Collingwood’s Josh Thomas, Lachie Keeffe accept two-year bans for taking banned drug clenbuterol

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Gone Critical said:
These are drug dealers, often users themselves. It doesnt have to have be a common occurence just something done for the occasional odd reason. Maybe they had a little clen left over but too small an amount to sell on, maybe an accident, maybe one of thier numpty mates told them a little clen in the mix gave their batch an extra burst and they believed that. I could go on.

Do you really think drug dealers run their business only by making sound financial and business decisions. They do all sorts of dumb sh-t. They are generally not the smartest blokes going around. It could easily happen on the odd occasion for a hundred different reasons.
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I dont buy the plausible deniability story.Give us 100% full and frank details - ie from the players and the club and you might have a chance to convince some of us, but until then its all BS PR spin. Why are drug dealers buying Clen? You said yourself they are dumb. If they are so dumb why are they in possession of such expensive drug? They can buy something a 10% of the price to do the same job.

There are a thousands, what ifs maybe's what about's etc. If you want us to believe a story then tell us the full truth. Simple!
 
Lockyer24 said:
How it got into their system is irrelevant, 2 year ban is the system working. Just a shame it doesn't apply for evidence buriers...yet.
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perhaps those who conceal evidence should face harsher penalties for not keeping proper medical records. this obviously targets the behaviour of management and health professionals.
 

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Gone Critical said:
The gym world thrives on the dubious science, the pseudo medicine and grandiose claims about various supplements. Its what got Essendon into trouble and their gullible belief thatDank was some sort of supplement guru rather than a science graduate iith limited knowledge but a massive ego and drive to push his claims.

Things like clenbuterol dont let you "shred and bulk to your hearts content". they may provide a small enhancement to the work you are otherwise doing. It was preseason, Keefe and Thomas were on a heavy cardio workout, they do carry minimal weight compared to a lot of other guys on the listafter being in the system for a number of years

I just find it unlikely that these 2 guys went looking for a fat burning drug that probably does nothing else when they clearly dont struggle with skinfolds in the first place. Especially a drug that it would have only taken a moment to discov rwas banned and would cost them 2 years. It would be unbelievable to think the club themselves were behind prescribing it. That they would then go to the local gym guru for a bit of extra advice in the climate of seeing the Essendon guys going through their saga just pushes belief a little too farfor mine.

The accidental taking just makes more sense to me. Not apologising for them just see the alternative as too far fetched to believe.
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Playing devil's advocate here. In the scenario where they used the drug as a PED then this is the reason why they'd have chosen it, whether its purported benefit is real or not.

It's a rough call to dismiss basic nutrition as bro science. Yeah, really gullible that - you need carbohydrate and protein. No really. And exercise to maintain lean muscle mass, oh the funny s**t you hear in a gym.

And that's coming from someone who doesn't use any of these supplements - including protein powder. And rarely eats red meat. Now that gets you off side with people in a gym. :p
 
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Gone Critical said:
Maybe true if you are considering sound business practice 101. However this is drug dealing. This is an "industry" full of crims, users, no hopers and con men. Not rocket scientists. Perhaps in the cold hard light of day a bit of clen being mixed with coke doesn't make sense but I could think of any number of senarios where a numpty drug dealer might have done a little clen into his coke. Doesnt have to be a common occurence just has to have occurred in this instance.
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No... Just no... it doesnt work like that... You may get sugars or binding agents that pack wieght or even chemistry to bind a (eg a methyl) reaction to change a property for uniqueness but thats more about profit or Synthetic effects...

Trust me... no one sat down with a vile of clenbuterol and dripped IC's into Coke... A synthetic design would need to be added chemically in the manufacturing process and makes no sense...

Unless there is a strict vainity issue with ravers now...

Ie weight watchers Coke...
 
the PILL said:
No... Just no... it doesnt work like that... You may get sugars or binding agents that pack wieght or even chemistry to bind a (eg a methyl) reaction to change a property for uniqueness but thats more about profit or Synthetic effects...

Trust me... no one sat down with a vile of clenbuterol and dripped IC's into Coke... A synthetic design would need to be added chemically in the manufacturing process and makes no sense...

Unless there is a strict vainity issue with ravers now...

Ie weight watchers Coke...
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Back in my day product differentiation was altering the ratio of gear to talcum powder. The kids these days.
 
Gone Critical said:
Where do you get those figures from?
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https://books.google.com.au/books?i...ved=0CCcQ6AEwAmoVChMI2fLn2umdxwIVh56UCh1Jvg9o

well heres one example, 135 people hospitalised in spain, you can google the others, theres was also 70 odd hospitalised in china, similarly theres been outbreaks in mexico, italy, belgium, germany that resulted in hospitalisations. in italy it was referred to as epidemic.

theres also a paper by the nsw government where one study showed in 63 cases of clen abuse 35 were hospitalised and one death. the link between clen and tachycardia is established. the bodybuilder zyzz was believed to have died from mixing coke and clen, although his family claim a heart defect.
 
Conspiracy theory would have them going the contaminated drugs story to help change the 3 strikes illicit drugs policy in return for .....
 
the PILL said:
No... Just no... it doesnt work like that... You may get sugars or binding agents that pack wieght or even chemistry to bind a (eg a methyl) reaction to change a property for uniqueness but thats more about profit or Synthetic effects...

Trust me... no one sat down with a vile of clenbuterol and dripped IC's into Coke... A synthetic design would need to be added chemically in the manufacturing process and makes no sense...

Unless there is a strict vainity issue with ravers now...

Ie weight watchers Coke...
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You realise this isnt Breaking Bad. These guys didnt have Chemistry degrees and are not science boffs. Half of them would struggle to find their own arse with both hands. I dont profess any great knowledge of the drug world but I live just off Victoria St Richmond and see plenty of these MENSA types plying their trade on any given day. I find it easy to believe they could be stupid.

Keeffe and Thomas could have been stupid also, monumentally so if they knowingly took Clen with its virtual no benefit policy for them and the clear and obvious reasons why it was a major risk. On balance the dumb drug dealer seems easier to swallow.

Also I am not a great one for the conspiracy theories. 2 dumb footballers dabble in PEDs outside club supervision seems a much easier sell than lets concoct an untrue story and all those associated risks that may come back to bite us just to save a bit of face for Thomas and Keeffe. Just cant see the AFL and Colingwoods motivation for that. If its just the 2 boys concocting the story then Pies and the AFL would have to accept that version and move on. No conspiracy involved there.
 
Gone Critical said:
You realise this isnt Breaking Bad. These guys didnt have Chemistry degrees and are not science boffs. Half of them would struggle to find their own arse with both hands. I dont profess any great knowledge of the drug world but I live just off Victoria St Richmond and see plenty of these MENSA types plying their trade on any given day. I find it easy to believe they could be stupid.

Keeffe and Thomas could have been stupid also, monumentally so if they knowingly took Clen with its virtual no benefit policy for them and the clear and obvious reasons why it was a major risk. On balance the dumb drug dealer seems easier to swallow.

Also I am not a great one for the conspiracy theories. 2 dumb footballers dabble in PEDs outside club supervision seems a much easier sell than lets concoct an untrue story and all those associated risks that may come back to bite us just to save a bit of face for Thomas and Keeffe. Just cant see the AFL and Colingwoods motivation for that. If its just the 2 boys concocting the story then Pies and the AFL would have to accept that version and move on. No conspiracy involved there.
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Sarah Palin: "i can see Russia from my backyard here in Alaska"
 
Chameleon75 said:
https://books.google.com.au/books?i...ved=0CCcQ6AEwAmoVChMI2fLn2umdxwIVh56UCh1Jvg9o

well heres one example, 135 people hospitalised in spain, you can google the others, theres was also 70 odd hospitalised in china, similarly theres been outbreaks in mexico, italy, belgium, germany that resulted in hospitalisations. in italy it was referred to as epidemic.

theres also a paper by the nsw government where one study showed in 63 cases of clen abuse 35 were hospitalised and one death. the link between clen and tachycardia is established. the bodybuilder zyzz was believed to have died from mixing coke and clen, although his family claim a heart defect.
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Thanks, interesting
 
TerryWallet said:
Sarah Palin: "i can see Russia from my backyard here in Alaska"
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Well put forward the counter argument. Tell me about the well regulated, efficient world of the average drug dealer
 
Remarkable post this...

LukeParkerno1 said:
It is called being smart. Bans could have been backdated. You miss a season, so what. You do an ACL you miss a season, no difference. Instead continue to play and you can still cop 2 years. That is silly.
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Gone Critical said:
You realise this isnt Breaking Bad. These guys didnt have Chemistry degrees and are not science boffs. Half of them would struggle to find their own arse with both hands. I dont profess any great knowledge of the drug world but I live just off Victoria St Richmond and see plenty of these MENSA types plying their trade on any given day. I find it easy to believe they could be stupid.

Keeffe and Thomas could have been stupid also, monumentally so if they knowingly took Clen with its virtual no benefit policy for them and the clear and obvious reasons why it was a major risk. On balance the dumb drug dealer seems easier to swallow.

Also I am not a great one for the conspiracy theories. 2 dumb footballers dabble in PEDs outside club supervision seems a much easier sell than lets concoct an untrue story and all those associated risks that may come back to bite us just to save a bit of face for Thomas and Keeffe. Just cant see the AFL and Colingwoods motivation for that. If its just the 2 boys concocting the story then Pies and the AFL would have to accept that version and move on. No conspiracy involved there.
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Reports that say that someone is stupid are always interesting to me, because as we know, there is stupidity; there are things we know are stupid. We also know there is unknown stupidity; that is to say we know there are some stupid things we do not know. But there is also unknown unknown stupidity – the things we don't know we don't know are stupid. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
 
Best thing that could've happened with players taking party drugs and being laced with performance enhancing drugs. I dare say players now will be thinking twice about dabbling in unknown backyard drugs.
 
DERIBERATE said:
Reports that say that someone is stupid are always interesting to me, because as we know, there is stupidity; there are things we know are stupid. We also know there is unknown stupidity; that is to say we know there are some stupid things we do not know. But there is also unknown unknown stupidity – the things we don't know we don't know are stupid. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
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Not sure what you are getting at here.
 
shouldnt you be in the clinic or something ;)

blackcat said:
I think Josh and Lachie are copping what Ahmed Saad copped, a whack that is really meant for the Essendon players, they would otherwise either have been swept under the rug, or given a 6 month backdated, so half a season, now they get their 2 seasons, effectively their career, cos Windy Hill stuffed up with their risk management and plausible deniability. Paul Little should be writing a check out to these three players, they are making a down payment on the opprobrium deserved for Essendon.

but lets tell the ferkin truth. They doped with clen. Like the rest of the AFL listed players. Not axiomatically of poor character, just footballers and pro sportsmen. value neutral. Because not telling the truth and not maintaining some rigorous risk management alliteration and some disciplined plausible deniability got us all into this clusterfukc mess didntit
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DonsRule said:
And if you think you're innocent? You take a deal just to be nice. Mate, thats dumb.



Look the 2 Pies boys handled themselves well.

But there is no comparison between them and the Essendon case unless you're an idiot, and that goes both ways inc the Ess supporters slagging off on the Pies.



If you were charged with a crime you believed you were innocent of, would you pleade guilty just to get it over and done with? I wouldn't.


It leaves the likes of ASADA either the ability to abuse proces - and I don;t think that is what they have done here - and force a penalty knowing said person can't afford to defend, or get tired of defending themselves.
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It depends on the assumption that you work from.
1. Assume that they did nothing wrong and actually are innocent, and accepting a ban to make it all go away in a shorter timeframe would be silly.
2. Assume that they did do something wrong, knew it, and tried to cover it up, and coming clean at the start to avoid all this prolonged pain and potentially fighting for the players to have significant fault, and all of a sudden it looks like a good deal.
Obviously yourself and other EFC supporters will start their assumption from position one, but what if it's not what happened? Just put the shoe on the other foot for a minute and consider the fact that all this pain might have been caused by a cover up rather than actual innocence. Could have had the investigation done in a matter of months, penalties handed down and probably just about back to playing footy.
 
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