I’ve had a long battle with climate despair. Now I’m leaving the ‘denial machine’ to their demons | Clive Hamilton

As those most responsible for the crisis recede into history, our energy is better spent responding to the world we have created

www.theguardian.com

Why would he have a beef over immigration? Climate is a global problem. Immigration doesnt increase global emissions.

Plus the world is still well within a pathway of reducing temp changes to less then 2 degrees. This guy clearly has not read an IPCC report in the past decade.

 

[Kwality]

you keep pointing out the deaths per kwh. Nuclear is far worse in that stat then renewables. its not an argument you can use to support nuclear over renewables. In fact its an argument to support renewables.

Death rates per unit of electricity production

Death rates are measured based on deaths from accidents and air pollution per terawatt-hour of electricity.

ourworldindata.org

And when you say credible stat are you looking for one that doesnt try to capture all the people who have died from cancer in the years after? You just want the direct reported deaths?

the above table (which has nuclear as worse then renewables) only considers 4000 deaths from chernobyl. But in reality we know its many fold higher. somewhere between a 10s of thousands number and 100s of thousands number.

The true toll of the Chernobyl disaster

Covered up by a secretive Soviet Union at the time, the true number of deaths and illnesses caused by the nuclear accident are only now becoming clear.

www.bbc.com

And its not just the deaths with nuclear. when someone dies in a solar plant it doesnt involve the land for hundreds of kms around being uninhabitable for 50-100 years. The diplacement of millions of people whose lives are changed forever. All the sick people who dont actually die but have more miserable lives as a result. From chernobyl these people are in the millions. You cant discount this. Its huge.

Solar plant deaths also result from adults taking risks in their employment. Adults who have made a deliberate choice and know their is a risk. Nuclear plants kill kids sleeping in their beds who had no choice. The deaths arent the same.

Japan has a history & its going back to nuclear. You cant discount this.

 

[Gough]

I like the idea of pressing to Dutton to reveal where a Liberal government would build these nuclear power stations. If you accept the people of Dickson are the most politically disengaged in the world outside of MTG's Congressional District, it's hard to imagine even them being the thrilled at the prospect of one in their own backyard and I doubt too many other electorates would feel any different.

 

[Kwality]

I like the idea of pressing to Dutton to reveal where a Liberal government would build these nuclear power stations. If you accept the people of Dickson are the most politically disengaged in the world outside of MTG's Congressional District, it's hard to imagine even them being the thrilled at the prospect of one in their own backyard and I doubt too many other electorates would feel any different.

Why would Dutton bite ?
Just wait for the east coast energy **** up to play out:

AEMO's Westerman says energy crisis more challenging than South Australia blackout

AEMO boss says challenges of energy crisis underline need for switch to renewables, and to build more generation, firming and transmission.

reneweconomy.com.au

AEMO’s Westerman says energy crisis more challenging than South Australia blackout​

Giles Parkinson 6 September 2022
The head of the Australia Energy Market Operator, Daniel Westerman, has described the recent energy crisis and market suspension as more challenging – “by an order of magnitude” – than the South Australia blackout that occurred nearly six years ago.
In a wide ranging speech to energy company bosses on Tuesday, Westerman said the main lesson from the energy crisis has been the need to accelerate the transition to renewables, and this was happening in Australia’s main grid with another boost in new generation registrations this year.
“I don’t have words to describe how challenging this period was for our operational teams,” Westerman said of the unprecedented decision to suspend the market at 2pm on June 15, after the market had proved un-manageable under the previously imposed price cap.
“Our most seasoned operators describe this as the most difficult period they’ve ever experienced,” he said. “More challenging than the cascading impact of the Callide C4 explosion a year earlier … more challenging than the system black in South Australian in 2016 … each by an order of magnitude.”
Westerman said it was clear that the best way for Australia to relieve the price spikes in the wholesale electricity market over the longer term is to break the dependency between commodity prices and electricity prices.
“And that is, of course, moving to renewable generation where the fuel is our sun, wind and water,” he said.

“Our GenCost report with the CSIRO shows wind and solar are, by far, the cheapest forms of generation. Even with the cost of new transmission & grid integration. And even in today’s environment of elevated input costs and supply chain constraints.”
The big lessons from the energy crisis had been the need for collaboration to overcome the “big hairy challenges”, particularly as the grid surges towards periods of 100 per cent renewables within three years, and for the need for more generation, more firming, and more transmission.
“It worked in this operational turmoil, it’s working to improve our connections process, and it’s how we are working towards operating the power system at periods of up to 100% renewable generation,” he said.
“Now one thing is for sure. This will not be last pothole we hit on Australia’s rapid energy transition.”

 

[Gough]

Why would Dutton bite ?
Just wait for the east coast energy **** up to play out:

AEMO's Westerman says energy crisis more challenging than South Australia blackout

AEMO boss says challenges of energy crisis underline need for switch to renewables, and to build more generation, firming and transmission.

reneweconomy.com.au

AEMO’s Westerman says energy crisis more challenging than South Australia blackout​

Giles Parkinson 6 September 2022
The head of the Australia Energy Market Operator, Daniel Westerman, has described the recent energy crisis and market suspension as more challenging – “by an order of magnitude” – than the South Australia blackout that occurred nearly six years ago.
In a wide ranging speech to energy company bosses on Tuesday, Westerman said the main lesson from the energy crisis has been the need to accelerate the transition to renewables, and this was happening in Australia’s main grid with another boost in new generation registrations this year.
“I don’t have words to describe how challenging this period was for our operational teams,” Westerman said of the unprecedented decision to suspend the market at 2pm on June 15, after the market had proved un-manageable under the previously imposed price cap.
“Our most seasoned operators describe this as the most difficult period they’ve ever experienced,” he said. “More challenging than the cascading impact of the Callide C4 explosion a year earlier … more challenging than the system black in South Australian in 2016 … each by an order of magnitude.”
Westerman said it was clear that the best way for Australia to relieve the price spikes in the wholesale electricity market over the longer term is to break the dependency between commodity prices and electricity prices.
“And that is, of course, moving to renewable generation where the fuel is our sun, wind and water,” he said.

“Our GenCost report with the CSIRO shows wind and solar are, by far, the cheapest forms of generation. Even with the cost of new transmission & grid integration. And even in today’s environment of elevated input costs and supply chain constraints.”
The big lessons from the energy crisis had been the need for collaboration to overcome the “big hairy challenges”, particularly as the grid surges towards periods of 100 per cent renewables within three years, and for the need for more generation, more firming, and more transmission.
“It worked in this operational turmoil, it’s working to improve our connections process, and it’s how we are working towards operating the power system at periods of up to 100% renewable generation,” he said.
“Now one thing is for sure. This will not be last pothole we hit on Australia’s rapid energy transition.”

If we want nuclear power to be Australia's future the Libs need to win the next election and getting cracking with it straight away given the time it takes to get online. That being the case, it's not unreasonable to then expect some pretty serious policy detail coming from his direction.

 

[Kwality]

Plus the world is still well within a pathway of reducing temp changes to less then 2 degrees.

Is that the world including or excluding China, Russia & India ? Is gas a renewable or not?

I dont recall anyone revisiting the numbers since the 90s. 100% is a variable

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Plus the world is still well within a pathway of reducing temp changes to less then 2 degrees. This guy clearly has not read an IPCC report in the past decade.

You mean their one from February, that said:

"The world faces unavoidable multiple climate hazards over the next two decades with global warming of 1.5°C (2.7°F). Even temporarily exceeding this warming level will result in additional severe impacts, some of which will be irreversible. Risks for society will increase, including to infrastructure and low-lying coastal settlements." ?

 

[Kwality]

If we want nuclear power to be Australia's future the Libs need to win the next election and getting cracking with it straight away given the time it takes to get online. That being the case, it's not unreasonable to then expect some pretty serious policy detail coming from his direction.

You arent still in Opposition.
You are correct that energy will be a big issue in 2025 & we will have had another 3 years of energy **** up down the east coast.

 

[Gough]

You arent still in Opposition.
You are correct that energy will be a big issue in 2025 & we will have had another 3 years of energy **** up down the east coast.

Dutton wants nuclear to be part of the debate which is up to him but he can't just do that without detailing at least rudimentary policy on how he's going to make this happen because it the moment he's sounding a lot like someone spending imaginary lotto wins.

 

[Kwality]

Dutton wants nuclear to be part of the debate which is up to him but he can't just do that without detailing at least rudimentary policy on how he's going to make this happen because it the moment he's sounding a lot like someone spending imaginary lotto wins.

The budget isnt a constraint in Opposition. See Mr Chalmers facing funding election promises only a few months on.

 

[Number37]

The budget isnt a constraint in Opposition. See Mr Chalmers facing funding election promises only a few months on.

It isn't just funding.
If you want to solve our electricity problems with nuclear it will take decades.
Decades AFTER you have already made all the plans.
So far Dutton has offered his usual empty rhetoric and nothing else.
If he is fair dinkum about it he would at the very least engage some experts to formulate a plan.
But he isn't fair dinkum. Like all the other people crowing about our electricity woes.
It is a political wedge, no more, no less.
That is what we have become.

 

[Kwality]

If we want nuclear power to be Australia's future the Libs need to win the next election and getting cracking with it straight away given the time it takes to get online. That being the case, it's not unreasonable to then expect some pretty serious policy detail coming from his direction.

Exactly, now is not the time.

 

[Kwality]

Like all the other people crowing about our electricity woes.
It is a political wedge, no more, no less.

 

[Taylor]

The next little period of Earth is going to be a tricky one for the green movement because finally the reality and cost of clean energy to the lifestyle of regular people will hit home - there will need to be a big bad threat or enemy or other to blame it all on. High energy prices are great for renewables and nuclear because the production and construction, respectively, makes them very competitive against the established, reliable and dependable fossil fuel productions. But it needs to go further.

As happened with covid, I suspect there will be a study showing total emissions from that period and it won't be enough to reach the desired emissions reduction - but the cost will be too much to bear for politicians.

But yes, there needs to be serious policy put together on nuclear. Actual plans, actual costings and it should be in place before the hard times start so it's always on the minds of people - especially if the cost is less than has been previously wasted by various governments.

Building a new industry for Australia, securing our way of life with cheap and clean power could position us to take over manufacturing globally if there is still green production policy standards in place to get involved in global trade.

We are either going to spend a fortune on renewables or nuclear, one way or another it's happening.

 

[Power Raid]

I like the idea of pressing to Dutton to reveal where a Liberal government would build these nuclear power stations. If you accept the people of Dickson are the most politically disengaged in the world outside of MTG's Congressional District, it's hard to imagine even them being the thrilled at the prospect of one in their own backyard and I doubt too many other electorates would feel any different.

The first and second was built in the western suburbs of Sydney


my punt is the third in SA will be at Woomera

being a 10-20MW system supporting a 100MW wind/ solar facility



the fourth would be the Pilbara


this obviously excluded the 10 the navy has ordered and the 10 to be supplied to the army

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

This is unbelievable and disturbing.
Jailed for 8 months in Australia for holding up traffic.

Climate activist who blocked traffic on Sydney Harbour Bridge jailed for at least eight months

Lawyers for Deanna ‘Violet’ Coco, who stopped traffic for 25 minutes in April, say it is ‘outrageous’ their client was refused bail before an appeal next year

www.theguardian.com

 

[quotemokc]

This is unbelievable and disturbing.
Jailed for 8 months in Australia for holding up traffic.

Climate activist who blocked traffic on Sydney Harbour Bridge jailed for at least eight months

Lawyers for Deanna ‘Violet’ Coco, who stopped traffic for 25 minutes in April, say it is ‘outrageous’ their client was refused bail before an appeal next year

www.theguardian.com

About time.

Love all these people clamouring on about peaceful protests when she blocked traffic including an ambulance and carried with her a modified explosive.

"Coco had pleaded guilty to seven charges including using or modifying an authorised explosive not as prescribed and resisting a police offer during arrest."