Collingwood List Management Thread

[Rusty Beam]

I'd be eager for you to name the 'players like him'. Namely, mid-sized players who are terrific one-on-one both in the air and on the ground, tackle really well and make good decisions with the ball.

Not sure there are heaps to be honest. Probably most like McCaff is Crameri (who is miles better than Caff ).

I personally don't think we should trade Caff as he appears to have no real currency from what I read on BF (obviously not club relevant) and in the media (same). As Pies fans know he is much, much, more important than the pick we would get for him.

I am open to trading the Sack though. I would think he would be looking for opportunity. He seems to have greater currency outside of the Pies than I would have originally believed before all this trade talk. Only issue will be the ultimate retirements (probably end of next year) of BJ and Leon.

It would be great to hold onto Sack as cover but that is a pipe dream. Hopefully by then we will have the next potential cover ready to step up as cover.

A real issue is our lack of blooding players. Much like Geelong of the past few years we haven't really given any newbies a shot this year or last (Reid?/Blair?). Sooner or later (hopefully after another flag this year) we need to give Rounds, Young, Keefe, J Thomas, Sinclair etc games to our premiership window stays open as long as possible (like Geelong).

 

[soreplums]

Not sure there are heaps to be honest.
It would be great to hold onto Sack as cover but that is a pipe dream. Hopefully by then we will have the next potential cover ready to step up as cover.

A real issue is our lack of blooding players. Much like Geelong of the past few years we haven't really given any newbies a shot this year or last (Reid?/Blair?). Sooner or later (hopefully after another flag this year) we need to give Rounds, Young, Keefe, J Thomas, Sinclair etc games to our premiership window stays open as long as possible (like Geelong).

more the angle I was coming from when considering moving on Johnno and Leon. I understand the slippery slope, but in terms of blooding and freeing up more $$ in that three year gap before Pendle and Daisy are Vet listed- and trying to keep together the rest of the group- how else can we do it?

 

[Scodog10]

I'd be eager for you to name the 'players like him'. Namely, mid-sized players who are terrific one-on-one both in the air and on the ground, tackle really well and make good decisions with the ball.

This may seem harsh, but I'd have Brent behind A Walker, Porplyzia and Le Cras (based on career achievements to date). There are two other players that play a similar role but don't have the runs on the board yet in Crameri and Mayne. It's very hard to split the three of them at this stage and I don't really think you'd miss out on anything no matter who you chose.

It could be argued that Le Cras and Porplyzia are small forwards, but they both do the things listed at least as well as Brent (for now) if not better and they both play bigger than their size suggests when up forward.

There is a dearth of this type of player in the league atm so it is hard to gauge his value. With that in mind it's definitely more advantageous to keep him rather than trade him.

 

[mdc]

Not sure there are heaps to be honest. Probably most like McCaff is Crameri (who is miles better than Caff ).

Not a bad comparison, but completely disagree with this. Crameri gets targeted a helluva lot more than Caff ever did, and also isn't anywhere near the defensive or ground-level player.

This may seem harsh, but I'd have Brent behind A Walker, Porplyzia and Le Cras (based on career achievements to date). There are two other players that play a similar role but don't have the runs on the board yet in Crameri and Mayne. It's very hard to split the three of them at this stage and I don't really think you'd miss out on anything no matter who you chose.

Walker's having a good season, but he's a genuine third tall type with great athleticism and middling one-on-one ability. The other 2 are obviously much better players (when Porps is fit) but both are leading small forwards who mark on the lead rather than great contested players.

It could be argued that Le Cras and Porplyzia are small forwards, but they both do the things listed at least as well as Brent (for now) if not better and they both play bigger than their size suggests when up forward.

The Caff would outmark both of them one-on-one 9/10. He's also a much better tackler than either. Again, I totally agree that the other 2 are better, more skilled players, but similar type?

 

[Ed D]

I find it funny that any player with a smidge of talent is a prized possession that is invaluable and will be going nowhere.

There should be very few players that are indispensible, and we should be more active in trying to upgrade talent. I actually think Buckley will work more in this manner, he'll likely be more objective than Mick and hopefully look at players for their attributes and what they bring to the side, rather than any personal likes or dislikes (though I think Mick has gotten better in this regard). I think Bucks will potentially be even more ruthless.

If MacCaffer or someone similar whom would be at the bottom end/fringe of our best 22, can help us get a player or prospect with a high level of talent, I think we ought to look at it.

I think you'd only do that if there was a player that was happy/wanting to leave the club or that the club actually didn't want, because otherwise you're running the risk of breaking the side apart by pissing off the players.

 

[Scodog10]

Walker's having a good season, but he's a genuine third tall type with great athleticism and middling one-on-one ability. The other 2 are obviously much better players (when Porps is fit) but both are leading small forwards who mark on the lead rather than great contested players.

The Caff would outmark both of them one-on-one 9/10. He's also a much better tackler than either. Again, I totally agree that the other 2 are better, more skilled players, but similar type?

I'd say they're all alike in the type of role they play within their respective teams, which is all we're after isn't it? As Macaffer is definitely a role player rather than a star.

On Porps and Le Cras. They obviously wouldn't be able to come into the team and replace Macaffer as a like for like, but at a pinch they could play a role which resembles his i.e instead of winning plenty of one on one contested ball, like Macaffer, they'd win more on the lead.

You originally asked us to name players like Macaffer (not the same as him) and I think those two, due to their ability to play a similar role as the third marking option, fit the bill. If you don't agree that's fine

Just bear in mind though that if you do exclude those two it reduces an already diminished player pool for that role. Which suggests that the role isn't needed in most teams structure which then in-turn makes it easier to draft someone to replace him (as Dundalis originally said), because the competition from other clubs is lessened.

On a side-note another player like Macaffer with plenty of ability to play up forward is Robert Murphy.

 

[Dundalis]

I'd be eager for you to name the 'players like him'. Namely, mid-sized players who are terrific one-on-one both in the air and on the ground, tackle really well and make good decisions with the ball.

Well no two players are exactly alike. But there are plenty of players that could play a similar role who can do the majority of those things, maybe one or two things they don't do quite as well as Macaffer, but in two other disciplines they are better.

Add O'Keefe to the list people have mentioned. Andrew Embley. Ricky Petterd. Angus Monfries. Paul Chapman. I also think there are a number of players whom don't necessarily play Macaffers exact role for their current side due to structures that have the attributes to excel there.

 

[mdc]

Just bear in mind though that if you do exclude those two it reduces an already diminished player pool for that role. Which suggests that the role isn't needed in most teams structure which then in-turn makes it easier to draft someone to replace him (as Dundalis originally said), because the competition from other clubs is lessened.

Or conversely, it suggests that most teams don't have anyone good enough to play that role.

The reason I asked the question is because it seems to me the similar types of players are all pretty damn good: Robert Murphy is a good one, Ryan O'Keefe is another, but moreso he resembles midfielders that float forward - Bartel, Swan, etc (as forwards).

Macaffer's fitness is poor atm, so he's being pigeonholed a bit, but skill-set wise he resembles a midfielder who's great overhead more than a true forward. I'm pretty confident that in time, if he really improves his fitness, he'll be a very good inside mid for us.

And Dundalis, this is not "all of our players are stars", I'd be perfectly happy to move McCarthy or Goldsack if they so wished. I'd even prefer to move your boy Keefe. But Macaffer I rate very highly. Before last year most people were doubting his ability to make the 22 at all, but he made that step comfortably. With a full pre-season next season, he'll make another step up.

 

[mdc]

Well no two players are exactly alike. But there are plenty of players that could play a similar role who can do the majority of those things, maybe one or two things they don't do quite as well as Macaffer, but in two other disciplines they are better.

Add O'Keefe to the list people have mentioned. Andrew Embley. Ricky Petterd. Angus Monfries. Paul Chapman. I also think there are a number of players whom don't necessarily play Macaffers exact role for their current side due to structures that have the attributes to excel there.

O'Keefe and Chapman are fair calls, but again, look at the level of player we're talking about. The bolded players are totally different: Embley and Monfries are rubbish 1-on-1 and avoid contact at all costs and Petterd is again more like Andrew Walker than Macaffer.

 

[Scodog10]

Or conversely, it suggests that most teams don't have anyone good enough to play that role.

The reason I asked the question is because it seems to me the similar types of players are all pretty damn good: Robert Murphy is a good one, Ryan O'Keefe is another, but moreso he resembles midfielders that float forward - Bartel, Swan, etc (as forwards).

Macaffer's fitness is poor atm, so he's being pigeonholed a bit, but skill-set wise he resembles a midfielder who's great overhead more than a true forward. I'm pretty confident that in time, if he really improves his fitness, he'll be a very good inside mid for us.

True, and I reckon as good a test as we'll ever get will come via next years draft (we won't be trading Macaffer and GWS compensation wouldn't accurately reflect his value IMO). Young Sam Mayes from S.A looks to be one of the most polished and talented young players going around. He fits the mould of what we're discussing perfectly so depending on where he goes I reckon we'd get our answer.

 

[Dundalis]

Or conversely, it suggests that most teams don't have anyone good enough to play that role.

The reason I asked the question is because it seems to me the similar types of players are all pretty damn good: Robert Murphy is a good one, Ryan O'Keefe is another, but moreso he resembles midfielders that float forward - Bartel, Swan, etc (as forwards).

Macaffer's fitness is poor atm, so he's being pigeonholed a bit, but skill-set wise he resembles a midfielder who's great overhead more than a true forward. I'm pretty confident that in time, if he really improves his fitness, he'll be a very good inside mid for us.

And Dundalis, this is not "all of our players are stars", I'd be perfectly happy to move McCarthy or Goldsack if they so wished. I'd even prefer to move your boy Keefe. But Macaffer I rate very highly. Before last year most people were doubting his ability to make the 22 at all, but he made that step comfortably. With a full pre-season next season, he'll make another step up.

I think there's other players that could play the position similarly to Macaffer that don't necessarily due to the structure at their club.

Robinson at Carlton would be one. Shannon Hurn. Just off the top of my head. There would be others. Redden at Brisbane maybe, though I haven't seen that much of him.

In regards to your last paragraph, all I can say is thank god you aren't in charge of the football department. Macaffer has proven he's a solid tough role player, and naught more. He's 23 years old, not some 17 year old with limitless potential. I'm sure with time he could make the transition to inside mid, but maybe not, and if he did, he wouldn't be a star because he's not that talented. He doesn't have the footy brain to be a great mid, nor the hand and foot skills. That's not to say he's lacking in any of those areas, he's just not elite in any of them. He's the stereotypical jack of all trades, master of none type. He's far more replaceable than a player with Keefe's skillset.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Re: 2011 Draft Discussion

Would love to Draft Kersten as he is Quite Highly Rated in last years Carnival and Could be a bit like Darling.

I think Witts will be put on the Senior List

Yeah, I think you are probably right Dave, although I would far prefer to rookie him. Still, good to get another developing big on the list. Our projected ruck stocks are okay for now - to be honest we don't have many projected areas of weakness... Maybe another KPF or speedy small forward.

 

[Dundalis]

Re: 2011 Draft Discussion

If the player is projected as a first or second round draft pick then they probably deserve a spot on our main list.

Obviously it would be to the clubs benefit to rookie list him, but if I were him and were a good chance of going in the first two rounds, I'd be looking to secure my spot on an AFL list and would nominate for the draft if only offered a rookie listing.

 

[blaze036]

O'Meara

Goldsack + macaffer and 2nd round pick to GWS for O'Meara? what do u guys reckon. Goldsack and macaffer both ok but not needed and we havnt got a young superstar at our club for a couple of years, pies recruiters seem fairly keen on him.

 

[mattys123]

Re: O'Meara

Goldsack + macaffer and 2nd round pick to GWS for O'Meara? what do u guys reckon. Goldsack and macaffer both ok but not needed and we havnt got a young superstar at our club for a couple of years, pies recruiters seem fairly keen on him.

Change the 2nd round to a first round and GWS may stay at the table for more then 30 seconds.

To get O'Meara you will have to win the bidding war, because he will go number 1 in the mini draft this year, no matter how many picks GWS trade off for.

The problem is I can see one club "going nuts" and giving away something silly for the kid, although from what I've seen of him I can understand why this will happen.

Personally, I can't see us getting a deal done with GWS unless we offer something special, rather then 3 decent parts of a deal, GWS will want one massive get and 2-3 steak knives thrown in.

 

[danielnajdek]

Re: O'Meara

Would need to offer a big name player and our first rounder to even have a sniff IMO

Only big name player I can think of is Dids but he aint going anywhere so nah we don't have a chance in hell of getting him unfortuntely.

 

[Scodog10]

Re: O'Meara

As for the quality of the offer, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be enough to get O'Meara. However it may just be enough to get us a pick in the mini draft, but that all depends on what GWS are after.....

 

[italia_champions69]

Re: O'Meara

Who's that?

 

[Bay Pie]

Re: O'Meara

Rumour has it, and Emma Quayle has alluded to it, is that Gold Coast are going to offer pick 4 this year for O'Meara.

You won't beat that without handing over a top notch player at our club.

 

[danielnajdek]

Re: O'Meara

Rumour has it, and Emma Quayle has alluded to it, is that Gold Coast are going to offer pick 4 this year for O'Meara.

You won't beat that without handing over a top notch player at our club.

Seems unfair with all the gun young players they got last year

Basically both new clubs are gonna get heaps out of that deal if it happens.

 

[Zahki]

Re: O'Meara

Club should go very hard at getting him, but don't give up the farm. We're at the peak of our powers and have the opportunity to secure one of the best young talents in the country, it's an opportunity that can't be missed.

 

[danielnajdek]

Re: O'Meara

I liked the look of that 17 year old from Vic Country. Whitfield or something like that was his name

 

[Scodog10]

Re: O'Meara

I liked the look of that 17 year old from Vic Country. Whitfield or something like that was his name

GUN!! that is the best way to describe that kid, its a shame that he misses out on this scheme by about one month!

 

[Knightmare]

Re: O'Meara

Rumour has it, and Emma Quayle has alluded to it, is that Gold Coast are going to offer pick 4 this year for O'Meara.

You won't beat that without handing over a top notch player at our club.

Would be the way to go for both clubs. O'Meara is worth pick 4 + their 2nd rounder. Great for GC because they inject the talent later and in that time get to maximise their draft picks. Would be a top 2 talent in a stronger draft. The way to go.

For a while I have conceded even if it is to myself that we won't get O'Meara - and that doesn't particularly worry me. Really looking at Stringer instead with a deal of Goldsack + player (eg. J.Mac) + 1st rounder or something along these lines. 3rd pick in minidraft will get Stringer with hopefully a Port Adelaide going after perhaps Brodie Grundy with that 2nd pick.

 

[PROAthlete]

yeh i agree with what your saying completing